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| George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live | George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.17am GMT | |
| 01:17 | |
| Pell says in 1974 he never visited Ridsdale in Apollo Bay, nor in 1975 in Inglewood, nor in 76-77 in Edenhope, nor in early '80s in Mortlake | |
| Not sure where this is going, but I presume it's going somewhere | |
| 1.15am GMT | |
| 01:15 | |
| Documents are being tendered by Pell’s lawyer, Duggan, showing that he was on study leave from May to August 1979. Pell tells the commission he was “very busy” during part of the period when child abusers were operating within the diocese of Ballarat. | |
| Duggan: “It appears in this letter that a request has been made to you to become editor of a publication called ‘Light’. Is that right?” | |
| Pell: “That is correct.” | |
| Duggan: “You appear to express some reluctance to take on that role. Why was that?” | |
| Pell: “Because, as I said, I got no particular enthusiasm for extra work and do not feel underemployed. In fact, I was already very, very busy.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.17am GMT | |
| 1.10am GMT | |
| 01:10 | |
| Elle Hunt | |
| Kristina Keneally has defended her credentials to comment on Pell’s evidence on Twitter. | |
| Yep, as a former Catholic school teacher & youth worker with a degree in Catholic theology, what would I know? https://t.co/R48k9S0IP0 | |
| 1.08am GMT | |
| 01:08 | |
| Cardinal Pell's lawyer Sam Duggan is now asking him questions | |
| Pell’s lawyer, Sam Duggan, asks Pell: “In late 1975 or any time after whilst you were in Ballarat, did the police ever tell you that they thought Gerald Ridsdale had sexually assaulted a child but they weren’t going to charge him?” | |
| Pell: “No, never.” | |
| Duggan: “Did the police ever warn you that Gerald Ridsdale might be a risk of abusing a child?” | |
| Pell: “No.” | |
| 1.05am GMT | |
| 01:05 | |
| The commission has resumed with Pell apologising to abuse survivor Julie Stewart. | |
| If I inadvertently added to the distress of Ms Stewart, I absolutely apologise. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.13am GMT | |
| 12.59am GMT | |
| 00:59 | |
| It has been an unbelievably long few days for the survivors, particularly those who are in Rome. The evidence has been going past 3am Rome time each day. | |
| Mood here has nose-dived. Fatigue. #Pell | |
| It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling. | |
| 12.56am GMT | |
| 00:56 | |
| A recap of the last couple of hours | |
| If you find any of the evidence or coverage of the commission distressing, you can call 1800 Respect on 1800 737 732, Adults Surviving Child Abuse on 1300 657 380 or Lifeline on 13 11 14. A full list of support services and websites can be found here. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.02am GMT | |
| 12.37am GMT | 12.37am GMT |
| 00:37 | 00:37 |
| The commission is taking a short adjournment. Lawyers representing child sexual abuse survivors have spent the morning grilling Pell about what he knew of their stories as well as those who abused them. | The commission is taking a short adjournment. Lawyers representing child sexual abuse survivors have spent the morning grilling Pell about what he knew of their stories as well as those who abused them. |
| It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling. | It's 1.35am in Rome. Cardinal #Pell has agreed to give evidence until 3am. Fourth consecutive day to finish at 2am or later. Gruelling. |
| It's a shame, but the victims' lawyers are only being given around 20 minutes each to ask what are often a lifetime's worth of questions | It's a shame, but the victims' lawyers are only being given around 20 minutes each to ask what are often a lifetime's worth of questions |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.38am GMT | at 12.38am GMT |
| 12.23am GMT | 12.23am GMT |
| 00:23 | 00:23 |
| Pell says that he regrets what child sexual abuse within the church does to the faith of the survivors, their families and society | |
| Julie Stewart, now 40, previously gave evidence before the commission that she was sexually abused by the parish priest at the Holy Family church in Doveton, Victoria, Peter Searson, from when she was in year three. | Julie Stewart, now 40, previously gave evidence before the commission that she was sexually abused by the parish priest at the Holy Family church in Doveton, Victoria, Peter Searson, from when she was in year three. |
| Stewart told the commission Searson would force her to sit on his lap during confession, rather than on the other side of the confessional barrier, and would ask her to kiss him and tell him that she loved him. When she went to confession in year four with the rest of her school class, Searson placed her on his lap “so I could feel his erection on my backside”, Stewart told the commission in November. | Stewart told the commission Searson would force her to sit on his lap during confession, rather than on the other side of the confessional barrier, and would ask her to kiss him and tell him that she loved him. When she went to confession in year four with the rest of her school class, Searson placed her on his lap “so I could feel his erection on my backside”, Stewart told the commission in November. |
| Her lawyer, Cassie Serpell, says to Pell: “Julie Stewart’s never stepped inside a confessional since that time. That wouldn’t surprise you, would it?” | |
| Pell: “No, I deeply regret that and of course one of the other things I regret as a priest is the damage that these crimes do to the faith of the survivors, of the victims and their friends and family and generally throughout the society. I lament that.” | Pell: “No, I deeply regret that and of course one of the other things I regret as a priest is the damage that these crimes do to the faith of the survivors, of the victims and their friends and family and generally throughout the society. I lament that.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.54am GMT | |
| 12.16am GMT | 12.16am GMT |
| 00:16 | 00:16 |
| A barrister for three abuse victims including Julie Stewart, Cassie Serpell, tells Pell “victims of child sexual abuse by clergy in the Catholic church have suffered harm, including long-term psychological harm”. | A barrister for three abuse victims including Julie Stewart, Cassie Serpell, tells Pell “victims of child sexual abuse by clergy in the Catholic church have suffered harm, including long-term psychological harm”. |
| Pell replies: “Not all of them did but many did. I have read many of their stories. They’re harrowing stories and I feel deeply for them. Many of them are lifelong sufferers.” | Pell replies: “Not all of them did but many did. I have read many of their stories. They’re harrowing stories and I feel deeply for them. Many of them are lifelong sufferers.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.26am GMT | at 12.26am GMT |
| 12.07am GMT | 12.07am GMT |
| 00:07 | 00:07 |
| Pell says investigating Searson was not his responsibility | Pell says investigating Searson was not his responsibility |
| O’Dwyer: “Cardinal, can I put this to you: At this time, that is by August or later, whenever the meeting was, at this time in 1991, you were in the loop as far as knowledge of Father Searson being a risk to children in terms of abusing them. You were in the loop.” | O’Dwyer: “Cardinal, can I put this to you: At this time, that is by August or later, whenever the meeting was, at this time in 1991, you were in the loop as far as knowledge of Father Searson being a risk to children in terms of abusing them. You were in the loop.” |
| Pell: “Yes. And the whole point at issue of course is the level of that risk and just what could be done within the church and state law to deal with that.” | Pell: “Yes. And the whole point at issue of course is the level of that risk and just what could be done within the church and state law to deal with that.” |
| O’Dwyer: “At a minimum, what I suggest to you is that knowledge would have required you to firstly investigate those matters that are outlined, investigate them.” | O’Dwyer: “At a minimum, what I suggest to you is that knowledge would have required you to firstly investigate those matters that are outlined, investigate them.” |
| Pell: “No, that’s not the case because the responsibility is with the normal executive agents. If they’d asked my opinion I would have given it.” | Pell: “No, that’s not the case because the responsibility is with the normal executive agents. If they’d asked my opinion I would have given it.” |
| Justice McClellan interjects here: “Now do you not think, irrespective of who might have had the formal authority, that it fell upon you to do everything you could to ensure that these problems were investigated by someone and, if found to be true, proper action was taken?” | Justice McClellan interjects here: “Now do you not think, irrespective of who might have had the formal authority, that it fell upon you to do everything you could to ensure that these problems were investigated by someone and, if found to be true, proper action was taken?” |
| Pell: “Yes. I believe that’s the case. I believe that there was an investigation by the Catholic Education Office, there was an investigation by Minter Ellison and I was satisfied that the matter was in hand.” | Pell: “Yes. I believe that’s the case. I believe that there was an investigation by the Catholic Education Office, there was an investigation by Minter Ellison and I was satisfied that the matter was in hand.” |
| Pell denies responsibility of Father Searson, whom he admits was a risk to children. Passes buck to education office. | Pell denies responsibility of Father Searson, whom he admits was a risk to children. Passes buck to education office. |
| #Pell on Searson: “I’m not sure I recommended any particular course of action… I did as I was asked and was happy enough... to do just that” | #Pell on Searson: “I’m not sure I recommended any particular course of action… I did as I was asked and was happy enough... to do just that” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.28am GMT | at 12.28am GMT |
| 11.51pm GMT | 11.51pm GMT |
| 23:51 | 23:51 |
| Paul O’Dwyer SC, representing two child sexual abuse victims, is asking Pell about the paedophile priest Peter Searson. Complaints had been made about Searson from his time as a parish priest at Our Lady of Mount Carmel parish in Sunbury in 1977, to the decade when he was a parish priest at Holy Family parish in Doveton, the commission has previously heard. | Paul O’Dwyer SC, representing two child sexual abuse victims, is asking Pell about the paedophile priest Peter Searson. Complaints had been made about Searson from his time as a parish priest at Our Lady of Mount Carmel parish in Sunbury in 1977, to the decade when he was a parish priest at Holy Family parish in Doveton, the commission has previously heard. |
| O’Dwyer: “We now know clearly, from reading all the documents, that there had been a longstanding concern at that school that Father Searson was a risk to those children, at risk of sexual abusing those children. We know that, don’t we?” | O’Dwyer: “We now know clearly, from reading all the documents, that there had been a longstanding concern at that school that Father Searson was a risk to those children, at risk of sexual abusing those children. We know that, don’t we?” |
| Pell: “We now know that. At that stage, I knew primarily what the staff came to tell me and what they did tell me.” | Pell: “We now know that. At that stage, I knew primarily what the staff came to tell me and what they did tell me.” |
| O’Dwyer: “You see, when the staff presented their grievances, I suggest to you that it was obvious that they were concerned about those three matters that I’ve just pointed to you in relation to the children.” | O’Dwyer: “You see, when the staff presented their grievances, I suggest to you that it was obvious that they were concerned about those three matters that I’ve just pointed to you in relation to the children.” |
| Staff told Pell Searson had shown children a dead body in a coffin, had tortured animals in front of them, and was using the children’s toilets, the commission heard. Pell said he did not think those grievances warranted removing Searson or going to police. | Staff told Pell Searson had shown children a dead body in a coffin, had tortured animals in front of them, and was using the children’s toilets, the commission heard. Pell said he did not think those grievances warranted removing Searson or going to police. |
| Pell: “They were concerned about the whole list of grievances they presented to me, all categories.” | Pell: “They were concerned about the whole list of grievances they presented to me, all categories.” |
| O’Dwyer: “Of course but in explaining their grievances, I suggest to you that given the history of this school it beggars belief that they would not have told you of their concerns they had about Father Searson and the safety of children.” | O’Dwyer: “Of course but in explaining their grievances, I suggest to you that given the history of this school it beggars belief that they would not have told you of their concerns they had about Father Searson and the safety of children.” |
| Pell: “They were expressed to some degree but that has to be set in the context where they were not asking for him to be removed.” | Pell: “They were expressed to some degree but that has to be set in the context where they were not asking for him to be removed.” |
| The allegations of Searson’s abusing meant he had to “unpack what they meant in actual fact because, as always with allegations, they have to be tested”, Pell says. | The allegations of Searson’s abusing meant he had to “unpack what they meant in actual fact because, as always with allegations, they have to be tested”, Pell says. |
| “I remember very explicitly that they said they were not asking for his removal and, obviously, that is incompatible with their saying to me that he was a serious risk for paedophilia. Or was engaged in that activity.” | “I remember very explicitly that they said they were not asking for his removal and, obviously, that is incompatible with their saying to me that he was a serious risk for paedophilia. Or was engaged in that activity.” |
| Pell says Searson's defence for loitering around toilets was to ensure there was no graffiti @australian @SkyNewsAust @abcnews @Colvinius | Pell says Searson's defence for loitering around toilets was to ensure there was no graffiti @australian @SkyNewsAust @abcnews @Colvinius |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.28am GMT | at 12.28am GMT |
| 11.38pm GMT | 11.38pm GMT |
| 23:38 | 23:38 |
| Shine Lawyers national legal partner, Lisa Flynn, has provided this analysis: | Shine Lawyers national legal partner, Lisa Flynn, has provided this analysis: |
| Following this morning’s revelations and Cardinal Pell’s testimony thus far, I believe that there is now little doubt he was derelict in his duty. If he did know of abuse within the midst of the Church and failed to take heed and act then both himself and the Church’s conduct is tantamount to negligence whereby the victims must be compensated for their suffering. | Following this morning’s revelations and Cardinal Pell’s testimony thus far, I believe that there is now little doubt he was derelict in his duty. If he did know of abuse within the midst of the Church and failed to take heed and act then both himself and the Church’s conduct is tantamount to negligence whereby the victims must be compensated for their suffering. |
| Some of Pell’s testimony also lends itself to questioning whether the Church has deliberately concealed certain knowledge that it possessed but failed to divulge at the time of past criminal and civil proceedings against the Christian Brothers and the Church. If that is so, then this could be considered to be conduct akin to fraudulent concealment. | Some of Pell’s testimony also lends itself to questioning whether the Church has deliberately concealed certain knowledge that it possessed but failed to divulge at the time of past criminal and civil proceedings against the Christian Brothers and the Church. If that is so, then this could be considered to be conduct akin to fraudulent concealment. |
| For far too long now, the church has shirked it’s responsibility by hiding behind defences such as the statute of limitations. Now, with the limitation impediment removed in the state of Victoria and on the basis of Pell and other clergy members being aware of abuse at the time of its occurrence, the way is paved for fair and proper reparation to be made to the victims. | For far too long now, the church has shirked it’s responsibility by hiding behind defences such as the statute of limitations. Now, with the limitation impediment removed in the state of Victoria and on the basis of Pell and other clergy members being aware of abuse at the time of its occurrence, the way is paved for fair and proper reparation to be made to the victims. |
| Shine represents survivors of child sexual abuse. | Shine represents survivors of child sexual abuse. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.38pm GMT | at 11.38pm GMT |
| 11.36pm GMT | 11.36pm GMT |
| 23:36 | 23:36 |
| Victim could be alive today had he not been abused, commission hears | Victim could be alive today had he not been abused, commission hears |
| Pell agrees that at least one child sexual abuse victim may still be alive had he not been sexually abused and a proper investigation into his abuse carried out. But he says Bishop Mulkearns, not he, should have acted. | Pell agrees that at least one child sexual abuse victim may still be alive had he not been sexually abused and a proper investigation into his abuse carried out. But he says Bishop Mulkearns, not he, should have acted. |
| Lawyer: “Helen Watson’s son, Peter, who died in 1999, could have still been alive if a proper investigation had have been done. That’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal? Peter Watson could have been alive?” | Lawyer: “Helen Watson’s son, Peter, who died in 1999, could have still been alive if a proper investigation had have been done. That’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal? Peter Watson could have been alive?” |
| Pell: “Yes, a proper investigation would have helped impede that and of course you need to have at least prima facie evidence to call an inquiry. | Pell: “Yes, a proper investigation would have helped impede that and of course you need to have at least prima facie evidence to call an inquiry. |
| Lawyer: “And my client, BPD, who lives with the guilt and shame of Peter Watson’s death, given the knowledge he had of [pedophile] Paul David Ryan, and the fact he’d reported to the bishop, he does not bear the blame, the victims don’t bear the blame for this failure to report, the responsibility lay with the archbishops and the bishops, didn’t it, Cardinal?” | Lawyer: “And my client, BPD, who lives with the guilt and shame of Peter Watson’s death, given the knowledge he had of [pedophile] Paul David Ryan, and the fact he’d reported to the bishop, he does not bear the blame, the victims don’t bear the blame for this failure to report, the responsibility lay with the archbishops and the bishops, didn’t it, Cardinal?” |
| Pell: “The responsibility lay with the person who did not act when he should have and that would certainly seem to have been Bishop [Ronald] Mulkearns for sure.” | Pell: “The responsibility lay with the person who did not act when he should have and that would certainly seem to have been Bishop [Ronald] Mulkearns for sure.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.48pm GMT | at 11.48pm GMT |
| 11.30pm GMT | 11.30pm GMT |
| 23:30 | 23:30 |
| The lawyers are pressed for time, with the commission due to finish at 1pm. Many have had their requested time for questioning cut back, and are being kept to a strict schedule. | The lawyers are pressed for time, with the commission due to finish at 1pm. Many have had their requested time for questioning cut back, and are being kept to a strict schedule. |
| The lawyers are rushing to get everything in today, which means #Pell is facing machine-gun questioning #royalcommission | The lawyers are rushing to get everything in today, which means #Pell is facing machine-gun questioning #royalcommission |
| 11.26pm GMT | 11.26pm GMT |
| 23:26 | 23:26 |
| Sky News’ Simon Love is back at the Ballarat town hall for the final day of Pell’s evidence. He was joined by a small group of survivors for the early start. | Sky News’ Simon Love is back at the Ballarat town hall for the final day of Pell’s evidence. He was joined by a small group of survivors for the early start. |
| Small group of survivors inside Ballarat Town Hall for the early start on final day of #Pell evidence @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/D1kf7G4f9y | Small group of survivors inside Ballarat Town Hall for the early start on final day of #Pell evidence @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/D1kf7G4f9y |
| As Love has reported over the past four days, it was another lively crowd. | As Love has reported over the past four days, it was another lively crowd. |
| I'm hearing people in Ballarat Town Hall muttering "liar" as #pell carefully answer questions @SkyNewsAust @KKeneally | I'm hearing people in Ballarat Town Hall muttering "liar" as #pell carefully answer questions @SkyNewsAust @KKeneally |
| Fair bit of laughter in Ballarat Town Hall as Jim Shaw suggests #Pell is lying to retest reputation. Mood building here. @SkyNewsAust | Fair bit of laughter in Ballarat Town Hall as Jim Shaw suggests #Pell is lying to retest reputation. Mood building here. @SkyNewsAust |
| Sarah Farnsworth of the ABC is also in Ballarat and tweeted about this emotional scene at the town hall earlier this morning. | Sarah Farnsworth of the ABC is also in Ballarat and tweeted about this emotional scene at the town hall earlier this morning. |
| Ballarat town hall bursts into applause as lawyer angrily asks #Pell "Why didn't you take it to police? Why didn't you tell someone?" | Ballarat town hall bursts into applause as lawyer angrily asks #Pell "Why didn't you take it to police? Why didn't you tell someone?" |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.12am GMT | at 12.12am GMT |
| 11.18pm GMT | 11.18pm GMT |
| 23:18 | 23:18 |
| Shaw: “I suggest very directly you are lying about this to protect your own reputation. What do you say about that?” | Shaw: “I suggest very directly you are lying about this to protect your own reputation. What do you say about that?” |
| Pell: “I’d say that is completely untrue and unjustified by any evidence. It is a baseless allegation.” | Pell: “I’d say that is completely untrue and unjustified by any evidence. It is a baseless allegation.” |
| Shaw: “Can I suggest ... the church cared more about itself as an institution than it did about little children and adolescents entrusted to its care, that’s right, isn’t it?” | Shaw: “Can I suggest ... the church cared more about itself as an institution than it did about little children and adolescents entrusted to its care, that’s right, isn’t it?” |
| Pell: “The church too often did not care adequately for the survivors and children.” | Pell: “The church too often did not care adequately for the survivors and children.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.21pm GMT | at 11.21pm GMT |
| 11.15pm GMT | 11.15pm GMT |
| 23:15 | 23:15 |
| A lawyer representing victims, Jim Shaw, puts it to Pell: “To paraphrase the old saying, your memory works in mysterious ways, Cardinal?” | A lawyer representing victims, Jim Shaw, puts it to Pell: “To paraphrase the old saying, your memory works in mysterious ways, Cardinal?” |
| Pell: “No more mysterious than many other people and in fact my memory of events 30 or 40 years ago might be marginally better than the memories of some.” | Pell: “No more mysterious than many other people and in fact my memory of events 30 or 40 years ago might be marginally better than the memories of some.” |
| Shaw: “I suggest it’s implausible that the only thing you would remember nothing of these meetings except for one thing and a thing that didn’t happen. That is, the fact that paedophilia was not mentioned? That is implausible, Cardinal?” | Shaw: “I suggest it’s implausible that the only thing you would remember nothing of these meetings except for one thing and a thing that didn’t happen. That is, the fact that paedophilia was not mentioned? That is implausible, Cardinal?” |
| Pell: “Well,the way you put it, it certainly is. I never suggested I remembered nothing of the meetings. Paedophilia is abhorrent and if it was mentioned, I would have remembered it.” | Pell: “Well,the way you put it, it certainly is. I never suggested I remembered nothing of the meetings. Paedophilia is abhorrent and if it was mentioned, I would have remembered it.” |
| The meeting being referred to is a meeting of consultors in 1982 where Pell was present. At the meeting it was decided to move notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale for a sixth time between parishes. While the majority of people at that meeting knew Ridsdale was abusing children, Pell maintains he did not know and he also did not know the true reason for Ridsdale being moved. On Wednesday counsel assisting, Gail Furness, told Pell it was implausible that the bishop and his other consultors knew while Pell did not. | The meeting being referred to is a meeting of consultors in 1982 where Pell was present. At the meeting it was decided to move notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale for a sixth time between parishes. While the majority of people at that meeting knew Ridsdale was abusing children, Pell maintains he did not know and he also did not know the true reason for Ridsdale being moved. On Wednesday counsel assisting, Gail Furness, told Pell it was implausible that the bishop and his other consultors knew while Pell did not. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.25pm GMT | at 11.25pm GMT |