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Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live
(35 minutes later)
12.12am GMT
00:12
Pell is saying his role as principal of the Institute of Catholic education in the early 1980s was a legitimate reason that he was not aware of widespread rumours that Father Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children.
Chair or the royal commission, Justice Peter McClellan, questions Pell about this. Pell was still living in Ballarat at the time.
McClellan; “Do you think that given the nature of the allegations and given the number of people that we can assume have knowledge of them, including senior church people, do you think it might be surprising that you didn’t hear any rumour at all?”
Pell: “Not necessarily, given the work I was doing. I wasn’t working full-time in the diocese. I was very much involved in the world of tertiary education.”
McClellan: “Where were you living?”
Pell: “With Bishop O’Collins” [in the house of St Alipius in Ballarat East].
McClellan: “Were you saying mass regularly on Sundays?”
Pell: “I was at Ballarat East.”
McClellan: “That was every Sunday, was it?”
Pell: “Yes.”
McClellan: “I assume three times a day, would that be right?”
Pell: “Three times a Sunday, generally.”
McClellan: “No doubt, before and after the mass, you would speak to members of the congregations, would that be right?”
Pell: “When that was possible,that was my - that was certainly my practice.”
Updated
at 12.12am GMT
12.02am GMT
00:02
Furness is turning her attention to Pell’s cousin, Father Henry Nolan. Nolan, who was vicar general at the time, took action immediately upon realising a 14 year-old boy was being made to sleep in the same room as notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale.
Nolan demanded the child be removed, Furness said, despite not having direct authority over the Mortlake parish.
Furness: “That is an example, isn’t it, of a priest who didn’t have structural responsibility of taking a responsible course of action and having the child removed?”
Pell: “He was vicar general at that stage but what he did was excellent.
Furness: “What he did was available to any priest, I suggest to you, to demand action be taken to protect children.”
11.53pm GMT
23:53
Pell: I can’t nominate another bishop whose actions are so grave and inexplicable
The bishop of Ballarat between 1971 and 1997, Ronald Mulkearns, behaved reprehensibly towards victims of child sexual abuse and their concerned parents, Cardinal George Pell has told the commission. The commission heard that in reaction to one parent who came to him to say her children were being abused, Mulkearns “just stared”.
Furness asks Pell: “Do you think Bishop Mulkearns is just one bad apple, as it were, within the Catholic church as a bishop by conducting himself in the way that he has up until this date?”
Pell: “Unfortunately, I would have to say that I can’t nominate another bishop whose actions are so grave and inexplicable. There might be some but they don’t come to mind. His repeated refusal to act is, I think, absolutely extraordinary.”
Updated
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11.47pm GMT
23:47
Furness is taking Pell through the various abuses Gerald Ridsdale inflicted on children in Mortlake. She’s also taking him through the numerous people who knew a 14 year-old boy, Paul Levey, was living with Ridsdale. She’s also presenting him with documents that details complaints made about Ridsdale. Pell maintains he was unaware of all of this.
Furness: “You will see that [a parent] BAI rang the family doctor and asked him what he could tell about people who molested children. She doesn’t recall if she named Ridsdale but he was the only priest in Mortlake.
“Again, stopping there, we have now at this stage in Mortlake the family doctor being aware there was a problem with Ridsdale, a number of people knowing that there was a boy living in the presbytery with Ridsdale and Father Finnigan being aware that one set of parents was concerned about the welfare of their child around Ridsdale. Do you agree with that?”
Pell: “I do.”
Furness: “It is getting close to common knowledge, isn’t it?”
Pell: “Certainly those people knew. Could I just repeat something I have said partially before. Some time around 1980, I became principal of the institute of Catholic education which had 2000 students in Ballarat and Melbourne. It is not a small job. I was in Melbourne at least a couple of times a week, so I certainly wasn’t in with the life of the diocese like someone who would be working full-time in parishes.”
Furness ignores this disclaimer, and continues with her questioning.
Updated
at 11.48pm GMT
11.31pm GMT11.31pm GMT
23:3123:31
"Cardinal, do you accept any responsibility at all?" 'Cardinal, do you accept any responsibility at all?'
Gail Furness asks Cardinal Pell if accepts any responsibility for pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, being moved from parish to parish rather than reported to police. Gail Furness asks Cardinal Pell if accepts any responsibility for paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale being moved from parish to parish rather than reported to police.
Pell responds: “No, I do not.”Pell responds: “No, I do not.”
#Pell says he did nothing wrong. End of story. Says he accepts no responsibility at all. #CARoyalComm @theheraldsun pic.twitter.com/WKwbAdXIVt#Pell says he did nothing wrong. End of story. Says he accepts no responsibility at all. #CARoyalComm @theheraldsun pic.twitter.com/WKwbAdXIVt
Updated
at 11.46pm GMT
11.26pm GMT11.26pm GMT
23:2623:26
Furness: “It was more than just leadership, wasn’t it? It was all parish priests, assistant priests, advisers, consultors, who all collectively failed to protect children who were living and under the care of the Church in that diocese in the ‘70s and ‘80s?”Furness: “It was more than just leadership, wasn’t it? It was all parish priests, assistant priests, advisers, consultors, who all collectively failed to protect children who were living and under the care of the Church in that diocese in the ‘70s and ‘80s?”
Pell: “I think that is a vast and misleading overstatement. It goes far beyond any evidence where there is evidence that people knew of misbehaviour or they knew of a practical danger they should have acted. We are not permitted to go beyond the evidence.”Pell: “I think that is a vast and misleading overstatement. It goes far beyond any evidence where there is evidence that people knew of misbehaviour or they knew of a practical danger they should have acted. We are not permitted to go beyond the evidence.”
Furness: “Well, there’s evidence, isn’t there, that more than one parish priest knew of allegations against Ridsdale?”Furness: “Well, there’s evidence, isn’t there, that more than one parish priest knew of allegations against Ridsdale?”
Pell: “That is correct”.Pell: “That is correct”.
"Where people knew they should have acted," says #Pell. True again. #CARoyalComm"Where people knew they should have acted," says #Pell. True again. #CARoyalComm
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.32pm GMTat 11.32pm GMT
11.23pm GMT11.23pm GMT
23:2323:23
"You don’t need a magic wand. You just need a group of adults who are responsible, don’t you?” 'You don’t need a magic wand. You just need a group of adults who are responsible, don’t you?'
Furness is turning Pell to a statement from an abuse survivor, Paul Levey. Paul is at the commission hearing in Rome watching Pell give his evidence.Furness is turning Pell to a statement from an abuse survivor, Paul Levey. Paul is at the commission hearing in Rome watching Pell give his evidence.
Paul Levey is one of the abuse survivors from Ballarat now in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. pic.twitter.com/9u7omIKwD4Paul Levey is one of the abuse survivors from Ballarat now in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. pic.twitter.com/9u7omIKwD4
Furness tells Pell that Levey was “sexually abused all the time just about every day” at the Mortlake parish.Furness tells Pell that Levey was “sexually abused all the time just about every day” at the Mortlake parish.
Furness: He describes he always slept in pedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale’s room and there was a house keeper and always people coming and going, including people having parish meetings at the presbytery. And then he refers to living at the presbytery in Mortlake. Furness: “He describes he always slept in paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale’s room and there was a housekeeper and always people coming and going, including people having parish meetings at the presbytery. And then he refers to living at the presbytery in Mortlake.”
Pell: “I was director of the Aquinas campus and at that stage, I was principal of the entire institute of Catholic education”. Pell: “I was director of the Aquinas campus and at that stage, I was principal of the entire institute of Catholic education.”
Furness: “If you had discovered that a 14-year-oldchild was living in apresbytery, you would have donewhat you could to take thechild out, wouldn’t you? Furness: “If you had discovered that a 14-year-old child was living in a presbytery, you would have done what you could to take the child out, wouldn’t you?
Pell: “Well, before that I would certainly have wanted to know why the child was there, and what precautions were in place and whether this was something that was temporary or permanent.”Pell: “Well, before that I would certainly have wanted to know why the child was there, and what precautions were in place and whether this was something that was temporary or permanent.”
Furness: “Now, if you had known that there had been complaints about Ridsdale of a sexual nature before the child was placed in the presbytery, you would never have put that child there, would you?”Furness: “Now, if you had known that there had been complaints about Ridsdale of a sexual nature before the child was placed in the presbytery, you would never have put that child there, would you?”
Pell: “Certainly not.”Pell: “Certainly not.”
Furness: “And once you had discovered that the child was there, it would be wrong to do anything other than take the child out?. Isn’t that right? Furness: “And once you had discovered that the child was there, it would be wrong to do anything other than take the child out. Isn’t that right?”
Pell: That recommendation that the child be taken out if it wasn’t in my power to do so.” Pell: “That recommendation that the child be taken out if it wasn’t in my power to do so.”
Furness: “You would do more than recommend, Cardinal, wouldn’t you?”Furness: “You would do more than recommend, Cardinal, wouldn’t you?”
Pell: “I would do whatever was in my power in such hypothetical situations. I think we are all surrounded by real constraint s and sometimes we’re able to say this must be done, sometimes we’re able to ensure that it is done. Sometimes such a recommendation would be rejected and you would have to appeal to another party. Because something is wrong you can’t wave a magic wand and correct the situation easily in every situation.” Pell: “I would do whatever was in my power in such hypothetical situations. I think we are all surrounded by real constraints and sometimes we’re able to say this must be done, sometimes we’re able to ensure that it is done. Sometimes such a recommendation would be rejected and you would have to appeal to another party. Because something is wrong you can’t wave a magic wand and correct the situation easily in every situation.”
Furness: “We’re talking about the safety of children, Cardinal. You don’t need a magic wand. You just need a group of adults who are responsible, don’t you?”Furness: “We’re talking about the safety of children, Cardinal. You don’t need a magic wand. You just need a group of adults who are responsible, don’t you?”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.34pm GMT at 11.51pm GMT
11.14pm GMT11.14pm GMT
23:1423:14
Furness is going back to comments made by Pell that his first inclination back in the 1970s would be to accept the word of the priest who denied an allegation of child sexual abuse, rather than to believe a victim.Furness is going back to comments made by Pell that his first inclination back in the 1970s would be to accept the word of the priest who denied an allegation of child sexual abuse, rather than to believe a victim.
Pell confirms: “I would have said my first instinct would have been to accept the protestation of innocence - innocence from the priest, until it was disproven. But that I, especially for my experience as a bishop, I came to see this was quite unreliable criteria. Pell confirms: “I would have said my first instinct would have been to accept the protestation of innocence – innocence from the priest, until it was disproven. But that I, especially [from] my experience as a bishop, I came to see this was quite unreliable criteria.
Furness: My recollection certainly, Cardinal, is that you put forward a period of time up to the mid-to late ‘80s as when these views were views held by the Church. Furness: My recollection certainly, Cardinal, is that you put forward a period of time up to the mid-to late 80s as when these views were views held by the Church.
Pell: “Well, I wouldn’t have described them as views held the Church. I would have been talking about my view and the view of a number of the other priests. I certainly acknowledge that from the middle ‘80s we got much greater clarity on these things. But all along there was - there should have been a presumption that we went with the truth. Your starting point might have been - or is different now. But the obligation to truth is exactly the same.” Pell: “Well, I wouldn’t have described them as views held [by] the church. I would have been talking about my view and the view of a number of the other priests. I certainly acknowledge that from the middle 80s we got much greater clarity on these things. But all along there was – there should have been a presumption that we went with the truth. Your starting point might have been – or is different now. But the obligation to truth is exactly the same.”
Updated
at 11.52pm GMT
11.03pm GMT11.03pm GMT
23:0323:03
The commission resumesThe commission resumes
We’re back following the morning adjournment.We’re back following the morning adjournment.
Questioning about notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, is continuing. Ridsdale is now in jail, having committed hundreds of offences against children. By the time Pell says he became aware of Ridsdale’s abusing, in the 1990s, Pell was no longer working alongside him. Questioning about notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale is continuing. Ridsdale is now in jail, having committed hundreds of offences against children. By the time Pell says he became aware of Ridsdale’s abusing, in the 1990s, Pell was no longer working alongside him.
By then, Pell says, Ridsdale had “significant dementia”.By then, Pell says, Ridsdale had “significant dementia”.
“The poor man ... after a couple of years he couldn’t even remember what job he had. So it was - it went from significant dementia to radical, radical dementia over the two or three years I was with him. So it was difficult to say I had a coherent conversation with him.” “The poor man ... after a couple of years he couldn’t even remember what job he had. So it was – it went from significant dementia to radical, radical dementia over the two or three years I was with him. So it was difficult to say I had a coherent conversation with him.”
Updated
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10.57pm GMT10.57pm GMT
22:5722:57
Leonie Sheedy, head of the Care Leavers Australia Network for child sexual abuse survivors, says she found Pell’s evidence this morning “disgraceful”.Leonie Sheedy, head of the Care Leavers Australia Network for child sexual abuse survivors, says she found Pell’s evidence this morning “disgraceful”.
“Saying that priests were removed from parishes because they were restless? I was just so shocked,” she says.“Saying that priests were removed from parishes because they were restless? I was just so shocked,” she says.
Pell’s comments that abuse allegations “wasn’t of much interest” to him were distressing, Sheedy said.Pell’s comments that abuse allegations “wasn’t of much interest” to him were distressing, Sheedy said.
“It just shows the lack of empathy and understanding. The audience were just... just gobsmacked. We were shocked.”“It just shows the lack of empathy and understanding. The audience were just... just gobsmacked. We were shocked.”
She praised Furness and McClellan for their thorough line of questioning.She praised Furness and McClellan for their thorough line of questioning.
Victims not happy with #Pell evidence, one wants @Pontifex to intervene. They will have more to say at the end of #CARoyalComm hearing.Victims not happy with #Pell evidence, one wants @Pontifex to intervene. They will have more to say at the end of #CARoyalComm hearing.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.06pm GMTat 11.06pm GMT
10.47pm GMT10.47pm GMT
22:4722:47
Some reactions to an explosive morning of evidence.Some reactions to an explosive morning of evidence.
Mulkearns and Fiscalini thrown under the bus. #Pell was "deceived"! #royalcommission #CARoyalCommMulkearns and Fiscalini thrown under the bus. #Pell was "deceived"! #royalcommission #CARoyalComm
Pell's throwing everyone else under the bus and taking no responsibility on himself #CARoyalCommPell's throwing everyone else under the bus and taking no responsibility on himself #CARoyalComm
McClellan: Are you saying to this commission that between 1977 and 1979 you knew nothing about Ridsdale's offending?Pell: yesMcClellan: Are you saying to this commission that between 1977 and 1979 you knew nothing about Ridsdale's offending?Pell: yes
#CARoyalComm #Pell 'there wasn't social media at that time" So ppl don't talk in a small town of 8,000 ? Over two years?#CARoyalComm #Pell 'there wasn't social media at that time" So ppl don't talk in a small town of 8,000 ? Over two years?
Cardinal #Pell says he was deceived by bishops & priests, didnt know of Ridsdale abuse until after he was convicted. For more @7NewsSydneyCardinal #Pell says he was deceived by bishops & priests, didnt know of Ridsdale abuse until after he was convicted. For more @7NewsSydney
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.59pm GMTat 10.59pm GMT
10.39pm GMT10.39pm GMT
22:3922:39
Morning adjournmentMorning adjournment
The commission is taking a short break after an extraordinary morning of evidence from Cardinal George Pell. To recap;The commission is taking a short break after an extraordinary morning of evidence from Cardinal George Pell. To recap;
Melissa Davey with you here. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook, and I’ll do my best to answer any of your questions.Melissa Davey with you here. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook, and I’ll do my best to answer any of your questions.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.00pm GMTat 11.00pm GMT
10.33pm GMT10.33pm GMT
22:3322:33
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is not letting Pell off on his comments that he did share in the widespread knowledge that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children within Ballarat parishes. Especially given he was a link between the parish and senior figures in his role as consultor.Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is not letting Pell off on his comments that he did share in the widespread knowledge that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children within Ballarat parishes. Especially given he was a link between the parish and senior figures in his role as consultor.
Furness is trying to understand how that was the case Pell did not know. Her line of questioning is clearly frustrating Pell, who is growing impatient and who encouraged Furness to read her documents.Furness is trying to understand how that was the case Pell did not know. Her line of questioning is clearly frustrating Pell, who is growing impatient and who encouraged Furness to read her documents.
Furness: “And in your own language, you were the essential link between the bishop and the parents,teacher, children and principals of Catholic schools?”Furness: “And in your own language, you were the essential link between the bishop and the parents,teacher, children and principals of Catholic schools?”
Pell: “I find that an extraordinary claim in the light of the discussion that we had yesterday where we did a detailed study of the passage where it was pointed out very clearly that the Episcopal Vicar was one part of an essential linking between the bishop and the educational institutions and that linkage was a religious linkage.”Pell: “I find that an extraordinary claim in the light of the discussion that we had yesterday where we did a detailed study of the passage where it was pointed out very clearly that the Episcopal Vicar was one part of an essential linking between the bishop and the educational institutions and that linkage was a religious linkage.”
Furness: “Ultimately, it will be a matter for commissioners as to decide the meaning of your words in that document,Cardinal. Can I turn now to-Furness: “Ultimately, it will be a matter for commissioners as to decide the meaning of your words in that document,Cardinal. Can I turn now to-
Pell: Could I suggest that for both of us the obligation is to study the words in the document and to conclude from that?”Pell: Could I suggest that for both of us the obligation is to study the words in the document and to conclude from that?”
Furness: “Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.”Furness: “Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.”
'Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.' Ouch. #CARoyalComm'Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.' Ouch. #CARoyalComm
Big slap from Ms Furness...and thoroughly deserved. #Pell #CARoyalCommBig slap from Ms Furness...and thoroughly deserved. #Pell #CARoyalComm
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.43pm GMTat 10.43pm GMT
10.23pm GMT10.23pm GMT
22:2322:23
McClellan: 'We have to determine a very serious issue'McClellan: 'We have to determine a very serious issue'
Justice Peter McClellan is interrogating Pell on why senior figures in the church would have known that Gerald Ridsdale, who committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, would have known about his abuse while Pell did not.Justice Peter McClellan is interrogating Pell on why senior figures in the church would have known that Gerald Ridsdale, who committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, would have known about his abuse while Pell did not.
McClellan says; “I don’t understand why the bishop would choose to deceive you or lie to you, a member of his consultors, about Ridsdale’s behaviour when it was common knowledge in at least two of the parishes. Given that it was common knowledge amongst many people why would he choose to deceive you?”McClellan says; “I don’t understand why the bishop would choose to deceive you or lie to you, a member of his consultors, about Ridsdale’s behaviour when it was common knowledge in at least two of the parishes. Given that it was common knowledge amongst many people why would he choose to deceive you?”
Pell: “Because he would realise that I didn’t know and he did not want me to share in his culpability and also I think he would not have wanted to mention it to me and some – at least some other members of the consultors because we were – at the very minimum we would have asked questions about the propriety of such a practice.”Pell: “Because he would realise that I didn’t know and he did not want me to share in his culpability and also I think he would not have wanted to mention it to me and some – at least some other members of the consultors because we were – at the very minimum we would have asked questions about the propriety of such a practice.”
McClellan: “What is wrong with that? That was your job, wasn’t it?”McClellan: “What is wrong with that? That was your job, wasn’t it?”
Pell: “I’m trying to explain why he didn’t do it. Of course it was our job and almost certainly it would have been done.”Pell: “I’m trying to explain why he didn’t do it. Of course it was our job and almost certainly it would have been done.”
McClellan: “You say you speak of the bishop’s culpability. If we were to come to the view that you did know, you would be culpable too, wouldn’t you?”McClellan: “You say you speak of the bishop’s culpability. If we were to come to the view that you did know, you would be culpable too, wouldn’t you?”
Pell: “That’s correct.”Pell: “That’s correct.”
McClellan: So we have – we have to determine a very serious issue, don’t we?”McClellan: So we have – we have to determine a very serious issue, don’t we?”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.02pm GMTat 11.02pm GMT