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Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live
(35 minutes later)
11.31pm GMT
23:31
"Cardinal, do you accept any responsibility at all?"
Gail Furness asks Cardinal Pell if accepts any responsibility for pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, being moved from parish to parish rather than reported to police.
Pell responds: “No, I do not.”
#Pell says he did nothing wrong. End of story. Says he accepts no responsibility at all. #CARoyalComm @theheraldsun pic.twitter.com/WKwbAdXIVt
11.26pm GMT
23:26
Furness: “It was more than just leadership, wasn’t it? It was all parish priests, assistant priests, advisers, consultors, who all collectively failed to protect children who were living and under the care of the Church in that diocese in the ‘70s and ‘80s?”
Pell: “I think that is a vast and misleading overstatement. It goes far beyond any evidence where there is evidence that people knew of misbehaviour or they knew of a practical danger they should have acted. We are not permitted to go beyond the evidence.”
Furness: “Well, there’s evidence, isn’t there, that more than one parish priest knew of allegations against Ridsdale?”
Pell: “That is correct”.
"Where people knew they should have acted," says #Pell. True again. #CARoyalComm
Updated
at 11.32pm GMT
11.23pm GMT
23:23
"You don’t need a magic wand. You just need a group of adults who are responsible, don’t you?”
Furness is turning Pell to a statement from an abuse survivor, Paul Levey. Paul is at the commission hearing in Rome watching Pell give his evidence.
Paul Levey is one of the abuse survivors from Ballarat now in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. pic.twitter.com/9u7omIKwD4
Furness tells Pell that Levey was “sexually abused all the time just about every day” at the Mortlake parish.
Furness: He describes he always slept in pedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale’s room and there was a house keeper and always people coming and going, including people having parish meetings at the presbytery. And then he refers to living at the presbytery in Mortlake.
Pell: “I was director of the Aquinas campus and at that stage, I was principal of the entire institute of Catholic education”.
Furness: “If you had discovered that a 14-year-oldchild was living in apresbytery, you would have donewhat you could to take thechild out, wouldn’t you?
Pell: “Well, before that I would certainly have wanted to know why the child was there, and what precautions were in place and whether this was something that was temporary or permanent.”
Furness: “Now, if you had known that there had been complaints about Ridsdale of a sexual nature before the child was placed in the presbytery, you would never have put that child there, would you?”
Pell: “Certainly not.”
Furness: “And once you had discovered that the child was there, it would be wrong to do anything other than take the child out?. Isn’t that right?
Pell: That recommendation that the child be taken out if it wasn’t in my power to do so.”
Furness: “You would do more than recommend, Cardinal, wouldn’t you?”
Pell: “I would do whatever was in my power in such hypothetical situations. I think we are all surrounded by real constraint s and sometimes we’re able to say this must be done, sometimes we’re able to ensure that it is done. Sometimes such a recommendation would be rejected and you would have to appeal to another party. Because something is wrong you can’t wave a magic wand and correct the situation easily in every situation.”
Furness: “We’re talking about the safety of children, Cardinal. You don’t need a magic wand. You just need a group of adults who are responsible, don’t you?”
Updated
at 11.34pm GMT
11.14pm GMT
23:14
Furness is going back to comments made by Pell that his first inclination back in the 1970s would be to accept the word of the priest who denied an allegation of child sexual abuse, rather than to believe a victim.
Pell confirms: “I would have said my first instinct would have been to accept the protestation of innocence - innocence from the priest, until it was disproven. But that I, especially for my experience as a bishop, I came to see this was quite unreliable criteria.
Furness: My recollection certainly, Cardinal, is that you put forward a period of time up to the mid-to late ‘80s as when these views were views held by the Church.
Pell: “Well, I wouldn’t have described them as views held the Church. I would have been talking about my view and the view of a number of the other priests. I certainly acknowledge that from the middle ‘80s we got much greater clarity on these things. But all along there was - there should have been a presumption that we went with the truth. Your starting point might have been - or is different now. But the obligation to truth is exactly the same.”
11.03pm GMT11.03pm GMT
23:0323:03
The commission resumesThe commission resumes
We’re back following the morning adjournment.We’re back following the morning adjournment.
Questioning about notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, is continuing. Ridsdale is now in jail, having committed hundreds of offences against children. By the time Pell says he became aware of Ridsdale’s abusing, in the 1990s, Pell was no longer working alongside him.Questioning about notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, is continuing. Ridsdale is now in jail, having committed hundreds of offences against children. By the time Pell says he became aware of Ridsdale’s abusing, in the 1990s, Pell was no longer working alongside him.
By then, Pell says, Ridsdale had “significant dementia”.By then, Pell says, Ridsdale had “significant dementia”.
“The poor man ... after a couple of years he couldn’t even remember what job he had. So it was - it went from significant dementia to radical, radical dementia over the two or three years I was with him. So it was difficult to say I had a coherent conversation with him.”“The poor man ... after a couple of years he couldn’t even remember what job he had. So it was - it went from significant dementia to radical, radical dementia over the two or three years I was with him. So it was difficult to say I had a coherent conversation with him.”
10.57pm GMT10.57pm GMT
22:5722:57
Leonie Sheedy, head of the Care Leavers Australia Network for child sexual abuse survivors, says she found Pell’s evidence this morning “disgraceful”.Leonie Sheedy, head of the Care Leavers Australia Network for child sexual abuse survivors, says she found Pell’s evidence this morning “disgraceful”.
“Saying that priests were removed from parishes because they were restless? I was just so shocked,” she says.“Saying that priests were removed from parishes because they were restless? I was just so shocked,” she says.
Pell’s comments that abuse allegations “wasn’t of much interest” to him were distressing, Sheedy said.Pell’s comments that abuse allegations “wasn’t of much interest” to him were distressing, Sheedy said.
“It just shows the lack of empathy and understanding. The audience were just... just gobsmacked. We were shocked.”“It just shows the lack of empathy and understanding. The audience were just... just gobsmacked. We were shocked.”
She praised Furness and McClellan for their thorough line of questioning.She praised Furness and McClellan for their thorough line of questioning.
Victims not happy with #Pell evidence, one wants @Pontifex to intervene. They will have more to say at the end of #CARoyalComm hearing.Victims not happy with #Pell evidence, one wants @Pontifex to intervene. They will have more to say at the end of #CARoyalComm hearing.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.06pm GMTat 11.06pm GMT
10.47pm GMT10.47pm GMT
22:4722:47
Some reactions to an explosive morning of evidence.Some reactions to an explosive morning of evidence.
Mulkearns and Fiscalini thrown under the bus. #Pell was "deceived"! #royalcommission #CARoyalCommMulkearns and Fiscalini thrown under the bus. #Pell was "deceived"! #royalcommission #CARoyalComm
Pell's throwing everyone else under the bus and taking no responsibility on himself #CARoyalCommPell's throwing everyone else under the bus and taking no responsibility on himself #CARoyalComm
McClellan: Are you saying to this commission that between 1977 and 1979 you knew nothing about Ridsdale's offending?Pell: yesMcClellan: Are you saying to this commission that between 1977 and 1979 you knew nothing about Ridsdale's offending?Pell: yes
#CARoyalComm #Pell 'there wasn't social media at that time" So ppl don't talk in a small town of 8,000 ? Over two years?#CARoyalComm #Pell 'there wasn't social media at that time" So ppl don't talk in a small town of 8,000 ? Over two years?
Cardinal #Pell says he was deceived by bishops & priests, didnt know of Ridsdale abuse until after he was convicted. For more @7NewsSydneyCardinal #Pell says he was deceived by bishops & priests, didnt know of Ridsdale abuse until after he was convicted. For more @7NewsSydney
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.59pm GMTat 10.59pm GMT
10.39pm GMT10.39pm GMT
22:3922:39
Morning adjournmentMorning adjournment
The commission is taking a short break after an extraordinary morning of evidence from Cardinal George Pell. To recap;The commission is taking a short break after an extraordinary morning of evidence from Cardinal George Pell. To recap;
Melissa Davey with you here. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook, and I’ll do my best to answer any of your questions.Melissa Davey with you here. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook, and I’ll do my best to answer any of your questions.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.00pm GMTat 11.00pm GMT
10.33pm GMT10.33pm GMT
22:3322:33
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is not letting Pell off on his comments that he did share in the widespread knowledge that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children within Ballarat parishes. Especially given he was a link between the parish and senior figures in his role as consultor.Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is not letting Pell off on his comments that he did share in the widespread knowledge that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children within Ballarat parishes. Especially given he was a link between the parish and senior figures in his role as consultor.
Furness is trying to understand how that was the case Pell did not know. Her line of questioning is clearly frustrating Pell, who is growing impatient and who encouraged Furness to read her documents.Furness is trying to understand how that was the case Pell did not know. Her line of questioning is clearly frustrating Pell, who is growing impatient and who encouraged Furness to read her documents.
Furness: “And in your own language, you were the essential link between the bishop and the parents,teacher, children and principals of Catholic schools?”Furness: “And in your own language, you were the essential link between the bishop and the parents,teacher, children and principals of Catholic schools?”
Pell: “I find that an extraordinary claim in the light of the discussion that we had yesterday where we did a detailed study of the passage where it was pointed out very clearly that the Episcopal Vicar was one part of an essential linking between the bishop and the educational institutions and that linkage was a religious linkage.”Pell: “I find that an extraordinary claim in the light of the discussion that we had yesterday where we did a detailed study of the passage where it was pointed out very clearly that the Episcopal Vicar was one part of an essential linking between the bishop and the educational institutions and that linkage was a religious linkage.”
Furness: “Ultimately, it will be a matter for commissioners as to decide the meaning of your words in that document,Cardinal. Can I turn now to-Furness: “Ultimately, it will be a matter for commissioners as to decide the meaning of your words in that document,Cardinal. Can I turn now to-
Pell: Could I suggest that for both of us the obligation is to study the words in the document and to conclude from that?”Pell: Could I suggest that for both of us the obligation is to study the words in the document and to conclude from that?”
Furness: “Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.”Furness: “Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.”
'Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.' Ouch. #CARoyalComm'Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.' Ouch. #CARoyalComm
Big slap from Ms Furness...and thoroughly deserved. #Pell #CARoyalCommBig slap from Ms Furness...and thoroughly deserved. #Pell #CARoyalComm
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.43pm GMTat 10.43pm GMT
10.23pm GMT10.23pm GMT
22:2322:23
McClellan: 'We have to determine a very serious issue'McClellan: 'We have to determine a very serious issue'
Justice Peter McClellan is interrogating Pell on why senior figures in the church would have known that Gerald Ridsdale, who committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, would have known about his abuse while Pell did not.Justice Peter McClellan is interrogating Pell on why senior figures in the church would have known that Gerald Ridsdale, who committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, would have known about his abuse while Pell did not.
McClellan says; “I don’t understand why the bishop would choose to deceive you or lie to you, a member of his consultors, about Ridsdale’s behaviour when it was common knowledge in at least two of the parishes. Given that it was common knowledge amongst many people why would he choose to deceive you?”McClellan says; “I don’t understand why the bishop would choose to deceive you or lie to you, a member of his consultors, about Ridsdale’s behaviour when it was common knowledge in at least two of the parishes. Given that it was common knowledge amongst many people why would he choose to deceive you?”
Pell: “Because he would realise that I didn’t know and he did not want me to share in his culpability and also I think he would not have wanted to mention it to me and some – at least some other members of the consultors because we were – at the very minimum we would have asked questions about the propriety of such a practice.”Pell: “Because he would realise that I didn’t know and he did not want me to share in his culpability and also I think he would not have wanted to mention it to me and some – at least some other members of the consultors because we were – at the very minimum we would have asked questions about the propriety of such a practice.”
McClellan: “What is wrong with that? That was your job, wasn’t it?”McClellan: “What is wrong with that? That was your job, wasn’t it?”
Pell: “I’m trying to explain why he didn’t do it. Of course it was our job and almost certainly it would have been done.”Pell: “I’m trying to explain why he didn’t do it. Of course it was our job and almost certainly it would have been done.”
McClellan: “You say you speak of the bishop’s culpability. If we were to come to the view that you did know, you would be culpable too, wouldn’t you?”McClellan: “You say you speak of the bishop’s culpability. If we were to come to the view that you did know, you would be culpable too, wouldn’t you?”
Pell: “That’s correct.”Pell: “That’s correct.”
McClellan: So we have – we have to determine a very serious issue, don’t we?”McClellan: So we have – we have to determine a very serious issue, don’t we?”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.02pm GMTat 11.02pm GMT
10.17pm GMT
22:17
"We work within a framework of Christian moral teaching"
Furness is really pressing Pell on how he could not have known that Ridsdale was abusing dozens of children given that it was common knowledge within the diocese of Ballarat, given that Pell was a senior figure within the diocese as a consultor and assistant priest with direct access to the Bishop, and given the bishop at the time, Ronald Mulkearns and many other senior figures, knew of the abuse.
Surely, given priests are “human”, Furness says, priests would have talked to each other about the abusing, including to Pell, she says.
Pell replies; “Human beings in different categories have very different approaches to these matters. We work within the framework of Christian moral teaching.”
[There are scoffs heard on the Sydney end of the hearing]
Pell: “Would you like me to continue?”
Furness: “I would indeed.”
Pell: “We work within a framework of Christian moral teaching or certainly we should. And discussion of the secret faults of others is not encouraged.”
Furness: “The problems with Ridsdale were not secret, Cardinal. They were known, the evidence says, by two communities ... Ridsdale says there must have been talk about town. Now, to suggest, Cardinal, as you have repeatedly, that knowledge about Ridsdale was secret is just not true.”
The hole is getting deeper. #Pell #CARoyalComm
Some rather impressive questioning taking place by Commissioner and SC #Pell seems to be uncertain as to which way is up (rooted)
Updated
at 10.39pm GMT
10.11pm GMT
22:11
The commission chair, Justice Peter McClellan, who is widely respected by child sex abuse survivors, appears to be growing impatient with Pell. He repeatedly presses Pell to “answer my question”.
McClellan: “Why were you were sitting at that meeting, why did you think that Ridsdale had been moved in this irregular way?”
Pell: “Because obviously there were a series of difficulties but it certainly was not stated that those difficulties touched on paedophilia and crimes.”
McClellan: “Did you ask what the difficulties were?”
Pell: “I can’t remember specifically asking. But there would have been some generalised explanation.”
McClellan: “Generalised explanation - could you help me to understand what that might be?”
Pell: “Well, there might have been difficulties with the school principal, there might have been difficulties of personalities, there might have been a difficulty of an inappropriate adult relationship. There could have simply been that the man was perpetually restless. These are all possibilities.”
McClellan: “Did someone tell you that those possibilities had materialised in Ridsdale’s case?”
Pell: “They certainly did not mention that the reason he was being shipped was because of paedophilia.”
McClellan: “Cardinal, would you answer my question, please?”
Pell: “Could you repeat it, please?”
McClellan: “Yes. Did someone tell you that the possibilities you referred to had materialised in Ridsdale’s case?”
Pell: “I can’t remember exactly what was said. But it would have been quite clear that there were difficulties of some sort.”
Updated
at 10.15pm GMT
10.06pm GMT
22:06
"It's hard to imagine a greater deception"
The head of the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, Justice Peter McClellan, has interjected to ask his own questions of Pell. As discussed in the post below, Pell was one of the consultors appointed to give advice to the Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.
McClellan points out that all of the consultors seemed to know that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children, except for him and one other consultor.
McClellan: “And you say that none of those people shared with you any knowledge they had about Ridsdale?”
Pell: “That is correct and these matters were not discussed at the consultors meetings and I think that is very close to the unanimous evidence of the consultors.
McClellan: “Cardinal, as I understand your evidence, the consequence is you say the bishop [Mulkearns] deceived you, is that right?”
Pell: “Unfortunately correct.”
McClellan: “It is surprising, isn’t it, that a bishop and a senior cleric who joined with you in a committee to advise in relation to appointments would deceive a member of that committee?
Pell: “It is surprising.”
McClellan: “It’s hard to imagine a greater deception, isn’t it?”
Pell: Well, it probably would be possible to imagine a greater deception, but it’s a gross deception.”
Updated
at 10.09pm GMT
9.57pm GMT
21:57
For part of the time he was a priest in Ballarat, Pell was one of the consultors to Bishop Ronald Mulkearns, who was head of the diocese. His was appointed to the role in 1977 and it included giving advice to Mulkearns on various diocese matters, including the appointments and movements of priests to parishes, and changing of people’s roles.
Pell was a consultor during a period of priests sexually and physically abusing children, and those priests being moved between parishes. Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is now turning her attention to Pell’s consultor role, and the kind of conversations that took place about the movement of priests. Pell has always maintained he was never told that some of the priests transferred between parishes were paedophiles and that they were being moved for this reason.
“Consultors have an obligation to share the knowledge they have,” Pell tells the commission.
Furness is pressing Pell on why Father Gerald Ridsdale had his role changed so frequently, and was also moved frequently between parishes. The commission has previously heard paedophile priests, rather than being reported to police, were simply moved to other parishes.
Furness: “So it’s the case, isn’t it, that if he [Gerald Ridsdale] went from being parish priest to administrator, that would be a sign that there was something wrong with his ministry? Doesn’t that follow?”
Pell: “He would not go from being parish priest to administrator in the same parish. If he was parish priest and was then regularly appointed or was appointed as administrator, it would be a sign that there was some sort of problem or difficulty, yes.”
Furness: “Well Cardinal, it’s the case, isn’t it, he went from parish priest to administrator and then back to parish priest again, there was clearly a period between each of those parish priests appointments where there was some problem with him? Isn’t that clear?
Pell: “No, it’s not entirely clear to us. It wasn’t entirely clear then.”
Updated
at 9.59pm GMT
9.43pm GMT
21:43
Looks like those gasps of shock came from the Sydney end, not from Rome.
Reaction to Card Pell's comment that Ridsdale's story "wasn't of much interest to me" was first angry reaction from gallery@australian
Room silent in Rome. Important to correct given spotlight on everyone here https://t.co/XTz3RRc8BE
Cardinal Pell taken aback when gasps of shock from Sydney room are heard in Rome room.
9.41pm GMT
21:41
Another telling exchange
Furness is trying to get Pell to be clear on who he believes was and was not responsible for protecting children in the care of the church at schools and other institutions. Furness says that surely all adults have a responsibility:
“So who isn’t responsible in the church to ensure the safety of children who are taken in by the church either as parishioners or as altar boys or in any other way operate within the church? Who isn’t responsible?”
Pell: “Well it’s very difficult to answer these questions where we swing from one extreme to the other. Everybody has some sort of general responsibility. Individuals and especially office holders have particular responsibility for their areas of concern.
Furness: “So if it was the case that a parish priest heard of events dangerous to children happening in a neighbouring parish or a parish distant from them, based on what you’ve said they’ve got no responsibility in relation to the children who are in danger? Is that right?”
Pell: “Well very obviously I said nothing of the sort. I said that a person from a neighbouring parish or a distant parish has less responsibility for the care of children in those distant parishes than he does in his own. I’m not suggesting for a minute, especially in a neighbouring parish, that a neighbouring parish priest would have no responsibility at all. I never suggested that.”
Updated
at 9.48pm GMT
9.37pm GMT
21:37
From reporter Ben Doherty who is in the hearing in Sydney;
“Clumsy from Pell on the stand – describing his knowledge of whether it was common knowledge that Ridsdale was abusing children – drew audible gasps from those in the room in Rome.”
Updated
at 9.47pm GMT
9.36pm GMT
21:36
Audible shock heard in the room as Pell says story of abuse "wasn't of much interest to me"
Quite an extraordinary exchange has occurred between counsel assisting, Gail Furness and Cardinal George Pell, prompting audible gasps in the room. It’s unclear if those gasps came from Hotel Quirinale in Rome, where survivors are watching Pell, or in Sydney, where the commission is sitting.
Furness: “Did you subsequently know, not that [paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale] he offended at Inglewood, leave that to one side, but that it was common knowledge of his interfering with children at Inglewood?
Pell: “I couldn’t say that I ever knew that everyone knew. I knew a number of people did. I didn’t know whether it was common knowledge or whether it wasn’t. It’s a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.”
Furness: “What wasn’t of much interest to you, Cardinal?”
Pell: “The suffering, of course, was real and I very much regret that but I had no reason to turn my mind to the extent of the evils that Ridsdale had perpetrated.”
Furness: “In order, Cardinal, to not have the offences and misconduct of the past repeated, doesn’t one need to understand the circumstances in which those offences were committed and the structure and personnel that permitted that to occur? Isn’t it the case, Cardinal, that every adult in the Church is responsible for ensuring the safety of children going forward? It’s not a question of structural responsibility, it’s a question of being an adult and being responsible, isn’t it, Cardinal?”
Pell: “Well, an individual can only do what it is possible to do and everybody has a responsibility to try to preserve the moral health of the community in ways that are real and practical.”
Updated
at 9.45pm GMT
9.31pm GMT
21:31
Furness is going much further today into paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children across parishes for decades. Ridsdale is now in prison. His victims were as young as four. Furness is saying his abusing was known to many.
Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile.
Furness: “I was asking you about knowledge you had that Ridsdale was interfering with children in Inglewood and you said not at that stage and then I asked you, at a later stage?”
Pell: “Yes.”
Furness: “When?”
Pell: “Well, I couldn’t say precisely but after he was tried and jailed.”
Furness: “So after 1993?”
Pell: “Yes.”
Furness: “And is it the case in 1993, or after that year, you understood that he had been committing offences for which he was now convicted and sentenced, is that what you understood in 1993 or thereafter?”
Pell: “I did.”
Furness: “Now that’s a different question from the one I asked you, Cardinal. It was whether you had knowledge that it was common knowledge at Inglewood at that time?”
Pell: “I did not know that it was common knowledge at Inglewood at that time because if I’d known that I would have known that there were offences. Possible offences.”
Updated
at 9.47pm GMT
9.23pm GMT
21:23
Indeed.
"According to today’s standards that would be clearly insufficient, it was then" #Pell on transfer of offending priests without counselling