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Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live
(35 minutes later)
12.15am GMT
00:15
Elle Hunt
ABC reporter Danny Tran is in Ballarat for the royal commission. He says Gail Furness’ description of Pell’s evidence and reasons for being deceived as “completely implausible” was met with applause.
Applause from Ballarat as Gail Furness says Cardinal Pell's evidence &reasons for being deceived are "completely implausible" @abcnewsMelb
Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb
Tran reported heated scenes earlier.
Groans & catcalls in Ballarat town hall as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm the Education Office deceived him about Searson @abcnewsMelb
Laughter in Ballarat as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm he was "the new boy on the block" who was "known to be outspoken" @abcnewsMelb
12.10am GMT
00:10
Some more analysis from Rome from Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner.
We have not seen a fiery, aggressive Pell here in the Verdi Room, even though he is often described that way. But it is clear that the cardinal from Australia is becoming more assertive in his testimony.
On the first day, he acknowledged hearing references to abuse that he never followed up. Then, on Tuesday, he insisted he never heard about suspicions that Gerald Ridsdale was a serial pedophile.
Now he has gone a step further: saying he was purposely not told about abuse because his fellow officials knew that he would shake-up the status quo. Gail Furness, it is fair to say, believes none of it.
12.08am GMT
00:08
Elle Hunt
On Sunday, Miranda Devine published a column in the Daily Telegraph, criticising the “unrestrained vitriol spewed” at Pell, “the first [churchman] to respond with a plan to help victims”.Clare Linane of Ballarat published an open letter in response on her personal Facebook page.
She wrote that her husband, brother and cousin were sexually abused by Brother Edward Dowlan; her husband is currently in Rome.
Her post, in which she responds to Devine’s column point by point, is worth reading in full, but here’s an excerpt:
[On] your concern about George Pell given his frail health. Here I will lift my hands and declare my total lack of objectivity. Miranda, after being abused at 11, the way my husband was treated by the representatives of the Church was heart-breaking, and was an abuse all over again. He went to Towards Healing for help in 2006; they funded approximately 10 counselling sessions then refused to fund anymore. They wanted him to ‘come to the table’ to settle this matter. In other words, they wanted him to accept a payout, sign a confidentiality agreement, and go away.
This left him with no choice but to pursue legal avenues; a cruel, frustrating process that nearly killed him. At the absolute lowest point in his life, where he had lost his ability to work, lost most of his assets, lost half of his family, lost his business, lost his sense of self-esteem, and battled suicidal thoughts daily, the representatives of the Church – the Church of which George Pell is effectively Australian CEO – demonstrated no compassion whatsoever. We were tiny ants taking on an elephant; we would pay $5,000 to have a QC represent us, only to have the Church postpone on a technicality on the day. Not once, but three times they did this to us. I often said to my husband, “I’m sure they think if they keep drawing this out you’ll eventually crack and just top yourself”. He didn’t.
I know that he is just one of hundreds who were treated with total disregard for their well-being by Church representatives; not just 40 years ago, but recently, whilst George Pell was in charge, and therefore ultimately accountable. So Miranda, no; I am not worried about George’s ‘frail health’ whilst he testifies. I’m sure he will be fine. I’m far more worried about my husband and friends.
Linane concludes by saying that the royal commission is not about Pell, or the survivors as individuals: it is about a commitment to action by the Church to implement, among other things, a national redress scheme and program of education and peer support.
Her post has received considerable coverage but Devine has not publicly responded, though she did refer to the responses to her column, some of which were “bile-flecked”, in quoting a since-deleted tweet.
This is what it's come to. Get Pell. And this is one of the least bile-flecked responses to my column. https://t.co/aKHyZYA8LD
She also tweeted a link to “some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept” care of the Catholic Weekly.
Some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept - behind the Royal Commission headlines @catholic_weekly https://t.co/pGFNzEkqoE
12.05am GMT
00:05
Furness: “There is reference... to Father Searson stabbing to death a bird in front of the children.”
Pell: “Yes.”
Furness: “Did that come to your attention?”
Pell: “At some stage I think, I don’t know whether the bird was already dead but at some stage I certainly was informed of this bizarre happening.”
Furness: “Does it matter whether the bird was dead or it was stabbed when it was dead?”
Pell: “Not really. Not really.”
Father Peter Searson stabbed a bird to death with a screwdriver in front of children, inquiry hears #CARoyalComm
12.02am GMT
00:02
Pell says the senor figures around him deceived him about the extent of abuse within the Catholic church
Furness doesn’t accept Pell’s evidence that he was unaware of the abuse inflicted on children by Ridsdale and Searson. She also does not accept Pell’s evidence that that senior figures who worked alongside him who knew of the abuse deliberately didn’t tell him about it.
Furness says; “So we now have the CEO deceiving you and the archbishop deceiving you and concealing information from you as well as Bishop Mulkearns and one or more of the consultors in the Ballarat diocese?”
Pell: “That is correct.”
Furness: “It is an extraordinary position, Cardinal.”
Pell: “Um, counsel, this was an extraordinary world. A world of crimes and cover ups. And people did not want the status quo to be disturbed.”
Furness: “You put yourself in this world as being the person who would disturb the status quo, do you?”
Pell: “I not only disturbed the status quo but when I became archbishop, I turned the situation right around so that the Melbourne Response procedures were light years ahead of all this obfuscation and prevarication and deception.”
[Note - The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.]
Furness: “I suggest that, indeed, you did have knowledge in relation to Father Ridsdale’s misconduct either during in or shortly after the consultor’s meeting in 1982. What do you say to that?”
Pell: “I repeat that that is inaccurate.”
Furness: “I suggest to you that the Catholic Education Office properly and adequately briefed you in relation to Father Searson.”
Pell: “No,they certainly did not properly and adequately brief me. There is no evidence to that effect whatsoever.”
Earlier in the proceedings, Furness showed the commission a long list of concerns about Searson that has been presented to Pell at the time. However, Pell said the list, which included allegations of animal abuse and using the children’s toilet, was not enough to reveal Searson’s extensive abusing history.
Updated
at 12.05am GMT
11.53pm GMT
23:53
For the second time in two days, Furness tells Pell his evidence is 'implausible' and adds it is 'designed to deflect blame'
Furness says to Pell: “Cardinal, I have to suggest to you that your evidence in relation to not being briefed properly or adequately by the Catholic Education Office [about Searson abusing children], and the reasons for that, are completely implausible.”
Pell replies; “Um, counsel, I can only tell you the truth, the whole story of Searson is quite implausible and the cover-up is equally implausible. I can only tell you the way it was as far as I’m concerned.”
Furness: “I suggest,Cardinal, that the evidence you have given has been designed to deflect blame from you on doing nothing in relation to Father Searson that had any real effect after the delegation came to you.”
Pell: “Um, that is not accurate because I took up the matter with the archbishop himself.”
Yesterday, Furness put it to Pell that it was implausible he did not know that notorious paedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was abusing children, given it was common knowledge and that Pell held a senior position within the Ballarat diocese, where Ridsdale was abusing. Pell denied the allegation.
Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb
Updated
at 12.08am GMT
11.46pm GMT
23:46
An extraordinary exchange between McClellan and Pell
Pell tells the commission that the reason everyone around him was informed of Searson’s comprehensive and long term abusing of children, but he wasn’t, was because the Catholic Education Office knew he would ask “inconvenient questions” if he was informed.
Furness asked Pell; “Why would it be they would single out you not to tell information to when they’d readily told it to the archbishop and the vicar general who had the power?”
Pell replies: “Because they realised very clearly I was not cut from the same cloth.”
Furness: “So they picked you out as someone who would have taken decisive action so, therefore, they would keep from you information to enable you to take that action, is that right?”
Pell: “That might be overstating their position but they might not have been certain I would take decisive action but they would have been fearful that I would and pretty certain that I would have asked all sorts of inconvenient questions if I’d been better briefed.”
McClellan intervenes here. He says Pell’s evidence doesn’t make sense. If the Catholic Education Office didn’t want questions to be asked about the abuse, why would they have told other senior figures about Searson’s behaviour, McClellan asks.
McClellan says to Pell; “it makes no sense at all for the education office to want to cover up to you, does it?”
Pell: “I don’t think that follows in anyway whatsoever.”
It was quite an extraordinary exchange.
Laughter heard - I believe - possibly coughing - as Pell persists that others would have feared he would have asked inconvenient questions
Updated
at 12.03am GMT
11.38pm GMT11.38pm GMT
23:3823:38
Pell: "I don't think I was obliged to do anything more than I did" Pell: 'I don't think I was obliged to do anything more than I did'
Furness: “Your job as auxiliary bishop was for you to apply your mind and experience to matters that came to you in the role as auxiliary bishop, isn’t that right?”Furness: “Your job as auxiliary bishop was for you to apply your mind and experience to matters that came to you in the role as auxiliary bishop, isn’t that right?”
Pell: “That is correct.”Pell: “That is correct.”
Furness: “What did you do to apply your mind to the list of grievances that was provided to you to consider for yourself as auxiliary bishop what could and should be done in relation to [child abuser] Father Searson?”Furness: “What did you do to apply your mind to the list of grievances that was provided to you to consider for yourself as auxiliary bishop what could and should be done in relation to [child abuser] Father Searson?”
Pell: “Um ... I went and sought advice from the executive arms that were regularly used. I thought that was adequate.”Pell: “Um ... I went and sought advice from the executive arms that were regularly used. I thought that was adequate.”
Furness: “What do you say about the adequacy of it now, Cardinal?”Furness: “What do you say about the adequacy of it now, Cardinal?”
Pell: “No, it was plainly inadequate.”Pell: “No, it was plainly inadequate.”
Furness: “What should you have done?”Furness: “What should you have done?”
Pell: “I don’t think I was obliged to do anything more than I did because it took it to theArchbishop and asked what should be done.” Pell: “I don’t think I was obliged to do anything more than I did because it took it to the archbishop and asked what should be done.”
Furness: “Then when you say that it was plainly inadequate, what was it that was inadequate in relation to your conduct?”Furness: “Then when you say that it was plainly inadequate, what was it that was inadequate in relation to your conduct?”
Pell: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say any such thing. What I said was inadequate was the information and briefing given to me.”Pell: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say any such thing. What I said was inadequate was the information and briefing given to me.”
He then adds he could have perhaps been a little more pushy.He then adds he could have perhaps been a little more pushy.
One lady, listening to the evidence next to me, yells an expletive on hearing Cardinal Pell's comments @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalCommOne lady, listening to the evidence next to me, yells an expletive on hearing Cardinal Pell's comments @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.40pm GMT at 12.00am GMT
11.30pm GMT11.30pm GMT
23:3023:30
Pell says he was only told about the allegations against Father Searson in a “non-specific way”.Pell says he was only told about the allegations against Father Searson in a “non-specific way”.
Furness: “I’m sorry, when you say a non-specific way, perhaps you can tell us what it was that you were told about allegations of sexual misconduct against Searson?”Furness: “I’m sorry, when you say a non-specific way, perhaps you can tell us what it was that you were told about allegations of sexual misconduct against Searson?”
Pell: “No. I can’t remember exactly what was alleged.”Pell: “No. I can’t remember exactly what was alleged.”
McClellan asks: “Now, having been told, if you say, in a generalised way of allegations of sexual misconduct, did you not think it necessary for you and as the auxiliary bishop to satisfy yourself that those allegations have been properly investigated and have been properly resolved?”McClellan asks: “Now, having been told, if you say, in a generalised way of allegations of sexual misconduct, did you not think it necessary for you and as the auxiliary bishop to satisfy yourself that those allegations have been properly investigated and have been properly resolved?”
Pell replied that he took the Catholic education office’s word that the complaints has been dealt with appropriately. Pell replied that he took the Catholic Education Office’s word that the complaints had been dealt with appropriately.
McClellan: “That is not quite my question. I asked you whether you accepted the responsibility to ensure that they had been promptly investigated and properly resolved.”McClellan: “That is not quite my question. I asked you whether you accepted the responsibility to ensure that they had been promptly investigated and properly resolved.”
Pell: “I didn’t have an investigative capacity.”Pell: “I didn’t have an investigative capacity.”
Pell: I took the Catholic education office on their wordMcClellan: you were again deceived, were you?Pell: YesPell: I took the Catholic education office on their wordMcClellan: you were again deceived, were you?Pell: Yes
Updated
at 12.01am GMT
11.22pm GMT11.22pm GMT
23:2223:22
The Guardian’s correspondent in Rome, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has filed some analysis on the request from survivors of child sexual abuse to meet with Pope Francis in Rome;The Guardian’s correspondent in Rome, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has filed some analysis on the request from survivors of child sexual abuse to meet with Pope Francis in Rome;
Will he or won’t he? It is far from clear whether Pope Francis will meet with a group of abuse survivors who have come to Rome from Australia to witness Cardinal Pell’s testimony. The pope has met with survivors of sex abuse twice since he was elected pope in 2013: once in the Vatican and once on his trip last year to the US.Will he or won’t he? It is far from clear whether Pope Francis will meet with a group of abuse survivors who have come to Rome from Australia to witness Cardinal Pell’s testimony. The pope has met with survivors of sex abuse twice since he was elected pope in 2013: once in the Vatican and once on his trip last year to the US.
He has been criticised at times for not meeting more frequently with victims: he did not meet with victims on his recent trip to Mexico and he did not respond to a demand by a survivor, Peter Saunders, when Saunders was in Rome recently to attend a meeting of the pope’s special commission to develop policies to prevent and address clerical sexual abuse.He has been criticised at times for not meeting more frequently with victims: he did not meet with victims on his recent trip to Mexico and he did not respond to a demand by a survivor, Peter Saunders, when Saunders was in Rome recently to attend a meeting of the pope’s special commission to develop policies to prevent and address clerical sexual abuse.
The pope is often seen as a man who disdains being pressured into any decision or being forced into a meeting due to media pressure. But the Catholic church is facing new scrutiny on several fronts: from questions about the adequacy of the church’s policy on when to report suspected abuse, to damaging revelations that have emerged about Cardinal Pell – and the questions he failed to ask – in his commission testimony, to a new report out of Pennsylvania about decades of alleged abuse of hundreds of children and attempts to cover up the abuse.The pope is often seen as a man who disdains being pressured into any decision or being forced into a meeting due to media pressure. But the Catholic church is facing new scrutiny on several fronts: from questions about the adequacy of the church’s policy on when to report suspected abuse, to damaging revelations that have emerged about Cardinal Pell – and the questions he failed to ask – in his commission testimony, to a new report out of Pennsylvania about decades of alleged abuse of hundreds of children and attempts to cover up the abuse.
If Pope Francis feels he needs to more forcefully address the abuse issue, a meeting with the survivors could be a good way to start.If Pope Francis feels he needs to more forcefully address the abuse issue, a meeting with the survivors could be a good way to start.
You can follow Stephanie’s updates on Twitter here.You can follow Stephanie’s updates on Twitter here.
Survivors have formally requested a meeting with @pontifex. They leave for Australia on Friday, haven't heard back from Vatican yet.Survivors have formally requested a meeting with @pontifex. They leave for Australia on Friday, haven't heard back from Vatican yet.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.30pm GMTat 11.30pm GMT
11.15pm GMT11.15pm GMT
23:1523:15
Furness reminds Pell that a delegation came to him in 1989, when he held the position of regional bishop, to complain about Searson’s behaviour towards children.Furness reminds Pell that a delegation came to him in 1989, when he held the position of regional bishop, to complain about Searson’s behaviour towards children.
Before this meeting, Pell was provided with a list of grievances against Searson, Furness says, producing the list for the commission. That list was put together by the Catholic Education Office.Before this meeting, Pell was provided with a list of grievances against Searson, Furness says, producing the list for the commission. That list was put together by the Catholic Education Office.
The list included various health and safety issues in relation to Searson’s behaviour. A small group of children were shown a dead body in a coffin, and also witnessed Searson’s cruelty to an animal.The list included various health and safety issues in relation to Searson’s behaviour. A small group of children were shown a dead body in a coffin, and also witnessed Searson’s cruelty to an animal.
The complaint also said Searson used the children’s toilets and harassed them, as well as demanded children attend reconciliation with him without warning and one-on-one.The complaint also said Searson used the children’s toilets and harassed them, as well as demanded children attend reconciliation with him without warning and one-on-one.
However, Pell says he had “no adequate background briefing on the long-term problems [of Searson] at all”.However, Pell says he had “no adequate background briefing on the long-term problems [of Searson] at all”.
Justice Peter McClellan interjects. He points out that Pell had been briefed by the education office about grievances against Searson.Justice Peter McClellan interjects. He points out that Pell had been briefed by the education office about grievances against Searson.
Pell replies, “The education office, through the local person, did not give me anything like adequate information.”Pell replies, “The education office, through the local person, did not give me anything like adequate information.”
Cd. Pell says the Education Office lied to him about extent of problems with Searson.Q: "they deceived you?" A: "Yes" #CARoyalCommCd. Pell says the Education Office lied to him about extent of problems with Searson.Q: "they deceived you?" A: "Yes" #CARoyalComm
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.19pm GMTat 11.19pm GMT
11.06pm GMT11.06pm GMT
23:0623:06
Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged.Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged.
Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat.Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat.
Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?”Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?”
Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to take your word for that.”Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to take your word for that.”
Furness: “Well, rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?”Furness: “Well, rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?”
Pell: “Yes.”Pell: “Yes.”
Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?”Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?”
Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.”Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.17pm GMTat 11.17pm GMT
10.54pm GMT10.54pm GMT
22:5422:54
From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten.From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten.
Shorten said he finds it "disturbing" and "challenging" listening to Pell's answers in Royal Comm. @MelissaLDavey @murpharooShorten said he finds it "disturbing" and "challenging" listening to Pell's answers in Royal Comm. @MelissaLDavey @murpharoo
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.57pm GMTat 10.57pm GMT
10.51pm GMT
22:51
'We want a meeting with the pope' - survivors
Child sexual abuse survivors from Ballarat watching Pell’s evidence in Rome have just held a press conference calling for a meeting with head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis.
Their statement said, “We are flying back to Australia on Friday and we’d like to think we can get a meeting.”
Survivors read from statement re meeting Pope. They said they were told to fax request which they did pic.twitter.com/Hp4pUhfp5M
Survivor Philip Nagle said, “We’re getting a little bit tired of hearing what George is saying up there one the stand. We want to be heard. We want someone to show that they care about us.
“You guys are watching Pell up there. He’s giving us nothing. He’s turned his back on us. We want a commitment from the pope that children will be safe.”
Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said; “We’ve seen here a lack of systems that were able to identify and deal with any problems.”
Too many people said “I didn’t think it was my job” to protect children, he told reporters.
Another survivor, Andrew Collins, said the group sent an email requesting a meeting with the pope last week.
“We were told we could only make a formal request via fax”. The survivors sent the fax, “but we still haven’t said anything,” he said.
Nagle said the survivors were no longer interested in Pell’s offer to meet with them. It was Pope Francis that they wanted to hear from, he said, and he wanted a commitment that no child would be abused within the church again.
Updated
at 11.00pm GMT
10.33pm GMT
22:33
Morning adjournment
The evidence will resume in about 15 minutes.
This morning, Furness focussed on the widespread abuse at the hands of Peter Searson. Complaints made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never been acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little, the commission heard. Searson died in 2009 without having faced charges.
There is nothing to suggest Pell knew Searson was abusing children at the time, however Pell did say he viewed Searson as “one of the most unpleasant priests I met”.
Updated
at 10.34pm GMT
10.30pm GMT
22:30
Child abuse was Archbishop Little's 'blind-spot'
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is painting a picture of just how many people around Pell knew that Searson was abusing children, sexually, physically and verbally.
Pell was unaware of this abusing. Archbishop Frank Little, however, was told repeatedly abuse the complaints against Searson, Furness says. One teacher refused to send her class to Searson alone.
Furness: “Now it’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal, that at this stage. that Father Searson should have been stood down at the very least?”
Pell: “That is correct.”
Furness: “Do you think this is an example of what Bishop Connors referred to as Archbishop’s Little’s blind-spot?”
Pell: “Archbishop Little for some reason seemed incapable or unable to deal with Father Searson, or even to provide any adequate level of information about the situation. Yes, you could say one way of describing it is a blind-spot.”
Updated
at 10.39pm GMT
10.22pm GMT
22:22
Furness tells the commission; “... Father Searson had a tape recorder going while having confession... Father Searson asked children to kneel between his legs when they go to confession.”
These concerns were raised to archbishop Little, Furness said. She said Searson also used a tape recorder to record these confessions.
Furness; “Those complaints, taken together with the previous complaints I referred to, increased the suspicion of Father Searson in relation to his conduct with girls. Doesn’t it? And particularly having children kneel between his legs when giving confession is quite abhorrent, isn’t it?”
Pell: “Yes, it is... it would have been would have to have been established by an inquiry and it is abhorrent and something to be investigated.”
Furness: “When you say it needed to be established from an inquiry, it’s clear that Father Searson accepted that he had been playing the tape recorder. So in fact you don’t need an investigation because you have the allegation and the allegation being admitted. Don’t you?”
Pell: “Yes, I said at least an investigation.That would have been referred to some person in authority for effect of action.”
Furness: “It was referred to someone in authority wasn’t it?Because it was referred from the vicar general to the Archbishop. It’s hard to imagine more authority than that.”
Updated
at 10.37pm GMT
10.13pm GMT
22:13
Furness says a complaint about Searson was made to an educational consultant at the Catholic Education Office, Allan Dooley.
Furness says a mother phoned Dooley “because her daughter was concerned that he [Searson] made reference to her daughter’s weight and tickled her on the stomach and said ‘don’t ever look at yourself in the shower’.”
Pell: “That is terrible.”
I can't imagine how the survivors sit through this. Case after case, this priest, that brother, this offence - it's overwhelming at times
Updated
at 10.14pm GMT
10.09pm GMT
22:09
Pell says child abuser Peter Searson was 'one of the most unpleasant priests I met'
Furness asks Pell when he first became aware of parish priest Peter Searson who had two years worth of complaints against him including that he was sexually abusing children, had tortured animals and had brought a gun to school.
Furness: “Now, when did Father Searson first come to your attention after you were made auxiliary bishop?”
Pell: “I can’t recall exactly. I presume it would be the first time I visited the [Sunbury] parish, probably in connection with a confirmation.”
Furness: “Do you recall now whether you had formed an early view of him?”
Pell: “Um, yes. He was a disconcerting man. In fact, at his worst moments he could be described as one of the most unpleasant priests that I’ve met, although he didn’t show that side of his personality to me very often. But I quickly learned that he was a difficult customer.”
Updated
at 10.28pm GMT
10.03pm GMT
22:03
Furness is presenting Pell with historical documents detailing the abuses of parish priest Peter Searson. As previously mentioned, Searson had numerous complaints made against him to senior church figures, was never reported to police, and died without ever being charged.
Furness shows Pell a complaint “expressing the view that Searson was psychologically unsuitable to be a pastor or the pastor of that [Sunbury] parish”.
Documents show that senior church staff decided to constantly review the situation rather than report Searson, the commission hears.
“I think it was completely inadequate,” Pell says.
Updated
at 10.28pm GMT
9.57pm GMT
21:57
Pell says when he was auxiliary bishop, he appointed Denis Hart as his vicar general and that “it was a very successful appointment”.
“I think his work as vicar general, especially in the matter of sexual abuse, constituted a very, very significant advance and improvement. I knew him a bit, I spoke to him off and on, I encouraged him. Father Hart was a formidably good administrator.”
Updated
at 10.28pm GMT
9.50pm GMT
21:50
Furness is now questioning Pell about a parish priest, Peter Searson. The royal commission heard last year that complaints about Searson, made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little.
Complaints came in from parents daily and ranged from concerns about Searson sexually abusing children to his bizarre way of running confession by having children sit on his lap. He also displayed strange behaviours such as carrying a gun to school and cruelty towards animals.
Pell says that Little “had a lot of information which he never made available to me” about Searson.
“I discovered that somebody had prepared a list of infractions, a page and a half. I was never informed that this had been prepared and I was never informed about the variety and the seriousness of the problems in Sunbury.”
Searson died in 2009 without ever facing charges. The commission has previously heard he abused children in parishes and schools across three districts over more than a decade.
George Pell: "I didn't feel any need to request access to files" (of priests in his region) when auxiliary priest of Melbourne
Updated
at 10.29pm GMT
9.42pm GMT
21:42
The commission hears that Archbishop Little, who knew priests were abusing children but moved them between parishes rather than report them to police or remove them from the church, resigned four years early.
Furness: “Now Archbishop Little ultimately resigned on grounds of ill health, didn’t he?”
Pell: “That was what was said and he certainly had four or five different health problems.”
Furness: “When you say that was said, are you suggesting that there were other reasons for his resignation other than what was said?”
Pell: “I can’t give any book, chapter and verse on this but he resigned four years early and I suspect his situation would have paralleled that of Bishop Mulkearns, who resigned early, perhaps eight years early, and has pointed out that one of the reasons for this early resignation was problems with the treatment, the way he handled paedophilia cases.”
Furness: “Bishop Mulkearns gave evidence that he decided for himself he wasn’t handling those matters well and therefore resigned. Was it the case with Archbishop Little that he decided for himself or that it was suggested to him that his handling of those complaints was deficient?”
Pell: “Both the bishops would have had to offer their resignation. As I said, I can’t give book, chapter and verse but it would not surprise me if Archbishop Little was requested to put in his resignation. But he certainly was sick.”
Cardinal Pell says Archbishop Little allowed paeodophile priests inc. Peter Searson to remain in place and then be transferred #CARoyalComm
#Pell says he was no friend of Arch Little, and didn't agree with how he handled things. #CARoyalComm
Updated
at 9.48pm GMT