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George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live
Questioning of Pell concludes, with cardinal advised he will not be required again – live
(35 minutes later)
1.44am GMT
01:44
Thats it, Pell has finished his four nights of evidence. He walks out without looking at survivors, again.
1.41am GMT
01:41
The evidence concludes
Pell’s lawyer points out that it was Pell who handed paedophile priest Peter Searson a letter telling him to resign.
Duggan: “What was his response to you telling him that, or handing him a letter requesting his resignation?”
Pell: “... he wasn’t at all pleased.”
Duggan: “And your response was, ‘Retire and resign’.”
The questioning of Pell has now finished and Pell has been told he will not be required further.
Cd. Pell says when he tried to fire Searson "Rome found against me" but "I just ignored the Roman decision." #CARoyalComm
Melissa Davey with you here. Stay with us for a recap to the day’s events and reaction from survivors.
Updated
at 1.42am GMT
1.35am GMT
01:35
A long week for all involved.
If the royal commission into child abuse wraps up as planned in 40mins Cardinal Pell will have sat through 19 hours of questioning.
1.33am GMT
01:33
Pell’s lawyer, Duggan, is now challenging comments made by counsel assisting, Gail Furness, yesterday that it was “implausible” that Pell was not properly briefed by the Catholic Education Office about the abuse occurring at the hands of paedophile priest Peter Searson. Duggan is also addressing suggestions from commission chair, Peter McClellan, that Pell could have done more to address abuse allegations and respond to them while he was auxiliary bishop.
Pell tells Duggan: “I wasn’t asked to help. I’m not sure that my requesting would have helped or hindered a change of mind by the archbishop. He’s quite accurate in saying the auxiliary bishops are outside the executive chain. Could I just say one sincere word for Father [Thomas] Doyle? I think he was very competent, innocent director – a competent director of education. We now know he stated explicitly he wanted Searson removed. When the archbishop refused to do that, it put Father Doyle in an appallingly difficult situation. I just ask that that be noted.”
The commission previously heard that Doyle found it so stressful and upsetting that no one was responding to his complaints that Searson was abusing children that he resigned. He was unable to get a Catholic teaching job after that.
In November Doyle told the commission that when he was director of the Catholic Education Office for much of the time Searson was a parish priest, and he believed the complaints about Searson were serious. However, he did not go to police.
Searson died in 2009 having never faced charges. The commission heard the complaints against him spanned two decades, from 1977, and across the three parishes where he worked as a priest.
Updated
at 1.35am GMT
1.23am GMT
01:23
Pell’s lawyer is painting a picture of how very busy Pell was during the time paedophile priests were abusing children throughout parishes within the Ballarat diocese. Excerpts from Pell’s diary are being tendered as evidence.
Pell describes his day on 14 September, 1983: “I was a member of the council of the Ballarat college of advanced education so the diary indicates that I lectured for a couple of hours, travelled down to Melbourne for a 2:30 meeting and came back for the evening meeting of the Council of the Ballarat College of Advanced Education”.
Updated
at 1.28am GMT
1.17am GMT
1.17am GMT
01:17
01:17
Pell says in 1974 he never visited Ridsdale in Apollo Bay, nor in 1975 in Inglewood, nor in 76-77 in Edenhope, nor in early '80s in Mortlake
Pell says in 1974 he never visited Ridsdale in Apollo Bay, nor in 1975 in Inglewood, nor in 76-77 in Edenhope, nor in early '80s in Mortlake
Not sure where this is going, but I presume it's going somewhere
Not sure where this is going, but I presume it's going somewhere
1.15am GMT
1.15am GMT
01:15
01:15
Documents are being tendered by Pell’s lawyer, Duggan, showing that he was on study leave from May to August 1979. Pell tells the commission he was “very busy” during part of the period when child abusers were operating within the diocese of Ballarat.
Documents are being tendered by Pell’s lawyer, Duggan, showing that he was on study leave from May to August 1979. Pell tells the commission he was “very busy” during part of the period when child abusers were operating within the diocese of Ballarat.
Duggan: “It appears in this letter that a request has been made to you to become editor of a publication called ‘Light’. Is that right?”
Duggan: “It appears in this letter that a request has been made to you to become editor of a publication called ‘Light’. Is that right?”
Pell: “That is correct.”
Pell: “That is correct.”
Duggan: “You appear to express some reluctance to take on that role. Why was that?”
Duggan: “You appear to express some reluctance to take on that role. Why was that?”
Pell: “Because, as I said, I got no particular enthusiasm for extra work and do not feel underemployed. In fact, I was already very, very busy.”
Pell: “Because, as I said, I got no particular enthusiasm for extra work and do not feel underemployed. In fact, I was already very, very busy.”
Updated
Updated
at 1.17am GMT
at 1.17am GMT
1.10am GMT
1.10am GMT
01:10
01:10
Elle Hunt
Elle Hunt
Kristina Keneally has defended her credentials to comment on Pell’s evidence on Twitter.
Kristina Keneally has defended her credentials to comment on Pell’s evidence on Twitter.
Yep, as a former Catholic school teacher & youth worker with a degree in Catholic theology, what would I know? https://t.co/R48k9S0IP0
Yep, as a former Catholic school teacher & youth worker with a degree in Catholic theology, what would I know? https://t.co/R48k9S0IP0
1.08am GMT
1.08am GMT
01:08
01:08
Cardinal Pell's lawyer Sam Duggan is now asking him questions
Cardinal Pell's lawyer Sam Duggan is now asking him questions
Pell’s lawyer, Sam Duggan, asks Pell: “In late 1975 or any time after whilst you were in Ballarat, did the police ever tell you that they thought Gerald Ridsdale had sexually assaulted a child but they weren’t going to charge him?”
Pell’s lawyer, Sam Duggan, asks Pell: “In late 1975 or any time after whilst you were in Ballarat, did the police ever tell you that they thought Gerald Ridsdale had sexually assaulted a child but they weren’t going to charge him?”
Pell: “No, never.”
Pell: “No, never.”
Duggan: “Did the police ever warn you that Gerald Ridsdale might be a risk of abusing a child?”
Duggan: “Did the police ever warn you that Gerald Ridsdale might be a risk of abusing a child?”
Pell: “No.”
Pell: “No.”
1.05am GMT
1.05am GMT
01:05
01:05
The commission has resumed with Pell apologising to abuse survivor Julie Stewart.
The commission has resumed with Pell apologising to abuse survivor Julie Stewart.
If I inadvertently added to the distress of Ms Stewart, I absolutely apologise.
If I inadvertently added to the distress of Ms Stewart, I absolutely apologise.
Updated
Updated
at 1.13am GMT
at 1.13am GMT
12.59am GMT
12.59am GMT
00:59
00:59
It has been an unbelievably long few days for the survivors, particularly those who are in Rome. The evidence has been going past 3am Rome time each day.
It has been an unbelievably long few days for the survivors, particularly those who are in Rome. The evidence has been going past 3am Rome time each day.
Mood here has nose-dived. Fatigue. #Pell
Mood here has nose-dived. Fatigue. #Pell
It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling.
It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling.
12.56am GMT
12.56am GMT
00:56
00:56
A recap of the last couple of hours
A recap of the last couple of hours
If you find any of the evidence or coverage of the commission distressing, you can call 1800 Respect on 1800 737 732, Adults Surviving Child Abuse on 1300 657 380 or Lifeline on 13 11 14. A full list of support services and websites can be found here.
If you find any of the evidence or coverage of the commission distressing, you can call 1800 Respect on 1800 737 732, Adults Surviving Child Abuse on 1300 657 380 or Lifeline on 13 11 14. A full list of support services and websites can be found here.
Updated
Updated
at 1.02am GMT
at 1.02am GMT
12.37am GMT
12.37am GMT
00:37
00:37
The commission is taking a short adjournment. Lawyers representing child sexual abuse survivors have spent the morning grilling Pell about what he knew of their stories as well as those who abused them.
The commission is taking a short adjournment. Lawyers representing child sexual abuse survivors have spent the morning grilling Pell about what he knew of their stories as well as those who abused them.
It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling.
It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling.
It's a shame, but the victims' lawyers are only being given around 20 minutes each to ask what are often a lifetime's worth of questions
It's a shame, but the victims' lawyers are only being given around 20 minutes each to ask what are often a lifetime's worth of questions
Updated
Updated
at 12.38am GMT
at 12.38am GMT
12.23am GMT
00:23
Pell says that he regrets what child sexual abuse within the church does to the faith of the survivors, their families and society
Julie Stewart, now 40, previously gave evidence before the commission that she was sexually abused by the parish priest at the Holy Family church in Doveton, Victoria, Peter Searson, from when she was in year three.
Stewart told the commission Searson would force her to sit on his lap during confession, rather than on the other side of the confessional barrier, and would ask her to kiss him and tell him that she loved him. When she went to confession in year four with the rest of her school class, Searson placed her on his lap “so I could feel his erection on my backside”, Stewart told the commission in November.
Her lawyer, Cassie Serpell, says to Pell: “Julie Stewart’s never stepped inside a confessional since that time. That wouldn’t surprise you, would it?”
Pell: “No, I deeply regret that and of course one of the other things I regret as a priest is the damage that these crimes do to the faith of the survivors, of the victims and their friends and family and generally throughout the society. I lament that.”
Updated
at 12.54am GMT
12.16am GMT
00:16
A barrister for three abuse victims including Julie Stewart, Cassie Serpell, tells Pell “victims of child sexual abuse by clergy in the Catholic church have suffered harm, including long-term psychological harm”.
Pell replies: “Not all of them did but many did. I have read many of their stories. They’re harrowing stories and I feel deeply for them. Many of them are lifelong sufferers.”
Updated
at 12.26am GMT
12.07am GMT
00:07
Pell says investigating Searson was not his responsibility
O’Dwyer: “Cardinal, can I put this to you: At this time, that is by August or later, whenever the meeting was, at this time in 1991, you were in the loop as far as knowledge of Father Searson being a risk to children in terms of abusing them. You were in the loop.”
Pell: “Yes. And the whole point at issue of course is the level of that risk and just what could be done within the church and state law to deal with that.”
O’Dwyer: “At a minimum, what I suggest to you is that knowledge would have required you to firstly investigate those matters that are outlined, investigate them.”
Pell: “No, that’s not the case because the responsibility is with the normal executive agents. If they’d asked my opinion I would have given it.”
Justice McClellan interjects here: “Now do you not think, irrespective of who might have had the formal authority, that it fell upon you to do everything you could to ensure that these problems were investigated by someone and, if found to be true, proper action was taken?”
Pell: “Yes. I believe that’s the case. I believe that there was an investigation by the Catholic Education Office, there was an investigation by Minter Ellison and I was satisfied that the matter was in hand.”
Pell denies responsibility of Father Searson, whom he admits was a risk to children. Passes buck to education office.
#Pell on Searson: “I’m not sure I recommended any particular course of action… I did as I was asked and was happy enough... to do just that”
Updated
at 12.28am GMT
11.51pm GMT
23:51
Paul O’Dwyer SC, representing two child sexual abuse victims, is asking Pell about the paedophile priest Peter Searson. Complaints had been made about Searson from his time as a parish priest at Our Lady of Mount Carmel parish in Sunbury in 1977, to the decade when he was a parish priest at Holy Family parish in Doveton, the commission has previously heard.
O’Dwyer: “We now know clearly, from reading all the documents, that there had been a longstanding concern at that school that Father Searson was a risk to those children, at risk of sexual abusing those children. We know that, don’t we?”
Pell: “We now know that. At that stage, I knew primarily what the staff came to tell me and what they did tell me.”
O’Dwyer: “You see, when the staff presented their grievances, I suggest to you that it was obvious that they were concerned about those three matters that I’ve just pointed to you in relation to the children.”
Staff told Pell Searson had shown children a dead body in a coffin, had tortured animals in front of them, and was using the children’s toilets, the commission heard. Pell said he did not think those grievances warranted removing Searson or going to police.
Pell: “They were concerned about the whole list of grievances they presented to me, all categories.”
O’Dwyer: “Of course but in explaining their grievances, I suggest to you that given the history of this school it beggars belief that they would not have told you of their concerns they had about Father Searson and the safety of children.”
Pell: “They were expressed to some degree but that has to be set in the context where they were not asking for him to be removed.”
The allegations of Searson’s abusing meant he had to “unpack what they meant in actual fact because, as always with allegations, they have to be tested”, Pell says.
“I remember very explicitly that they said they were not asking for his removal and, obviously, that is incompatible with their saying to me that he was a serious risk for paedophilia. Or was engaged in that activity.”
Pell says Searson's defence for loitering around toilets was to ensure there was no graffiti @australian @SkyNewsAust @abcnews @Colvinius
Updated
at 12.28am GMT
11.38pm GMT
23:38
Shine Lawyers national legal partner, Lisa Flynn, has provided this analysis:
Following this morning’s revelations and Cardinal Pell’s testimony thus far, I believe that there is now little doubt he was derelict in his duty. If he did know of abuse within the midst of the Church and failed to take heed and act then both himself and the Church’s conduct is tantamount to negligence whereby the victims must be compensated for their suffering.
Some of Pell’s testimony also lends itself to questioning whether the Church has deliberately concealed certain knowledge that it possessed but failed to divulge at the time of past criminal and civil proceedings against the Christian Brothers and the Church. If that is so, then this could be considered to be conduct akin to fraudulent concealment.
For far too long now, the church has shirked it’s responsibility by hiding behind defences such as the statute of limitations. Now, with the limitation impediment removed in the state of Victoria and on the basis of Pell and other clergy members being aware of abuse at the time of its occurrence, the way is paved for fair and proper reparation to be made to the victims.
Shine represents survivors of child sexual abuse.
Updated
at 11.38pm GMT
11.36pm GMT
23:36
Victim could be alive today had he not been abused, commission hears
Pell agrees that at least one child sexual abuse victim may still be alive had he not been sexually abused and a proper investigation into his abuse carried out. But he says Bishop Mulkearns, not he, should have acted.
Lawyer: “Helen Watson’s son, Peter, who died in 1999, could have still been alive if a proper investigation had have been done. That’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal? Peter Watson could have been alive?”
Pell: “Yes, a proper investigation would have helped impede that and of course you need to have at least prima facie evidence to call an inquiry.
Lawyer: “And my client, BPD, who lives with the guilt and shame of Peter Watson’s death, given the knowledge he had of [pedophile] Paul David Ryan, and the fact he’d reported to the bishop, he does not bear the blame, the victims don’t bear the blame for this failure to report, the responsibility lay with the archbishops and the bishops, didn’t it, Cardinal?”
Pell: “The responsibility lay with the person who did not act when he should have and that would certainly seem to have been Bishop [Ronald] Mulkearns for sure.”
Updated
at 11.48pm GMT
11.30pm GMT
23:30
The lawyers are pressed for time, with the commission due to finish at 1pm. Many have had their requested time for questioning cut back, and are being kept to a strict schedule.
The lawyers are rushing to get everything in today, which means #Pell is facing machine-gun questioning #royalcommission
11.26pm GMT
23:26
Sky News’ Simon Love is back at the Ballarat town hall for the final day of Pell’s evidence. He was joined by a small group of survivors for the early start.
Small group of survivors inside Ballarat Town Hall for the early start on final day of #Pell evidence @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/D1kf7G4f9y
As Love has reported over the past four days, it was another lively crowd.
I'm hearing people in Ballarat Town Hall muttering "liar" as #pell carefully answer questions @SkyNewsAust @KKeneally
Fair bit of laughter in Ballarat Town Hall as Jim Shaw suggests #Pell is lying to retest reputation. Mood building here. @SkyNewsAust
Sarah Farnsworth of the ABC is also in Ballarat and tweeted about this emotional scene at the town hall earlier this morning.
Ballarat town hall bursts into applause as lawyer angrily asks #Pell "Why didn't you take it to police? Why didn't you tell someone?"
Updated
at 12.12am GMT
11.18pm GMT
23:18
Shaw: “I suggest very directly you are lying about this to protect your own reputation. What do you say about that?”
Pell: “I’d say that is completely untrue and unjustified by any evidence. It is a baseless allegation.”
Shaw: “Can I suggest ... the church cared more about itself as an institution than it did about little children and adolescents entrusted to its care, that’s right, isn’t it?”
Pell: “The church too often did not care adequately for the survivors and children.”
Updated
at 11.21pm GMT
11.15pm GMT
23:15
A lawyer representing victims, Jim Shaw, puts it to Pell: “To paraphrase the old saying, your memory works in mysterious ways, Cardinal?”
Pell: “No more mysterious than many other people and in fact my memory of events 30 or 40 years ago might be marginally better than the memories of some.”
Shaw: “I suggest it’s implausible that the only thing you would remember nothing of these meetings except for one thing and a thing that didn’t happen. That is, the fact that paedophilia was not mentioned? That is implausible, Cardinal?”
Pell: “Well,the way you put it, it certainly is. I never suggested I remembered nothing of the meetings. Paedophilia is abhorrent and if it was mentioned, I would have remembered it.”
The meeting being referred to is a meeting of consultors in 1982 where Pell was present. At the meeting it was decided to move notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale for a sixth time between parishes. While the majority of people at that meeting knew Ridsdale was abusing children, Pell maintains he did not know and he also did not know the true reason for Ridsdale being moved. On Wednesday counsel assisting, Gail Furness, told Pell it was implausible that the bishop and his other consultors knew while Pell did not.
