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Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live
(35 minutes later)
11.38pm GMT
23:38
Pell: "I don't think I was obliged to do anything more than I did"
Furness: “Your job as auxiliary bishop was for you to apply your mind and experience to matters that came to you in the role as auxiliary bishop, isn’t that right?”
Pell: “That is correct.”
Furness: “What did you do to apply your mind to the list of grievances that was provided to you to consider for yourself as auxiliary bishop what could and should be done in relation to [child abuser] Father Searson?”
Pell: “Um ... I went and sought advice from the executive arms that were regularly used. I thought that was adequate.”
Furness: “What do you say about the adequacy of it now, Cardinal?”
Pell: “No, it was plainly inadequate.”
Furness: “What should you have done?”
Pell: “I don’t think I was obliged to do anything more than I did because it took it to theArchbishop and asked what should be done.”
Furness: “Then when you say that it was plainly inadequate, what was it that was inadequate in relation to your conduct?”
Pell: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say any such thing. What I said was inadequate was the information and briefing given to me.”
He then adds he could have perhaps been a little more pushy.
One lady, listening to the evidence next to me, yells an expletive on hearing Cardinal Pell's comments @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm
Updated
at 11.40pm GMT
11.30pm GMT
23:30
Pell says he was only told about the allegations against Father Searson in a “non-specific way”.
Furness: “I’m sorry, when you say a non-specific way, perhaps you can tell us what it was that you were told about allegations of sexual misconduct against Searson?”
Pell: “No. I can’t remember exactly what was alleged.”
McClellan asks: “Now, having been told, if you say, in a generalised way of allegations of sexual misconduct, did you not think it necessary for you and as the auxiliary bishop to satisfy yourself that those allegations have been properly investigated and have been properly resolved?”
Pell replied that he took the Catholic education office’s word that the complaints has been dealt with appropriately.
McClellan: “That is not quite my question. I asked you whether you accepted the responsibility to ensure that they had been promptly investigated and properly resolved.”
Pell: “I didn’t have an investigative capacity.”
Pell: I took the Catholic education office on their wordMcClellan: you were again deceived, were you?Pell: Yes
11.22pm GMT
23:22
The Guardian’s correspondent in Rome, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has filed some analysis on the request from survivors of child sexual abuse to meet with Pope Francis in Rome;
Will he or won’t he? It is far from clear whether Pope Francis will meet with a group of abuse survivors who have come to Rome from Australia to witness Cardinal Pell’s testimony. The pope has met with survivors of sex abuse twice since he was elected pope in 2013: once in the Vatican and once on his trip last year to the US.
He has been criticised at times for not meeting more frequently with victims: he did not meet with victims on his recent trip to Mexico and he did not respond to a demand by a survivor, Peter Saunders, when Saunders was in Rome recently to attend a meeting of the pope’s special commission to develop policies to prevent and address clerical sexual abuse.
The pope is often seen as a man who disdains being pressured into any decision or being forced into a meeting due to media pressure. But the Catholic church is facing new scrutiny on several fronts: from questions about the adequacy of the church’s policy on when to report suspected abuse, to damaging revelations that have emerged about Cardinal Pell – and the questions he failed to ask – in his commission testimony, to a new report out of Pennsylvania about decades of alleged abuse of hundreds of children and attempts to cover up the abuse.
If Pope Francis feels he needs to more forcefully address the abuse issue, a meeting with the survivors could be a good way to start.
You can follow Stephanie’s updates on Twitter here.
Survivors have formally requested a meeting with @pontifex. They leave for Australia on Friday, haven't heard back from Vatican yet.
Updated
at 11.30pm GMT
11.15pm GMT
23:15
Furness reminds Pell that a delegation came to him in 1989, when he held the position of regional bishop, to complain about Searson’s behaviour towards children.
Before this meeting, Pell was provided with a list of grievances against Searson, Furness says, producing the list for the commission. That list was put together by the Catholic Education Office.
The list included various health and safety issues in relation to Searson’s behaviour. A small group of children were shown a dead body in a coffin, and also witnessed Searson’s cruelty to an animal.
The complaint also said Searson used the children’s toilets and harassed them, as well as demanded children attend reconciliation with him without warning and one-on-one.
However, Pell says he had “no adequate background briefing on the long-term problems [of Searson] at all”.
Justice Peter McClellan interjects. He points out that Pell had been briefed by the education office about grievances against Searson.
Pell replies, “The education office, through the local person, did not give me anything like adequate information.”
Cd. Pell says the Education Office lied to him about extent of problems with Searson.Q: "they deceived you?" A: "Yes" #CARoyalComm
Updated
at 11.19pm GMT
11.06pm GMT11.06pm GMT
23:0623:06
Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged.Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged.
Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat.Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat.
Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?”Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?”
Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to takeyour word for that.” Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to take your word for that.”
Furness: “Well,rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?” Furness: “Well, rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?”
Pell: “Yes.”Pell: “Yes.”
Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?”Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?”
Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.”Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.06pm GMT at 11.17pm GMT
10.54pm GMT10.54pm GMT
22:5422:54
From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten.From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten.
Shorten said he finds it "disturbing" and "challenging" listening to Pell's answers in Royal Comm. @MelissaLDavey @murpharooShorten said he finds it "disturbing" and "challenging" listening to Pell's answers in Royal Comm. @MelissaLDavey @murpharoo
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.57pm GMTat 10.57pm GMT
10.51pm GMT10.51pm GMT
22:5122:51
'We want a meeting with the pope' - survivors'We want a meeting with the pope' - survivors
Child sexual abuse survivors from Ballarat watching Pell’s evidence in Rome have just held a press conference calling for a meeting with head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis.Child sexual abuse survivors from Ballarat watching Pell’s evidence in Rome have just held a press conference calling for a meeting with head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis.
Their statement said, “We are flying back to Australia on Friday and we’d like to think we can get a meeting.”Their statement said, “We are flying back to Australia on Friday and we’d like to think we can get a meeting.”
Survivors read from statement re meeting Pope. They said they were told to fax request which they did pic.twitter.com/Hp4pUhfp5MSurvivors read from statement re meeting Pope. They said they were told to fax request which they did pic.twitter.com/Hp4pUhfp5M
Survivor Philip Nagle said, “We’re getting a little bit tired of hearing what George is saying up there one the stand. We want to be heard. We want someone to show that they care about us.Survivor Philip Nagle said, “We’re getting a little bit tired of hearing what George is saying up there one the stand. We want to be heard. We want someone to show that they care about us.
“You guys are watching Pell up there. He’s giving us nothing. He’s turned his back on us. We want a commitment from the pope that children will be safe.”“You guys are watching Pell up there. He’s giving us nothing. He’s turned his back on us. We want a commitment from the pope that children will be safe.”
Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said; “We’ve seen here a lack of systems that were able to identify and deal with any problems.”Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said; “We’ve seen here a lack of systems that were able to identify and deal with any problems.”
Too many people said “I didn’t think it was my job” to protect children, he told reporters.Too many people said “I didn’t think it was my job” to protect children, he told reporters.
Another survivor, Andrew Collins, said the group sent an email requesting a meeting with the pope last week.Another survivor, Andrew Collins, said the group sent an email requesting a meeting with the pope last week.
“We were told we could only make a formal request via fax”. The survivors sent the fax, “but we still haven’t said anything,” he said.“We were told we could only make a formal request via fax”. The survivors sent the fax, “but we still haven’t said anything,” he said.
Nagle said the survivors were no longer interested in Pell’s offer to meet with them. It was Pope Francis that they wanted to hear from, he said, and he wanted a commitment that no child would be abused within the church again.Nagle said the survivors were no longer interested in Pell’s offer to meet with them. It was Pope Francis that they wanted to hear from, he said, and he wanted a commitment that no child would be abused within the church again.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.00pm GMTat 11.00pm GMT
10.33pm GMT10.33pm GMT
22:3322:33
Morning adjournmentMorning adjournment
The evidence will resume in about 15 minutes.The evidence will resume in about 15 minutes.
This morning, Furness focussed on the widespread abuse at the hands of Peter Searson. Complaints made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never been acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little, the commission heard. Searson died in 2009 without having faced charges.This morning, Furness focussed on the widespread abuse at the hands of Peter Searson. Complaints made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never been acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little, the commission heard. Searson died in 2009 without having faced charges.
There is nothing to suggest Pell knew Searson was abusing children at the time, however Pell did say he viewed Searson as “one of the most unpleasant priests I met”.There is nothing to suggest Pell knew Searson was abusing children at the time, however Pell did say he viewed Searson as “one of the most unpleasant priests I met”.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.34pm GMTat 10.34pm GMT
10.30pm GMT10.30pm GMT
22:3022:30
Child abuse was Archbishop Little's 'blind-spot'Child abuse was Archbishop Little's 'blind-spot'
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is painting a picture of just how many people around Pell knew that Searson was abusing children, sexually, physically and verbally.Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is painting a picture of just how many people around Pell knew that Searson was abusing children, sexually, physically and verbally.
Pell was unaware of this abusing. Archbishop Frank Little, however, was told repeatedly abuse the complaints against Searson, Furness says. One teacher refused to send her class to Searson alone.Pell was unaware of this abusing. Archbishop Frank Little, however, was told repeatedly abuse the complaints against Searson, Furness says. One teacher refused to send her class to Searson alone.
Furness: “Now it’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal, that at this stage. that Father Searson should have been stood down at the very least?”Furness: “Now it’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal, that at this stage. that Father Searson should have been stood down at the very least?”
Pell: “That is correct.”Pell: “That is correct.”
Furness: “Do you think this is an example of what Bishop Connors referred to as Archbishop’s Little’s blind-spot?”Furness: “Do you think this is an example of what Bishop Connors referred to as Archbishop’s Little’s blind-spot?”
Pell: “Archbishop Little for some reason seemed incapable or unable to deal with Father Searson, or even to provide any adequate level of information about the situation. Yes, you could say one way of describing it is a blind-spot.”Pell: “Archbishop Little for some reason seemed incapable or unable to deal with Father Searson, or even to provide any adequate level of information about the situation. Yes, you could say one way of describing it is a blind-spot.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.39pm GMTat 10.39pm GMT
10.22pm GMT10.22pm GMT
22:2222:22
Furness tells the commission; “... Father Searson had a tape recorder going while having confession... Father Searson asked children to kneel between his legs when they go to confession.”Furness tells the commission; “... Father Searson had a tape recorder going while having confession... Father Searson asked children to kneel between his legs when they go to confession.”
These concerns were raised to archbishop Little, Furness said. She said Searson also used a tape recorder to record these confessions.These concerns were raised to archbishop Little, Furness said. She said Searson also used a tape recorder to record these confessions.
Furness; “Those complaints, taken together with the previous complaints I referred to, increased the suspicion of Father Searson in relation to his conduct with girls. Doesn’t it? And particularly having children kneel between his legs when giving confession is quite abhorrent, isn’t it?”Furness; “Those complaints, taken together with the previous complaints I referred to, increased the suspicion of Father Searson in relation to his conduct with girls. Doesn’t it? And particularly having children kneel between his legs when giving confession is quite abhorrent, isn’t it?”
Pell: “Yes, it is... it would have been would have to have been established by an inquiry and it is abhorrent and something to be investigated.”Pell: “Yes, it is... it would have been would have to have been established by an inquiry and it is abhorrent and something to be investigated.”
Furness: “When you say it needed to be established from an inquiry, it’s clear that Father Searson accepted that he had been playing the tape recorder. So in fact you don’t need an investigation because you have the allegation and the allegation being admitted. Don’t you?”Furness: “When you say it needed to be established from an inquiry, it’s clear that Father Searson accepted that he had been playing the tape recorder. So in fact you don’t need an investigation because you have the allegation and the allegation being admitted. Don’t you?”
Pell: “Yes, I said at least an investigation.That would have been referred to some person in authority for effect of action.”Pell: “Yes, I said at least an investigation.That would have been referred to some person in authority for effect of action.”
Furness: “It was referred to someone in authority wasn’t it?Because it was referred from the vicar general to the Archbishop. It’s hard to imagine more authority than that.”Furness: “It was referred to someone in authority wasn’t it?Because it was referred from the vicar general to the Archbishop. It’s hard to imagine more authority than that.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.37pm GMTat 10.37pm GMT
10.13pm GMT10.13pm GMT
22:1322:13
Furness says a complaint about Searson was made to an educational consultant at the Catholic Education Office, Allan Dooley.Furness says a complaint about Searson was made to an educational consultant at the Catholic Education Office, Allan Dooley.
Furness says a mother phoned Dooley “because her daughter was concerned that he [Searson] made reference to her daughter’s weight and tickled her on the stomach and said ‘don’t ever look at yourself in the shower’.”Furness says a mother phoned Dooley “because her daughter was concerned that he [Searson] made reference to her daughter’s weight and tickled her on the stomach and said ‘don’t ever look at yourself in the shower’.”
Pell: “That is terrible.”Pell: “That is terrible.”
I can't imagine how the survivors sit through this. Case after case, this priest, that brother, this offence - it's overwhelming at timesI can't imagine how the survivors sit through this. Case after case, this priest, that brother, this offence - it's overwhelming at times
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.14pm GMTat 10.14pm GMT
10.09pm GMT10.09pm GMT
22:0922:09
Pell says child abuser Peter Searson was 'one of the most unpleasant priests I met'Pell says child abuser Peter Searson was 'one of the most unpleasant priests I met'
Furness asks Pell when he first became aware of parish priest Peter Searson who had two years worth of complaints against him including that he was sexually abusing children, had tortured animals and had brought a gun to school.Furness asks Pell when he first became aware of parish priest Peter Searson who had two years worth of complaints against him including that he was sexually abusing children, had tortured animals and had brought a gun to school.
Furness: “Now, when did Father Searson first come to your attention after you were made auxiliary bishop?”Furness: “Now, when did Father Searson first come to your attention after you were made auxiliary bishop?”
Pell: “I can’t recall exactly. I presume it would be the first time I visited the [Sunbury] parish, probably in connection with a confirmation.”Pell: “I can’t recall exactly. I presume it would be the first time I visited the [Sunbury] parish, probably in connection with a confirmation.”
Furness: “Do you recall now whether you had formed an early view of him?”Furness: “Do you recall now whether you had formed an early view of him?”
Pell: “Um, yes. He was a disconcerting man. In fact, at his worst moments he could be described as one of the most unpleasant priests that I’ve met, although he didn’t show that side of his personality to me very often. But I quickly learned that he was a difficult customer.”Pell: “Um, yes. He was a disconcerting man. In fact, at his worst moments he could be described as one of the most unpleasant priests that I’ve met, although he didn’t show that side of his personality to me very often. But I quickly learned that he was a difficult customer.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.28pm GMTat 10.28pm GMT
10.03pm GMT10.03pm GMT
22:0322:03
Furness is presenting Pell with historical documents detailing the abuses of parish priest Peter Searson. As previously mentioned, Searson had numerous complaints made against him to senior church figures, was never reported to police, and died without ever being charged.Furness is presenting Pell with historical documents detailing the abuses of parish priest Peter Searson. As previously mentioned, Searson had numerous complaints made against him to senior church figures, was never reported to police, and died without ever being charged.
Furness shows Pell a complaint “expressing the view that Searson was psychologically unsuitable to be a pastor or the pastor of that [Sunbury] parish”.Furness shows Pell a complaint “expressing the view that Searson was psychologically unsuitable to be a pastor or the pastor of that [Sunbury] parish”.
Documents show that senior church staff decided to constantly review the situation rather than report Searson, the commission hears.Documents show that senior church staff decided to constantly review the situation rather than report Searson, the commission hears.
“I think it was completely inadequate,” Pell says.“I think it was completely inadequate,” Pell says.
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at 10.28pm GMTat 10.28pm GMT
9.57pm GMT9.57pm GMT
21:5721:57
Pell says when he was auxiliary bishop, he appointed Denis Hart as his vicar general and that “it was a very successful appointment”.Pell says when he was auxiliary bishop, he appointed Denis Hart as his vicar general and that “it was a very successful appointment”.
“I think his work as vicar general, especially in the matter of sexual abuse, constituted a very, very significant advance and improvement. I knew him a bit, I spoke to him off and on, I encouraged him. Father Hart was a formidably good administrator.”“I think his work as vicar general, especially in the matter of sexual abuse, constituted a very, very significant advance and improvement. I knew him a bit, I spoke to him off and on, I encouraged him. Father Hart was a formidably good administrator.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.28pm GMTat 10.28pm GMT
9.50pm GMT9.50pm GMT
21:5021:50
Furness is now questioning Pell about a parish priest, Peter Searson. The royal commission heard last year that complaints about Searson, made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little.Furness is now questioning Pell about a parish priest, Peter Searson. The royal commission heard last year that complaints about Searson, made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little.
Complaints came in from parents daily and ranged from concerns about Searson sexually abusing children to his bizarre way of running confession by having children sit on his lap. He also displayed strange behaviours such as carrying a gun to school and cruelty towards animals.Complaints came in from parents daily and ranged from concerns about Searson sexually abusing children to his bizarre way of running confession by having children sit on his lap. He also displayed strange behaviours such as carrying a gun to school and cruelty towards animals.
Pell says that Little “had a lot of information which he never made available to me” about Searson.Pell says that Little “had a lot of information which he never made available to me” about Searson.
“I discovered that somebody had prepared a list of infractions, a page and a half. I was never informed that this had been prepared and I was never informed about the variety and the seriousness of the problems in Sunbury.”“I discovered that somebody had prepared a list of infractions, a page and a half. I was never informed that this had been prepared and I was never informed about the variety and the seriousness of the problems in Sunbury.”
Searson died in 2009 without ever facing charges. The commission has previously heard he abused children in parishes and schools across three districts over more than a decade.Searson died in 2009 without ever facing charges. The commission has previously heard he abused children in parishes and schools across three districts over more than a decade.
George Pell: "I didn't feel any need to request access to files" (of priests in his region) when auxiliary priest of MelbourneGeorge Pell: "I didn't feel any need to request access to files" (of priests in his region) when auxiliary priest of Melbourne
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.29pm GMTat 10.29pm GMT
9.42pm GMT9.42pm GMT
21:4221:42
The commission hears that Archbishop Little, who knew priests were abusing children but moved them between parishes rather than report them to police or remove them from the church, resigned four years early.The commission hears that Archbishop Little, who knew priests were abusing children but moved them between parishes rather than report them to police or remove them from the church, resigned four years early.
Furness: “Now Archbishop Little ultimately resigned on grounds of ill health, didn’t he?”Furness: “Now Archbishop Little ultimately resigned on grounds of ill health, didn’t he?”
Pell: “That was what was said and he certainly had four or five different health problems.”Pell: “That was what was said and he certainly had four or five different health problems.”
Furness: “When you say that was said, are you suggesting that there were other reasons for his resignation other than what was said?”Furness: “When you say that was said, are you suggesting that there were other reasons for his resignation other than what was said?”
Pell: “I can’t give any book, chapter and verse on this but he resigned four years early and I suspect his situation would have paralleled that of Bishop Mulkearns, who resigned early, perhaps eight years early, and has pointed out that one of the reasons for this early resignation was problems with the treatment, the way he handled paedophilia cases.”Pell: “I can’t give any book, chapter and verse on this but he resigned four years early and I suspect his situation would have paralleled that of Bishop Mulkearns, who resigned early, perhaps eight years early, and has pointed out that one of the reasons for this early resignation was problems with the treatment, the way he handled paedophilia cases.”
Furness: “Bishop Mulkearns gave evidence that he decided for himself he wasn’t handling those matters well and therefore resigned. Was it the case with Archbishop Little that he decided for himself or that it was suggested to him that his handling of those complaints was deficient?”Furness: “Bishop Mulkearns gave evidence that he decided for himself he wasn’t handling those matters well and therefore resigned. Was it the case with Archbishop Little that he decided for himself or that it was suggested to him that his handling of those complaints was deficient?”
Pell: “Both the bishops would have had to offer their resignation. As I said, I can’t give book, chapter and verse but it would not surprise me if Archbishop Little was requested to put in his resignation. But he certainly was sick.”Pell: “Both the bishops would have had to offer their resignation. As I said, I can’t give book, chapter and verse but it would not surprise me if Archbishop Little was requested to put in his resignation. But he certainly was sick.”
Cardinal Pell says Archbishop Little allowed paeodophile priests inc. Peter Searson to remain in place and then be transferred #CARoyalCommCardinal Pell says Archbishop Little allowed paeodophile priests inc. Peter Searson to remain in place and then be transferred #CARoyalComm
#Pell says he was no friend of Arch Little, and didn't agree with how he handled things. #CARoyalComm#Pell says he was no friend of Arch Little, and didn't agree with how he handled things. #CARoyalComm
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at 9.48pm GMTat 9.48pm GMT