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| Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live | Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 12.52am GMT | |
| 00:52 | |
| The evidence this morning has focussed largely on what Cardinal George Pell knew of the offending of Father Peter Searson. | |
| Countless complaints had been made to senior figures within the church about Searson, the commission heard, and Pell too had been presented with a list of grievances about Searson’s behaviour, which included bringing a gun to school and torturing animals in front of children. | |
| I wrote about Searson in November. Here is an excerpt from that piece; | |
| A victim of child sexual abuse at the hands of a Melbourne priest, Peter Searson, has told a royal commission that he now sits at home in the dark with the door locked because it is the only place he feels safe. | |
| The victim, identified only as BVD, said the abuse had begun when he was about nine years old in 1978, while he was serving as an altar boy at the Our Lady of Carmel parish in Sunbury. Searson was the parish priest and BVD was ordered to mow his lawn and wash his car. | |
| “He was a very scary man and and very intimidating, with a gaze that would just pierce you like he was looking right through you,” BVD told the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse in Melbourne on Tuesday. | |
| “I was very submissive as a child and I was very scared of Searson.” | |
| Searson would order BVD to come inside with him every Saturday after he had finished washing his car, he said, and the priest’s behaviour progressed from drying BVD’s genitals to raping him. | |
| “That happened nearly every Saturday for six months,” BVD said, breaking down into tears. “Searson threatened me, telling me I would go to hell if I told anyone. I was terrified. The only person I was more scared of than Searson was my mother. There was no way I could tell her what was happening.” | |
| Melissa Davey with you here. We’re about ten minutes away from the commission recommencing after a short break. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook. | |
| 12.38am GMT | |
| 00:38 | |
| Paul Karp | |
| I’ve been reading Italian papers to find out how Pell’s testimony has been reported. Corriere della Sera leads with Pell’s admission the Catholic church “has committed many great errors ... [it] caused serious harms in many places and disappointed the faithful”. | |
| . @Corriereit leads w #Pell admission Catholic church "caused serious harms in many places & disappointed faithful" pic.twitter.com/Vc8YTNaHFW | |
| Public broadcaster Rai says Pell met the Pope in the morning and before the evening of his second day of hearings, and Pell has declared he has the Pope’s “full support”. | |
| Public broadcaster Rai says #Pell met Pope day of 2nd hearings, and has declared he has the Pope's "full support" pic.twitter.com/On3ydCS8HT | |
| Corriere della Sera says the most embarrassing moment was when Pell admitted he knew Leo Fitzgerald used to swim nude with students and kiss them, but the general consensus was that he was eccentric but fairly harmless. | |
| . @Corriereit says most embarrassing when #Pell admitted he knew Leo Fitzgerald wld swim nude w students &kiss them pic.twitter.com/MHDgZansyc | |
| Corriere della Sera tweet picks up on Pell’s statement that the Ridsdale case “was not of great interest to me”. | |
| Corriere della Sera leads with reaction to Pell saying Ridsdale case “was not of great interest to me”, reports boos/hisses and exclamations of derision. And Il Post mentions the Guardian’s coverage as an example of an international newspaper describing the hearing as historic, and that Guardian wrote “this is the first time a case that highlights the responsibility of the church for covering up paedophile. | |
| Il Post notes @GuardianAus report this is closest issue of church responsibility for pedophilia has been to Vatican pic.twitter.com/kpw59HSoFA | |
| 12.24am GMT | |
| 00:24 | |
| A short adjournment | |
| As the commission says it will sit for an extra hour today. | |
| The evidence will resume in 20 minutes or so. | |
| Updated | |
| at 12.49am GMT | |
| 12.23am GMT | |
| 00:23 | |
| Pell tells the commission that he knew Father Searson was a serious problem. He has been presented with a list of concerns about Searson’s behaviour by the Catholic Education Office, which included a report that he had abused animals in front of children. | |
| “Yes, I knew he was a serious problem,” Pell says. | |
| Furness: “You knew he was such a serious problem that he shouldn’t be a priest, didn’t you?” | |
| Pell: “No, I didn’t come to that conclusion. The position I accepted was the official position given to me that we did not have sufficient evidence to remove him.” | |
| Q: "you knew (Searson) was such a serious problem that he shouldn't be a priest, didn't you?Cd. Pell: "No..." | |
| Updated | |
| at 12.49am GMT | |
| 12.20am GMT | |
| 00:20 | |
| McClellan tells Pell abuse survivors don't always go to police, but that doesn't mean their allegations of abuse are not true | |
| Pell tells the commission that if the police are unable to proceed because of lack of a lack of evidence, that is a significant factor “colouring what the church authorities might decide to do.” | |
| Justice Peter McClellan will have none of it. | |
| McClellan: “Cardinal, as you know, the royal commission has spoken now to almost 5,000 survivors. You understand that?” | |
| Pell: “I do.” | |
| McClellan: “I assume you are aware, that a great many people who have been affected by the conduct of others, sexual or physical assaults, do not wish to involve themselves in the criminal justice process. You understand that?” | |
| Pell: “I do.” | |
| McClellan: “But you understand that, for many of those people, the allegations that they would make are absolutely true.” | |
| Pell: “That’s correct.” | |
| McClellan: “Well, is it not the case that when the church has allegations before it, that the church had a responsibility itself to deal with those allegations irrespective of whether the police are able to take action because they have people who are prepared to give evidence in a court?” | |
| Pell: “Because they’re not prepared to, yes.” | |
| Commissioner: doesn't the church have responsibility to deal with allegations, regardless of whether police will proceed? @australian | |
| Updated | |
| at 12.48am GMT | |
| 12.15am GMT | 12.15am GMT |
| 00:15 | 00:15 |
| Elle Hunt | Elle Hunt |
| ABC reporter Danny Tran is in Ballarat for the royal commission. He says Gail Furness’ description of Pell’s evidence and reasons for being deceived as “completely implausible” was met with applause. | ABC reporter Danny Tran is in Ballarat for the royal commission. He says Gail Furness’ description of Pell’s evidence and reasons for being deceived as “completely implausible” was met with applause. |
| Applause from Ballarat as Gail Furness says Cardinal Pell's evidence &reasons for being deceived are "completely implausible" @abcnewsMelb | Applause from Ballarat as Gail Furness says Cardinal Pell's evidence &reasons for being deceived are "completely implausible" @abcnewsMelb |
| Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb | Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb |
| Tran reported heated scenes earlier. | Tran reported heated scenes earlier. |
| Groans & catcalls in Ballarat town hall as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm the Education Office deceived him about Searson @abcnewsMelb | Groans & catcalls in Ballarat town hall as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm the Education Office deceived him about Searson @abcnewsMelb |
| Laughter in Ballarat as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm he was "the new boy on the block" who was "known to be outspoken" @abcnewsMelb | Laughter in Ballarat as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm he was "the new boy on the block" who was "known to be outspoken" @abcnewsMelb |
| 12.10am GMT | 12.10am GMT |
| 00:10 | 00:10 |
| Some more analysis from Rome from Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner. | Some more analysis from Rome from Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner. |
| We have not seen a fiery, aggressive Pell here in the Verdi Room, even though he is often described that way. But it is clear that the cardinal from Australia is becoming more assertive in his testimony. | We have not seen a fiery, aggressive Pell here in the Verdi Room, even though he is often described that way. But it is clear that the cardinal from Australia is becoming more assertive in his testimony. |
| On the first day, he acknowledged hearing references to abuse that he never followed up. Then, on Tuesday, he insisted he never heard about suspicions that Gerald Ridsdale was a serial pedophile. | On the first day, he acknowledged hearing references to abuse that he never followed up. Then, on Tuesday, he insisted he never heard about suspicions that Gerald Ridsdale was a serial pedophile. |
| Now he has gone a step further: saying he was purposely not told about abuse because his fellow officials knew that he would shake-up the status quo. Gail Furness, it is fair to say, believes none of it. | Now he has gone a step further: saying he was purposely not told about abuse because his fellow officials knew that he would shake-up the status quo. Gail Furness, it is fair to say, believes none of it. |
| 12.08am GMT | 12.08am GMT |
| 00:08 | 00:08 |
| Elle Hunt | Elle Hunt |
| On Sunday, Miranda Devine published a column in the Daily Telegraph, criticising the “unrestrained vitriol spewed” at Pell, “the first [churchman] to respond with a plan to help victims”.Clare Linane of Ballarat published an open letter in response on her personal Facebook page. | On Sunday, Miranda Devine published a column in the Daily Telegraph, criticising the “unrestrained vitriol spewed” at Pell, “the first [churchman] to respond with a plan to help victims”.Clare Linane of Ballarat published an open letter in response on her personal Facebook page. |
| She wrote that her husband, brother and cousin were sexually abused by Brother Edward Dowlan; her husband is currently in Rome. | She wrote that her husband, brother and cousin were sexually abused by Brother Edward Dowlan; her husband is currently in Rome. |
| Her post, in which she responds to Devine’s column point by point, is worth reading in full, but here’s an excerpt: | Her post, in which she responds to Devine’s column point by point, is worth reading in full, but here’s an excerpt: |
| [On] your concern about George Pell given his frail health. Here I will lift my hands and declare my total lack of objectivity. Miranda, after being abused at 11, the way my husband was treated by the representatives of the church was heart-breaking, and was an abuse all over again. He went to Towards Healing for help in 2006; they funded approximately 10 counselling sessions then refused to fund anymore. They wanted him to ‘come to the table’ to settle this matter. In other words, they wanted him to accept a payout, sign a confidentiality agreement, and go away. | |
| This left him with no choice but to pursue legal avenues; a cruel, frustrating process that nearly killed him. At the absolute lowest point in his life, where he had lost his ability to work, lost most of his assets, lost half of his family, lost his business, lost his sense of self-esteem, and battled suicidal thoughts daily, the representatives of the church – the church of which George Pell is effectively Australian CEO – demonstrated no compassion whatsoever. We were tiny ants taking on an elephant; we would pay $5,000 to have a QC represent us, only to have the church postpone on a technicality on the day. Not once, but three times they did this to us. I often said to my husband, “I’m sure they think if they keep drawing this out you’ll eventually crack and just top yourself”. He didn’t. | |
| I know that he is just one of hundreds who were treated with total disregard for their well-being by church representatives; not just 40 years ago, but recently, whilst George Pell was in charge, and therefore ultimately accountable. So Miranda, no; I am not worried about George’s ‘frail health’ whilst he testifies. I’m sure he will be fine. I’m far more worried about my husband and friends. | |
| Linane concludes by saying that the royal commission is not about Pell, or the survivors as individuals: it is about a commitment to action by the church to implement, among other things, a national redress scheme and program of education and peer support. | |
| Her post has received considerable coverage but Devine has not publicly responded, though she did refer to the responses to her column, some of which were “bile-flecked”, in quoting a since-deleted tweet. | Her post has received considerable coverage but Devine has not publicly responded, though she did refer to the responses to her column, some of which were “bile-flecked”, in quoting a since-deleted tweet. |
| This is what it's come to. Get Pell. And this is one of the least bile-flecked responses to my column. https://t.co/aKHyZYA8LD | This is what it's come to. Get Pell. And this is one of the least bile-flecked responses to my column. https://t.co/aKHyZYA8LD |
| She also tweeted a link to “some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept” care of the Catholic Weekly. | She also tweeted a link to “some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept” care of the Catholic Weekly. |
| Some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept - behind the Royal Commission headlines @catholic_weekly https://t.co/pGFNzEkqoE | Some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept - behind the Royal Commission headlines @catholic_weekly https://t.co/pGFNzEkqoE |
| Updated | |
| at 12.47am GMT | |
| 12.05am GMT | 12.05am GMT |
| 00:05 | 00:05 |
| Furness: “There is reference ... to Father Searson stabbing to death a bird in front of the children.” | |
| Pell: “Yes.” | Pell: “Yes.” |
| Furness: “Did that come to your attention?” | Furness: “Did that come to your attention?” |
| Pell: “At some stage I think, I don’t know whether the bird was already dead but at some stage I certainly was informed of this bizarre happening.” | Pell: “At some stage I think, I don’t know whether the bird was already dead but at some stage I certainly was informed of this bizarre happening.” |
| Furness: “Does it matter whether the bird was dead or it was stabbed when it was dead?” | Furness: “Does it matter whether the bird was dead or it was stabbed when it was dead?” |
| Pell: “Not really. Not really.” | Pell: “Not really. Not really.” |
| Father Peter Searson stabbed a bird to death with a screwdriver in front of children, inquiry hears #CARoyalComm | Father Peter Searson stabbed a bird to death with a screwdriver in front of children, inquiry hears #CARoyalComm |
| Updated | |
| at 12.49am GMT | |
| 12.02am GMT | 12.02am GMT |
| 00:02 | 00:02 |
| Pell says the senor figures around him deceived him about the extent of abuse within the Catholic church | Pell says the senor figures around him deceived him about the extent of abuse within the Catholic church |
| Furness doesn’t accept Pell’s evidence that he was unaware of the abuse inflicted on children by Ridsdale and Searson. She also does not accept Pell’s evidence that that senior figures who worked alongside him who knew of the abuse deliberately didn’t tell him about it. | Furness doesn’t accept Pell’s evidence that he was unaware of the abuse inflicted on children by Ridsdale and Searson. She also does not accept Pell’s evidence that that senior figures who worked alongside him who knew of the abuse deliberately didn’t tell him about it. |
| Furness says; “So we now have the CEO deceiving you and the archbishop deceiving you and concealing information from you as well as Bishop Mulkearns and one or more of the consultors in the Ballarat diocese?” | Furness says; “So we now have the CEO deceiving you and the archbishop deceiving you and concealing information from you as well as Bishop Mulkearns and one or more of the consultors in the Ballarat diocese?” |
| Pell: “That is correct.” | Pell: “That is correct.” |
| Furness: “It is an extraordinary position, Cardinal.” | Furness: “It is an extraordinary position, Cardinal.” |
| Pell: “Um, counsel, this was an extraordinary world. A world of crimes and cover ups. And people did not want the status quo to be disturbed.” | Pell: “Um, counsel, this was an extraordinary world. A world of crimes and cover ups. And people did not want the status quo to be disturbed.” |
| Furness: “You put yourself in this world as being the person who would disturb the status quo, do you?” | Furness: “You put yourself in this world as being the person who would disturb the status quo, do you?” |
| Pell: “I not only disturbed the status quo but when I became archbishop, I turned the situation right around so that the Melbourne Response procedures were light years ahead of all this obfuscation and prevarication and deception.” | Pell: “I not only disturbed the status quo but when I became archbishop, I turned the situation right around so that the Melbourne Response procedures were light years ahead of all this obfuscation and prevarication and deception.” |
| [Note - The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.] | [Note - The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.] |
| Furness: “I suggest that, indeed, you did have knowledge in relation to Father Ridsdale’s misconduct either during in or shortly after the consultor’s meeting in 1982. What do you say to that?” | Furness: “I suggest that, indeed, you did have knowledge in relation to Father Ridsdale’s misconduct either during in or shortly after the consultor’s meeting in 1982. What do you say to that?” |
| Pell: “I repeat that that is inaccurate.” | Pell: “I repeat that that is inaccurate.” |
| Furness: “I suggest to you that the Catholic Education Office properly and adequately briefed you in relation to Father Searson.” | Furness: “I suggest to you that the Catholic Education Office properly and adequately briefed you in relation to Father Searson.” |
| Pell: “No,they certainly did not properly and adequately brief me. There is no evidence to that effect whatsoever.” | Pell: “No,they certainly did not properly and adequately brief me. There is no evidence to that effect whatsoever.” |
| Earlier in the proceedings, Furness showed the commission a long list of concerns about Searson that has been presented to Pell at the time. However, Pell said the list, which included allegations of animal abuse and using the children’s toilet, was not enough to reveal Searson’s extensive abusing history. | Earlier in the proceedings, Furness showed the commission a long list of concerns about Searson that has been presented to Pell at the time. However, Pell said the list, which included allegations of animal abuse and using the children’s toilet, was not enough to reveal Searson’s extensive abusing history. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.05am GMT | at 12.05am GMT |
| 11.53pm GMT | 11.53pm GMT |
| 23:53 | 23:53 |
| For the second time in two days, Furness tells Pell his evidence is 'implausible' and adds it is 'designed to deflect blame' | For the second time in two days, Furness tells Pell his evidence is 'implausible' and adds it is 'designed to deflect blame' |
| Furness says to Pell: “Cardinal, I have to suggest to you that your evidence in relation to not being briefed properly or adequately by the Catholic Education Office [about Searson abusing children], and the reasons for that, are completely implausible.” | Furness says to Pell: “Cardinal, I have to suggest to you that your evidence in relation to not being briefed properly or adequately by the Catholic Education Office [about Searson abusing children], and the reasons for that, are completely implausible.” |
| Pell replies; “Um, counsel, I can only tell you the truth, the whole story of Searson is quite implausible and the cover-up is equally implausible. I can only tell you the way it was as far as I’m concerned.” | Pell replies; “Um, counsel, I can only tell you the truth, the whole story of Searson is quite implausible and the cover-up is equally implausible. I can only tell you the way it was as far as I’m concerned.” |
| Furness: “I suggest,Cardinal, that the evidence you have given has been designed to deflect blame from you on doing nothing in relation to Father Searson that had any real effect after the delegation came to you.” | Furness: “I suggest,Cardinal, that the evidence you have given has been designed to deflect blame from you on doing nothing in relation to Father Searson that had any real effect after the delegation came to you.” |
| Pell: “Um, that is not accurate because I took up the matter with the archbishop himself.” | Pell: “Um, that is not accurate because I took up the matter with the archbishop himself.” |
| Yesterday, Furness put it to Pell that it was implausible he did not know that notorious paedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was abusing children, given it was common knowledge and that Pell held a senior position within the Ballarat diocese, where Ridsdale was abusing. Pell denied the allegation. | Yesterday, Furness put it to Pell that it was implausible he did not know that notorious paedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was abusing children, given it was common knowledge and that Pell held a senior position within the Ballarat diocese, where Ridsdale was abusing. Pell denied the allegation. |
| Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb | Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.08am GMT | at 12.08am GMT |
| 11.46pm GMT | 11.46pm GMT |
| 23:46 | 23:46 |
| An extraordinary exchange between McClellan and Pell | An extraordinary exchange between McClellan and Pell |
| Pell tells the commission that the reason everyone around him was informed of Searson’s comprehensive and long term abusing of children, but he wasn’t, was because the Catholic Education Office knew he would ask “inconvenient questions” if he was informed. | Pell tells the commission that the reason everyone around him was informed of Searson’s comprehensive and long term abusing of children, but he wasn’t, was because the Catholic Education Office knew he would ask “inconvenient questions” if he was informed. |
| Furness asked Pell; “Why would it be they would single out you not to tell information to when they’d readily told it to the archbishop and the vicar general who had the power?” | Furness asked Pell; “Why would it be they would single out you not to tell information to when they’d readily told it to the archbishop and the vicar general who had the power?” |
| Pell replies: “Because they realised very clearly I was not cut from the same cloth.” | Pell replies: “Because they realised very clearly I was not cut from the same cloth.” |
| Furness: “So they picked you out as someone who would have taken decisive action so, therefore, they would keep from you information to enable you to take that action, is that right?” | Furness: “So they picked you out as someone who would have taken decisive action so, therefore, they would keep from you information to enable you to take that action, is that right?” |
| Pell: “That might be overstating their position but they might not have been certain I would take decisive action but they would have been fearful that I would and pretty certain that I would have asked all sorts of inconvenient questions if I’d been better briefed.” | Pell: “That might be overstating their position but they might not have been certain I would take decisive action but they would have been fearful that I would and pretty certain that I would have asked all sorts of inconvenient questions if I’d been better briefed.” |
| McClellan intervenes here. He says Pell’s evidence doesn’t make sense. If the Catholic Education Office didn’t want questions to be asked about the abuse, why would they have told other senior figures about Searson’s behaviour, McClellan asks. | McClellan intervenes here. He says Pell’s evidence doesn’t make sense. If the Catholic Education Office didn’t want questions to be asked about the abuse, why would they have told other senior figures about Searson’s behaviour, McClellan asks. |
| McClellan says to Pell; “it makes no sense at all for the education office to want to cover up to you, does it?” | McClellan says to Pell; “it makes no sense at all for the education office to want to cover up to you, does it?” |
| Pell: “I don’t think that follows in anyway whatsoever.” | Pell: “I don’t think that follows in anyway whatsoever.” |
| It was quite an extraordinary exchange. | It was quite an extraordinary exchange. |
| Laughter heard - I believe - possibly coughing - as Pell persists that others would have feared he would have asked inconvenient questions | Laughter heard - I believe - possibly coughing - as Pell persists that others would have feared he would have asked inconvenient questions |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.03am GMT | at 12.03am GMT |
| 11.38pm GMT | 11.38pm GMT |
| 23:38 | 23:38 |
| Pell: 'I don't think I was obliged to do anything more than I did' | Pell: 'I don't think I was obliged to do anything more than I did' |
| Furness: “Your job as auxiliary bishop was for you to apply your mind and experience to matters that came to you in the role as auxiliary bishop, isn’t that right?” | Furness: “Your job as auxiliary bishop was for you to apply your mind and experience to matters that came to you in the role as auxiliary bishop, isn’t that right?” |
| Pell: “That is correct.” | Pell: “That is correct.” |
| Furness: “What did you do to apply your mind to the list of grievances that was provided to you to consider for yourself as auxiliary bishop what could and should be done in relation to [child abuser] Father Searson?” | Furness: “What did you do to apply your mind to the list of grievances that was provided to you to consider for yourself as auxiliary bishop what could and should be done in relation to [child abuser] Father Searson?” |
| Pell: “Um ... I went and sought advice from the executive arms that were regularly used. I thought that was adequate.” | Pell: “Um ... I went and sought advice from the executive arms that were regularly used. I thought that was adequate.” |
| Furness: “What do you say about the adequacy of it now, Cardinal?” | Furness: “What do you say about the adequacy of it now, Cardinal?” |
| Pell: “No, it was plainly inadequate.” | Pell: “No, it was plainly inadequate.” |
| Furness: “What should you have done?” | Furness: “What should you have done?” |
| Pell: “I don’t think I was obliged to do anything more than I did because it took it to the archbishop and asked what should be done.” | Pell: “I don’t think I was obliged to do anything more than I did because it took it to the archbishop and asked what should be done.” |
| Furness: “Then when you say that it was plainly inadequate, what was it that was inadequate in relation to your conduct?” | Furness: “Then when you say that it was plainly inadequate, what was it that was inadequate in relation to your conduct?” |
| Pell: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say any such thing. What I said was inadequate was the information and briefing given to me.” | Pell: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say any such thing. What I said was inadequate was the information and briefing given to me.” |
| He then adds he could have perhaps been a little more pushy. | He then adds he could have perhaps been a little more pushy. |
| One lady, listening to the evidence next to me, yells an expletive on hearing Cardinal Pell's comments @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm | One lady, listening to the evidence next to me, yells an expletive on hearing Cardinal Pell's comments @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.00am GMT | at 12.00am GMT |
| 11.30pm GMT | 11.30pm GMT |
| 23:30 | 23:30 |
| Pell says he was only told about the allegations against Father Searson in a “non-specific way”. | Pell says he was only told about the allegations against Father Searson in a “non-specific way”. |
| Furness: “I’m sorry, when you say a non-specific way, perhaps you can tell us what it was that you were told about allegations of sexual misconduct against Searson?” | Furness: “I’m sorry, when you say a non-specific way, perhaps you can tell us what it was that you were told about allegations of sexual misconduct against Searson?” |
| Pell: “No. I can’t remember exactly what was alleged.” | Pell: “No. I can’t remember exactly what was alleged.” |
| McClellan asks: “Now, having been told, if you say, in a generalised way of allegations of sexual misconduct, did you not think it necessary for you and as the auxiliary bishop to satisfy yourself that those allegations have been properly investigated and have been properly resolved?” | McClellan asks: “Now, having been told, if you say, in a generalised way of allegations of sexual misconduct, did you not think it necessary for you and as the auxiliary bishop to satisfy yourself that those allegations have been properly investigated and have been properly resolved?” |
| Pell replied that he took the Catholic Education Office’s word that the complaints had been dealt with appropriately. | Pell replied that he took the Catholic Education Office’s word that the complaints had been dealt with appropriately. |
| McClellan: “That is not quite my question. I asked you whether you accepted the responsibility to ensure that they had been promptly investigated and properly resolved.” | McClellan: “That is not quite my question. I asked you whether you accepted the responsibility to ensure that they had been promptly investigated and properly resolved.” |
| Pell: “I didn’t have an investigative capacity.” | Pell: “I didn’t have an investigative capacity.” |
| Pell: I took the Catholic education office on their wordMcClellan: you were again deceived, were you?Pell: Yes | Pell: I took the Catholic education office on their wordMcClellan: you were again deceived, were you?Pell: Yes |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.01am GMT | at 12.01am GMT |
| 11.22pm GMT | 11.22pm GMT |
| 23:22 | 23:22 |
| The Guardian’s correspondent in Rome, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has filed some analysis on the request from survivors of child sexual abuse to meet with Pope Francis in Rome; | The Guardian’s correspondent in Rome, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has filed some analysis on the request from survivors of child sexual abuse to meet with Pope Francis in Rome; |
| Will he or won’t he? It is far from clear whether Pope Francis will meet with a group of abuse survivors who have come to Rome from Australia to witness Cardinal Pell’s testimony. The pope has met with survivors of sex abuse twice since he was elected pope in 2013: once in the Vatican and once on his trip last year to the US. | Will he or won’t he? It is far from clear whether Pope Francis will meet with a group of abuse survivors who have come to Rome from Australia to witness Cardinal Pell’s testimony. The pope has met with survivors of sex abuse twice since he was elected pope in 2013: once in the Vatican and once on his trip last year to the US. |
| He has been criticised at times for not meeting more frequently with victims: he did not meet with victims on his recent trip to Mexico and he did not respond to a demand by a survivor, Peter Saunders, when Saunders was in Rome recently to attend a meeting of the pope’s special commission to develop policies to prevent and address clerical sexual abuse. | He has been criticised at times for not meeting more frequently with victims: he did not meet with victims on his recent trip to Mexico and he did not respond to a demand by a survivor, Peter Saunders, when Saunders was in Rome recently to attend a meeting of the pope’s special commission to develop policies to prevent and address clerical sexual abuse. |
| The pope is often seen as a man who disdains being pressured into any decision or being forced into a meeting due to media pressure. But the Catholic church is facing new scrutiny on several fronts: from questions about the adequacy of the church’s policy on when to report suspected abuse, to damaging revelations that have emerged about Cardinal Pell – and the questions he failed to ask – in his commission testimony, to a new report out of Pennsylvania about decades of alleged abuse of hundreds of children and attempts to cover up the abuse. | The pope is often seen as a man who disdains being pressured into any decision or being forced into a meeting due to media pressure. But the Catholic church is facing new scrutiny on several fronts: from questions about the adequacy of the church’s policy on when to report suspected abuse, to damaging revelations that have emerged about Cardinal Pell – and the questions he failed to ask – in his commission testimony, to a new report out of Pennsylvania about decades of alleged abuse of hundreds of children and attempts to cover up the abuse. |
| If Pope Francis feels he needs to more forcefully address the abuse issue, a meeting with the survivors could be a good way to start. | If Pope Francis feels he needs to more forcefully address the abuse issue, a meeting with the survivors could be a good way to start. |
| You can follow Stephanie’s updates on Twitter here. | You can follow Stephanie’s updates on Twitter here. |
| Survivors have formally requested a meeting with @pontifex. They leave for Australia on Friday, haven't heard back from Vatican yet. | Survivors have formally requested a meeting with @pontifex. They leave for Australia on Friday, haven't heard back from Vatican yet. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.30pm GMT | at 11.30pm GMT |
| 11.15pm GMT | 11.15pm GMT |
| 23:15 | 23:15 |
| Furness reminds Pell that a delegation came to him in 1989, when he held the position of regional bishop, to complain about Searson’s behaviour towards children. | Furness reminds Pell that a delegation came to him in 1989, when he held the position of regional bishop, to complain about Searson’s behaviour towards children. |
| Before this meeting, Pell was provided with a list of grievances against Searson, Furness says, producing the list for the commission. That list was put together by the Catholic Education Office. | Before this meeting, Pell was provided with a list of grievances against Searson, Furness says, producing the list for the commission. That list was put together by the Catholic Education Office. |
| The list included various health and safety issues in relation to Searson’s behaviour. A small group of children were shown a dead body in a coffin, and also witnessed Searson’s cruelty to an animal. | The list included various health and safety issues in relation to Searson’s behaviour. A small group of children were shown a dead body in a coffin, and also witnessed Searson’s cruelty to an animal. |
| The complaint also said Searson used the children’s toilets and harassed them, as well as demanded children attend reconciliation with him without warning and one-on-one. | The complaint also said Searson used the children’s toilets and harassed them, as well as demanded children attend reconciliation with him without warning and one-on-one. |
| However, Pell says he had “no adequate background briefing on the long-term problems [of Searson] at all”. | However, Pell says he had “no adequate background briefing on the long-term problems [of Searson] at all”. |
| Justice Peter McClellan interjects. He points out that Pell had been briefed by the education office about grievances against Searson. | Justice Peter McClellan interjects. He points out that Pell had been briefed by the education office about grievances against Searson. |
| Pell replies, “The education office, through the local person, did not give me anything like adequate information.” | Pell replies, “The education office, through the local person, did not give me anything like adequate information.” |
| Cd. Pell says the Education Office lied to him about extent of problems with Searson.Q: "they deceived you?" A: "Yes" #CARoyalComm | Cd. Pell says the Education Office lied to him about extent of problems with Searson.Q: "they deceived you?" A: "Yes" #CARoyalComm |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.19pm GMT | at 11.19pm GMT |
| 11.06pm GMT | 11.06pm GMT |
| 23:06 | 23:06 |
| Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged. | Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged. |
| Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat. | Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat. |
| Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?” | Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?” |
| Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to take your word for that.” | Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to take your word for that.” |
| Furness: “Well, rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?” | Furness: “Well, rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?” |
| Pell: “Yes.” | Pell: “Yes.” |
| Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?” | Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?” |
| Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.” | Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.17pm GMT | at 11.17pm GMT |
| 10.54pm GMT | 10.54pm GMT |
| 22:54 | 22:54 |
| From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten. | From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten. |
| Shorten said he finds it "disturbing" and "challenging" listening to Pell's answers in Royal Comm. @MelissaLDavey @murpharoo | Shorten said he finds it "disturbing" and "challenging" listening to Pell's answers in Royal Comm. @MelissaLDavey @murpharoo |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.57pm GMT | at 10.57pm GMT |