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Democratic debate: Sanders and Clinton take the gloves off in Brooklyn – live Democratic debate: Sanders and Clinton take the gloves off in Brooklyn – live
(35 minutes later)
3.39am BST
03:39
Sanders says that Clinton is saying the country does not have the courage to stand up to big money.
“How is it that every other major country manages to guarantee health care?” he says. I live 50 miles from Canada. It’s not some kind of communist authoritarian country. They’re doing OK, he says.
Clinton says they have the same goal. “I am so much in favor of supporting president Obama’s signature achievement,” Obamacare, she says – instead of “starting over” as Sanders would.
3.39am BST
03:39
Lois Beckett
The daughter of the school principal murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, tweeted out a response to Bernie Sanders who, when asked if he owed her and other family members of victims an apology, said he didn’t think he did, writes Lois Beckett.
.@BernieSanders YOU DO OWE AN APOLOGY! Your round about answer was just not good enough!
She also criticized the language Sanders used in talking about her mother’s death.
Dear @BernieSanders - my mother was NOT cattle - she was NOT "slaughtered". Maybe be a bit more sensitive with you language. <3 #DawnsKid
Sanders defended his support of a federal shield law that makes it more difficult to sue gun manufacturers and dealers over criminal misuse of their guns.
He noted that some of the families had won a victory in court today in their lawsuit against gun companies who made and sold the gun used in the 2012 school shooting. The victory was a very small and technical one. A Connecticut judge ruled the lawsuit can continue, but the families “still have a very tough road ahead of them” one legal expert said. “They’re still a long way from trial.”
3.37am BST
03:37
They’re back! Sanders is challenged that his education and health care proposals would be too expensive and bust the budget.
He says the last 30 years have seen a massive transfer of wealth. “I am determined to transfer that money back to the working families of this country.”
Clinton: “I absolutely agree with the diagnosis.” We need to do more to get universal health coverage. We have to make college affordable. But... Sanders’ plan for health care and free college would cost the wrong people too much, she says.
Sanders can’t wait to reply.
3.32am BST
03:32
Mona Chalabi
Last year, European members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) contributed $234 billion, writes Mona Chalabi.
That same year, the US alone contributed $650 billion. Claims that the burden on the US alone are disproportionate clearly have some basis, even if you view contributions as a share of GDP or on a per capita basis.
3.32am BST
03:32
Here’s something to watch during the commercial: Video of Clinton trying to escape the question about her Goldman Sachs transcripts.
3.31am BST
03:31
Second commercial break. How did that section go? Did Clinton handle the Libya challenge well? Sanders had more room to maneuver on Israel than she did. Neither got much into the Syria question.
3.30am BST
03:30
Sanders is just needling Clinton on Israel, exposing her unwillingness to go one inch out onto the limb of anything that might be taken as criticism of Israel.
“There comes a time if we are going to pursue justice and peace that we are going to have to say that Netanyahu is not right all of the time,” Sanders says.
She replies in the most general of terms: “Nobody is saying that any individual leader is always right but it is a difficult position.”
3.26am BST
03:26
Clinton takes the question. She says she negotiated the 2012 ceasefire with Hamas and Israel, Egypt, the Palestinian leadership and Arab league.
Israel does not seek this kind of constant attack, she says. “After they had taken these assaults... I don’t know how you run a country when you are under constant threat. Terrorist attack, rockets... you have a right to defend yourself.”
That does not mean that we should not continue to do everything we can to work toward a two-state solution.
She says Yassir Arafat blew a chance at a Palestinian state in negotiations under president Clinton with Ehud Barak. She says there could have been a Palestinian state for 15 years.
Sanders challenges her to answer the “disproportionate” question. She says yes she’ll answer: Hamas dresses like civilians and Gaza is “a terrorist haven that is getting more and more rockets shipped in.”
Sanders said that Clinton’s speech to Aipac did not mention the needs of the Palestinian people. He says there will never peace without an evenhanded role by the United States.
Most substantive debate on Israel/Palestine of the election cycle so far.
3.21am BST
03:21
Sanders; 'treat the Palestinian people with respect and dignity'
On to Israel. Sanders has called the Israeli response in the 2014 war in Gaza “disproportionate.”
Does he stand by that?
He does.
“Of course Israel has a right not only to defend themselves but to live in peace and security,” he says, as someone who’s lived there.
“I do believe that. Israel... has every right to destroy terrorism. But in Gaza there were 10,000 wounded civilians and 1,500 killed. Was that a disproportionate attack? The answer is I believe it was. As somebody who is 100% pro-Israel. In the long run, if we are ever going to bring peace... we are going to have to treat the Palestinian people with respect and dignity.”
Updated
at 3.21am BST
3.19am BST
03:19
Clinton stands by her support for a no-fly zone in Syria and accurately says she supported arming the Syria opposition when Obama opposed it.
Sanders is asked about participation in Nato. He says that France provides health care and education and so does England. “I do believe that the countries of Europe should pick up more of a burden for their defense.”
“You gotta ask Trump. All I can tell you is with a huge deficit... yeah, I do think... European countries [who are doin pretty well}.. you know what, you take your own share of the defense burden.”
Clinton ages. Nato allies are required to pay more and they should, she says. But the bigger picture is the durability and importance of the alliance. It must be modernized, she says. In part to face terrorism. Yes make them pay more but that doesn’t mean we leave if they don’t.
If they don’t pay, “I will stay in Nato,” Clinton says, and look for solutions. Nato was in Afghanistan after 9/11, she says. That meant a lot. “Let’s not forget what’s really happening, with Russia being more aggressive... think of how much it would cost if Russia’s aggression were not deterred because Nato is not there on the front lines.”
3.16am BST
03:16
Lois Beckett
It’s become normal for the two Democratic candidates to battle over guns in each debate, writes Lois Beckett.
Sanders, who Clinton paints as more pro-gun, has repeatedly touted his low rating from the NRA. But the idea that a Democratic candidate might benefit from focusing on guns is a huge transformation in the American political landscape – especially for Clinton.
For more than a decade, most Democrats on Capitol Hill treated gun policy as the third rail of American politics. Nobody wanted to touch it
President Bill Clinton blamed backlash against the 1994 assault weapons ban for Democrats losing their majority in Congress in the midterm elections. (Whether that is accurate or not is still a matter of debate.)
Today, Obama, whose chief of staff once told his attorney general to “shut the f--- up” about guns, has used his bully pulpit to highlight the goals of the gun control advocacy groups.
And Clinton clearly sees attacks on the gun industry as a winning political strategy.
3.12am BST
03:12
On to national security and foreign affairs. Question for Clinton: Obama recently said not thinking through Libya was a major mistake of his presidency. Is that on you too?
“I think we did a great deal to help the Libyan people after Ghadafi’s demise,” she says, naming two elections and helping set up the government.
But, Clinton says, we did not provide for sufficient security afterwards.
“We can’t walk away from that. We need to be working with European and Arab partners.”
Sanders says that Clinton “led the effort” for regime change in Libya and “this is the same type of thinking” that led us into Iraq.
“We didn’t think thoroughly about what happens the day after... regime change often has unintended consequences.”
Clinton responds, trying to tie Sanders to Obama’s Libya policy: There was a vote in Senate on question of whether to approach UN security council on Libya question, and Sanders voted for it.
Sanders says Clinton made the charge before “and just repeating it doesn’t make it true.” Sanders says the vote in question was a unanimous consent “do you support Libya moving toward democracy?” Of course he did, but that’s not comparable, he says, to her role.
Clinton kind of hangs Libya policy on the president. “At the end of the day, those are the decisions that are made by the president.”
The Bern's inside reaction to the Libya answer .. pic.twitter.com/RR9SyiJtdg
Updated
at 3.13am BST
3.07am BST3.07am BST
03:0703:07
Sanders yells something about what you “don’t do” and “what you do do” and it draws some titters in the hall.Sanders yells something about what you “don’t do” and “what you do do” and it draws some titters in the hall.
don't say "do do" Berniedon't say "do do" Bernie
3.05am BST3.05am BST
03:0503:05
Mona ChalabiMona Chalabi
American attitudes to climate change contrast with global opinion, as polling data from Pew Research Center shows:American attitudes to climate change contrast with global opinion, as polling data from Pew Research Center shows:
% who say Earth warming due to human activity70 Latino56 Black44 Whitehttps://t.co/GcH5vPl6rE #DemDebate pic.twitter.com/8YOSGM8Yax% who say Earth warming due to human activity70 Latino56 Black44 Whitehttps://t.co/GcH5vPl6rE #DemDebate pic.twitter.com/8YOSGM8Yax
3.05am BST3.05am BST
03:0503:05
Former Maryland governor and presidential candidate Martin O’Malley joins the call for Clinton to release her Goldman speech transcripts:Former Maryland governor and presidential candidate Martin O’Malley joins the call for Clinton to release her Goldman speech transcripts:
Said this in 2012 about @MittRomney's tax returns, I'll say it today: @HillaryClinton should release the Wall Street transcripts #DemDebateSaid this in 2012 about @MittRomney's tax returns, I'll say it today: @HillaryClinton should release the Wall Street transcripts #DemDebate
3.04am BST3.04am BST
03:0403:04
“Here is a real difference,” Sanders says. He accuses Clinton of “incrementalism.” “Those little steps are not enough,” Sanders says. “Not right now, not on climate change.”“Here is a real difference,” Sanders says. He accuses Clinton of “incrementalism.” “Those little steps are not enough,” Sanders says. “Not right now, not on climate change.”
He asks her whether she’s in favor of a tax on carbon.He asks her whether she’s in favor of a tax on carbon.
Clinton takes a breath. “I have laid out a set of actions,” she says, and quickly ends up talking about the need for a new supreme court justice.Clinton takes a breath. “I have laid out a set of actions,” she says, and quickly ends up talking about the need for a new supreme court justice.
I don’t take a backseat to your legislation that you’ve introduced that you haven’t been able to get passed.I don’t take a backseat to your legislation that you’ve introduced that you haven’t been able to get passed.
She says her solution would get the country there faster “without tying us up into political knots.”She says her solution would get the country there faster “without tying us up into political knots.”
3.02am BST3.02am BST
03:0203:02
Mona ChalabiMona Chalabi
Speaking about “systemic racism” in the criminal justice system, Hillary Clinton has recognized the role that the 1994 crime bill might have played in worsening the issue, writes Mona Chalabi.Speaking about “systemic racism” in the criminal justice system, Hillary Clinton has recognized the role that the 1994 crime bill might have played in worsening the issue, writes Mona Chalabi.
The bill she mentioned is part of her husband, President Bill Clinton’s, political legacy.The bill she mentioned is part of her husband, President Bill Clinton’s, political legacy.
We fact-checked its effects last week and concluded that the black incarceration rate had been steadily climbing since 1980, as successive presidents and Congresses passed laws related to the “war on drugs”. But there is no doubt that the 1994 crime bill made a bad situation, worse. Today, for every 100 black women who are not in jail, there are only 83 black men.We fact-checked its effects last week and concluded that the black incarceration rate had been steadily climbing since 1980, as successive presidents and Congresses passed laws related to the “war on drugs”. But there is no doubt that the 1994 crime bill made a bad situation, worse. Today, for every 100 black women who are not in jail, there are only 83 black men.
3.02am BST
03:02
Clinton says her support for fracking globally was a way to get away from coal and to get countries off a dependency on Russian gas. She defends it as a lesser of two evils.
“I don’t think I’ve changed my view on what we need to do.” She says fracking represents a bridge fuel, natural gas, from coal to sustainable energy.
3.00am BST
03:00
Clinton: “Let’s talk about the global environmental crisis.” She refers to her work as secretary of state to bring China to the table on a greenhouse emissions deal. She praises the Paris deal on global emissions targets and then says she was disappointed Sanders attacked the deal.
Sanders returns the attack, saying Clinton “worked hard to expand fracking around the world” as secretary of state.
Sanders says he has the guts to take on the fossil fuel industry. He implies Clinton does not.
She chuckles. “I”m a little bewildered at how to respond,” she says. She says the Obama administration moved forward on energy in the face of “implacable opposition” from Republicans.
“I really believe the president has done an incredible job against great odds, and deserves to be supported. It’s easy to diagnose the problem, it’s harder to do something,” she says.
That’s applauded.
2.59am BST
02:59
Lois Beckett
Is Hillary right that Sanders was “clearly helped by the NRA” in his election to Congress?
In a word, yes, writes Lois Beckett.
In 1990, when Sanders was first elected, the socialist was “he enemy of the NRA’s enemy,” as The Washington Post’s David A Fahrenthold put it.
Compared to the Republican incumbent in the race, who had earned the NRA’s ire over his support for an assault weapon ban, “Bernie Sanders is a more honorable choice for Vermont sportsmen,” Wayne LaPierre wrote in a mailing to thousands of Vermont National Rifle Association members.
Read more about the NRA’s role in the 1990 election here.
2.57am BST
02:57
They’re back!
Next question is about energy and the environment. Sanders has said you are in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry.
Clinton says let’s talk about the extraordinary threats that climate change poses. “There has never been any doubt that when I was a senator... I tried to get rid of the subsidies for big oil. .. Everyone’s who looked at this independently has said that this is an incorrect, false charge.”
Sanders: “It is one thing to talk about workers... but as I understand it, 43 lobbyists for the fossil fuel industry gave the maximum amount of money to secretary Clinton’s campaign.” He says they thought she was a good bet.
He says climate change is “a global environmental crisis of unprecedented urgency.” He’s applauded. “We have an enemy out there,” he says.
2.53am BST
02:53
Commercial break. How was that first hour or so? Pretty punchy after all. Clinton seemed to be landing the most punches early, jumping right into an attack on Sanders for, she said, failing to describe the mechanics of breaking up big banks in a Daily News interview this month. They had some snippy back-and-forth about a campaign trail argument over being qualified for office. But then Sanders hit Clinton hard for her paid speeches to big banks – and she stumbled on the question of whether she would release transcripts of those pieces. Then Sanders caught Clinton out on a limb when she claimed always to have been a stalwart proponent of a $15/hr minimum wage.
2.48am BST
02:48
Sanders is off to the races on criminal justice reform, drug sentencing.
The candidates are agreeing on the need for criminal justice reform.
2.47am BST
02:47
Clinton: 'I want white people to recognize that there is systemic racism'
Follow up for Clinton: do you regret advocacy for crime bill?
“My husband has apologized,” Clinton says – and he’s the one who signed it. Then she issues a sort-of apology:
“I’m sorry for the consequences that were unintended and that it had a very unfortunate impact on people’s lives. .. I want to focus the attention of our country and to make the changes we need.
I want white people to recognize that there is systemic racism. It’s in employment, it’s in housing, but it’s in the criminal justice system also.
Sanders is asked why he called out Clinton this week for once having described criminals targeted by the 1994 crime bill as “super-predator” criminals.
Because it was a racist term and everybody knew it was a racist term.
2.46am BST
02:46
Mona Chalabi
It’s worth noting that gun violence deaths in New York are up 15% according to a report published last week by New York’s Division of Criminal Justice Services, writes Guardian US Data Editor Mona Chalabi.
Last year alone, 127 people were killed in the state as a result of gun violence.
Sanders has quoted his D- rating by the National Rifle Association (NRA) who rate politicians according to how sympathetic their voting record is on gun rights. Sanders is right – you can compare other candidates ratings here (Hillary Clinton has an even lower NRA rating: F).
2.45am BST
02:45
Lois Beckett
Wolf Blitzer fact-checked Hillary’s claim that Vermont sent more guns per capita to New York than any other state, noting that, overall, only 1.2% of crime guns recovered in New York come from Vermont, writes the Guardian’s Lois Beckett.
“Are you seriously blaming Vermont and implicitly Senator Sanders for New York’s gun violence?” he asked.
“Of course not,” Senator Clinton said, touting her commitment reducing the 33,000 American gun deaths each year.
“I have spent more time than I care to remember being with people who have lost their loved ones,” she said. Mothers of victims of gun violence and police shootings have appeared with Hillary at multiple campaign events.
2.44am BST
02:44
Clinton takes a question about the 1994 crime bill: net positive or a mistake?
Clinton: It has some positive aspects. Violence against women act. And it also did some things to provide more opportunities. There are some positives.
On the other side, there were some decisions... that now we must revisit. I think that sentences got much too long. “So we have a problem. And the very first speech I gave in this campaign” was about criminal justice reform.
Sanders voted for the crime bill, she says.