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| Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live | Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.24am GMT | |
| 01:24 | |
| A recap of today's evidence | |
| Day one of Pell’s evidence before Australia’s child sex abuse royal commission may have started softly, with counsel assisting, Gail Furness, clarifying Pell’s roles within the diocese of Ballarat and who he worked with. | |
| But on Tuesday, day two of Pell’s evidence, Furness comprehensively questioned Pell about how it was he could not have known that notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was abusing children. At times, Pell appeared to grow frustrated with the questioning, but Furness was unmoved. She and commission chair, Justice Peter McClellan, systematically pressed Pell about what was known about child abusers within the diocese during the period he served as a parish priest at Ballarat East from 1973 to 1983. | |
| Pell also served as a consultor to the bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, a role which included having meetings with Mulkearns and advising him on the appointment and movement of priests to and between parishes. The commission heard that by the time a meeting of consultors was held in 1982, at which Pell was present, Mulkearns and the majority of consultors knew Ridsdale was abusing. At that meeting, they decided to move Ridsdale between parishes for a sixth time. | |
| Pell maintains despite widespread knowledge of Ridsdale’s abusing, he was not told about it and did not hear about it. Ridsdale had been abusing from the 1960s onwards, the commission previously heard. In 1973, Ridsdale and Pell lived together in the parish house of St Alipius in Ballarat East. But Pell says he never knew Ridsdale was abusing children. | |
| The evidence was at times explosive. | |
| Pell attracted gasps from those attending the commission in Sydney when he told the commission that the widespread child abuse at the hands of pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was “a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me”. | |
| Pell said he doesn’t think people with no knowledge of abuse should be held accountable for failing to protect children. He was accused by Furness of trying to “exclude yourself from all responsibility” from abuses that occurred within Ballarat. | |
| Asked if he accepted any responsibility for Ridsdale being moved from parish to parish, rather than removed from the church or reported to police, Pell responded; “No, I don’t”. | |
| At times, survivors of abuse walked out of the Sydney hearing, angered and distressed by Pell’s responses. | |
| Furness put it to Pell that it was implausible he did not know about the abusing by Ridsdale and that he was being moved between parishes for that reason. | |
| Pell replied; “That is a complete nonsense”. | |
| We’ll have reaction to the day’s evidence from some of the survivors shortly. | |
| 12.58am GMT | |
| 00:58 | |
| And we've adjourned for the day... | |
| The inquiry will resume tomorrow at 8am Australian eastern daylight time. Stay with us here for a wrap-up of the evidence and reaction. | |
| 12.57am GMT | |
| 00:57 | |
| 'I am not sure at that stage there was even a civic obligation to report such a crime,' Pell says. | |
| Furness: “Outside of the canon law provisions, are you suggesting that a priest, who has knowledge of an abuse of a child but has no responsibility under canon law, is entitled within the structure of the church to do nothing?” | |
| Pell: “I’m not sure that he would morally escape such an obligation, but I am not sure at that stage there was even a civic obligation to report such a crime.” | |
| Furness: “Could it ever be that someone in a position of responsibility, such as a priest, even if they didn’t have a legal obligation, when they had reasonable allegations that one of their colleagues was abusing children, could it ever be that that priest didn’t have a responsibility to do what he could to try and stop the conduct from happening?” | |
| Pell: “I think I have explicitly acknowledged that moral responsibility.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.00am GMT | |
| 12.54am GMT | 12.54am GMT |
| 00:54 | 00:54 |
| Elle Hunt | Elle Hunt |
| Emily Bryan, the ABC’s coordinating producer based in London, has quoted a NSW priest in Rome on Pell. She reports that he says that the Cardinal is answering truthfully, and that abuse cover-ups “wouldn’t happen now”. | Emily Bryan, the ABC’s coordinating producer based in London, has quoted a NSW priest in Rome on Pell. She reports that he says that the Cardinal is answering truthfully, and that abuse cover-ups “wouldn’t happen now”. |
| A NSW priest in Rome says #Pell is answering truthfully, and abuse cover-ups "wouldn't happen now." Says context of era important. @abcnews | A NSW priest in Rome says #Pell is answering truthfully, and abuse cover-ups "wouldn't happen now." Says context of era important. @abcnews |
| The sentiment was echoed by young priests quoted by Bryan’s colleague Lisa Millar, the London bureau chief for ABC. | The sentiment was echoed by young priests quoted by Bryan’s colleague Lisa Millar, the London bureau chief for ABC. |
| Just spoke to some young priests who are here to support Cardinal Pell and 'learn'. They say abuse of 70s would not happen now in church | Just spoke to some young priests who are here to support Cardinal Pell and 'learn'. They say abuse of 70s would not happen now in church |
| Millar has described the survivors coming and going from the hearing room. | Millar has described the survivors coming and going from the hearing room. |
| Every now and then a survivor leaves #Pell Rome hearing room, then returns. They seem spellbound by what they're hearing. Watching intensely | Every now and then a survivor leaves #Pell Rome hearing room, then returns. They seem spellbound by what they're hearing. Watching intensely |
| She said earlier that there were 75 people in the hearing room at the Hotel Quirinale, with the front four rows still full of survivor groups from Australia. | She said earlier that there were 75 people in the hearing room at the Hotel Quirinale, with the front four rows still full of survivor groups from Australia. |
| Headcount in Rome - 75 left in hotel hearing room. Lots of empty chairs. Front 4 rows still full with survivor groups from Oz #pell | Headcount in Rome - 75 left in hotel hearing room. Lots of empty chairs. Front 4 rows still full with survivor groups from Oz #pell |
| Meanwhile, Pell and the Ballarat abuse survivors were covered in a half-page story in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica today. The headline says, ‘From Australia to Rome: ‘We the victims of abuse are here to see Pell’. | Meanwhile, Pell and the Ballarat abuse survivors were covered in a half-page story in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica today. The headline says, ‘From Australia to Rome: ‘We the victims of abuse are here to see Pell’. |
| George #Pell and Ballarat abuse survivors are making news in Rome. Half-page story in La Repubblica today. @abcnews pic.twitter.com/JjZisbTlCE | George #Pell and Ballarat abuse survivors are making news in Rome. Half-page story in La Repubblica today. @abcnews pic.twitter.com/JjZisbTlCE |
| 12.47am GMT | 12.47am GMT |
| 00:47 | 00:47 |
| Justice McClellan and counsel assisting, Gail Furness, continue to press Pell on what was said at a meeting of consultors about Gerald Ridsdale’s abusing of children, and the reasons why it was decided at that meeting to move Ridsdale for a sixth time to another parish. | Justice McClellan and counsel assisting, Gail Furness, continue to press Pell on what was said at a meeting of consultors about Gerald Ridsdale’s abusing of children, and the reasons why it was decided at that meeting to move Ridsdale for a sixth time to another parish. |
| We now know Ridsdale was moved because he was abusing children, and that most of the consultors at the meeting knew that was the reason. But Pell maintains he did not know why Ridsdale was being moved to another parish, though he was present at the meeting. | We now know Ridsdale was moved because he was abusing children, and that most of the consultors at the meeting knew that was the reason. But Pell maintains he did not know why Ridsdale was being moved to another parish, though he was present at the meeting. |
| McClellan; “You, as a responsible consultor, would want to know, you would be very concerned to know whether or not the reason [for moving Gerald Risdale to a new parish] was because Ridsdale’s activities had become a matter of public scandal, wouldn’t you?” | McClellan; “You, as a responsible consultor, would want to know, you would be very concerned to know whether or not the reason [for moving Gerald Risdale to a new parish] was because Ridsdale’s activities had become a matter of public scandal, wouldn’t you?” |
| Pell: “I would have been much more – it would have been important to know whether the public scandal touched on underage sexual activity or the public scandal was of another nature, say drinking or quarrelling or adult sexual activity. | |
| McClellan: “Whatever it was, public scandal brings real problems for the church, doesn’t it?” | |
| Pell: “Yes, it does.” | Pell: “Yes, it does.” |
| Furness: “I think where we’re up to, Cardinal, is that you don’t have any recollection of what was said at the meeting, although you have a recollection of what was not said, is that fair?” | Furness: “I think where we’re up to, Cardinal, is that you don’t have any recollection of what was said at the meeting, although you have a recollection of what was not said, is that fair?” |
| Pell: “I have studied the minutes of this meeting that took place over 30 years ago and, in the light of those minutes, I am quite happy to accept them.” | Pell: “I have studied the minutes of this meeting that took place over 30 years ago and, in the light of those minutes, I am quite happy to accept them.” |
| Furness: “That was not my question, I will repeat it. You do not have any recollection of what was said at the meeting although you have a recollection of what was not said, is that right?” | Furness: “That was not my question, I will repeat it. You do not have any recollection of what was said at the meeting although you have a recollection of what was not said, is that right?” |
| Pell: “I wonder whether that is misleading ... Independent of the minutes, I do know the basis on which we proceeded. That was ... when a priest could be shifted for non-criminal activities and the reasons would not necessarily be given.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 12.58am GMT | |
| 12.41am GMT | 12.41am GMT |
| 00:41 | 00:41 |
| People in Ballarat Town Hall getting increasingly frustrated. Open heckling going on, a couple have walked out #CARoyalComm | People in Ballarat Town Hall getting increasingly frustrated. Open heckling going on, a couple have walked out #CARoyalComm |
| 12.34am GMT | 12.34am GMT |
| 00:34 | 00:34 |
| Justice Peter McClellan; “To your knowledge, there are many priests who have engaged in sexual activity, aren’t there?” | Justice Peter McClellan; “To your knowledge, there are many priests who have engaged in sexual activity, aren’t there?” |
| Pell: “Too many.” | Pell: “Too many.” |
| 12.31am GMT | 12.31am GMT |
| 00:31 | 00:31 |
| Furness is growing impatient with Pell. | Furness is growing impatient with Pell. |
| Furness: “You now recall that the bishop at that meeting said that [paedophile priest] Father Ridsdale was open and available for an appropriate transfer or promotion? Do you now remember that was said at the meeting?” | Furness: “You now recall that the bishop at that meeting said that [paedophile priest] Father Ridsdale was open and available for an appropriate transfer or promotion? Do you now remember that was said at the meeting?” |
| Pell: “Short of consulting the minutes, I don’t.” | Pell: “Short of consulting the minutes, I don’t.” |
| Furness: “Consult the minutes, they are in front of you.” | Furness: “Consult the minutes, they are in front of you.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.45am GMT | at 12.45am GMT |
| 12.28am GMT | 12.28am GMT |
| 00:28 | 00:28 |
| Furness: I suggest that you failed in your responsibility as a consultor. | Furness: I suggest that you failed in your responsibility as a consultor. |
| Continuing from the post below, Pell says he can not recall why, at a meeting of consultors in 1982 at which he was present, it was decided that Gerald Ridsdale, needed to be moved for a sixth time to another parish. | Continuing from the post below, Pell says he can not recall why, at a meeting of consultors in 1982 at which he was present, it was decided that Gerald Ridsdale, needed to be moved for a sixth time to another parish. |
| But he does recall homosexuality was mentioned, but paedophilia was not, he tells the commission. Ridsdale committed more than 100 offences against children as young as four, and is now in jail. | But he does recall homosexuality was mentioned, but paedophilia was not, he tells the commission. Ridsdale committed more than 100 offences against children as young as four, and is now in jail. |
| Furness: “You can’t recall what was said at the meeting, other than to recall that paedophilia wasn’t said at the meeting, is that your evidence?” | Furness: “You can’t recall what was said at the meeting, other than to recall that paedophilia wasn’t said at the meeting, is that your evidence?” |
| Pell: “That is, in terms of the reasons that were given for his being shifted and that recollection is reinforced by the fact that he has been proposed for a job which has some prestige. That is incompatible with, in my mind, with somebody with a string of awful offences. I knew nothing of his paedophilia.” | Pell: “That is, in terms of the reasons that were given for his being shifted and that recollection is reinforced by the fact that he has been proposed for a job which has some prestige. That is incompatible with, in my mind, with somebody with a string of awful offences. I knew nothing of his paedophilia.” |
| Furness: “Did you say to the bishop; ‘Why is it that his unusual number of appointments are continuing? Why are we moving him yet again?’. I suggest that you failed in your responsibility as a consultor, if, as your evidence is, you knew nothing about Ridsdale and you didn’t inquire. Do you accept that failure? | Furness: “Did you say to the bishop; ‘Why is it that his unusual number of appointments are continuing? Why are we moving him yet again?’. I suggest that you failed in your responsibility as a consultor, if, as your evidence is, you knew nothing about Ridsdale and you didn’t inquire. Do you accept that failure? |
| Pell: “I never suggested that I knew nothing. I have never suggested that I knew nothing about Ridsdale. I have never suggested that I didn’t inquire generally.” | Pell: “I never suggested that I knew nothing. I have never suggested that I knew nothing about Ridsdale. I have never suggested that I didn’t inquire generally.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.48am GMT | at 12.48am GMT |
| 12.20am GMT | 12.20am GMT |
| 00:20 | 00:20 |
| Furness says it is 'implausible' Pell did not know Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children | |
| By the time a consultors meeting was held in 1982 (Pell was a consultor), the then bishop of Ballarat Ronald Mulkearns, and a senior cleric, Monsignor Leo Fiscalini, knew Father Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children and a large number of complaints had been made against him. Ridsdale had been moved between five parishes by this time rather than being reported to police, the commission hears. | |
| Pell was present at the meeting, minutes tendered to the commission show. At that meeting, it was decided Ridsdale had to be moved once again. | Pell was present at the meeting, minutes tendered to the commission show. At that meeting, it was decided Ridsdale had to be moved once again. |
| Furness tells Pell: “I suggest that it is implausible that those others, consultors at that meeting, including yourself, were not told why it had become necessary?” | Furness tells Pell: “I suggest that it is implausible that those others, consultors at that meeting, including yourself, were not told why it had become necessary?” |
| Pell: “It would only be implausible if there was evidence that they had been told in some way or other.” | Pell: “It would only be implausible if there was evidence that they had been told in some way or other.” |
| Furness: “I suggest that it is implausible, given the knowledge of three of those consultors, given the conduct of Ridsdale and the wording of those minutes that the consultors, including you, did not know why it had become necessary for him to be moved?” | Furness: “I suggest that it is implausible, given the knowledge of three of those consultors, given the conduct of Ridsdale and the wording of those minutes that the consultors, including you, did not know why it had become necessary for him to be moved?” |
| Pell: “That is a complete nonsense.” | Pell: “That is a complete nonsense.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.55am GMT | |
| 12.12am GMT | 12.12am GMT |
| 00:12 | 00:12 |
| Pell is saying his role as principal of the Institute of Catholic Education in the early 1980s was a legitimate reason that he was not aware of widespread rumours that Father Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children. | Pell is saying his role as principal of the Institute of Catholic Education in the early 1980s was a legitimate reason that he was not aware of widespread rumours that Father Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children. |
| The chair of the royal commission, Justice Peter McClellan, questions Pell about this. Pell was still living in Ballarat at the time. | The chair of the royal commission, Justice Peter McClellan, questions Pell about this. Pell was still living in Ballarat at the time. |
| McClellan; “Do you think that given the nature of the allegations and given the number of people that we can assume have knowledge of them, including senior church people, do you think it might be surprising that you didn’t hear any rumour at all?” | McClellan; “Do you think that given the nature of the allegations and given the number of people that we can assume have knowledge of them, including senior church people, do you think it might be surprising that you didn’t hear any rumour at all?” |
| Pell: “Not necessarily, given the work I was doing. I wasn’t working full-time in the diocese. I was very much involved in the world of tertiary education.” | Pell: “Not necessarily, given the work I was doing. I wasn’t working full-time in the diocese. I was very much involved in the world of tertiary education.” |
| McClellan: “Where were you living?” | McClellan: “Where were you living?” |
| Pell: “With Bishop O’Collins” [in the house of St Alipius in Ballarat East]. | Pell: “With Bishop O’Collins” [in the house of St Alipius in Ballarat East]. |
| McClellan: “Were you saying mass regularly on Sundays?” | McClellan: “Were you saying mass regularly on Sundays?” |
| Pell: “I was at Ballarat East.” | Pell: “I was at Ballarat East.” |
| McClellan: “That was every Sunday, was it?” | McClellan: “That was every Sunday, was it?” |
| Pell: “Yes.” | Pell: “Yes.” |
| McClellan: “I assume three times a day, would that be right?” | McClellan: “I assume three times a day, would that be right?” |
| Pell: “Three times a Sunday, generally.” | Pell: “Three times a Sunday, generally.” |
| McClellan: “No doubt, before and after the mass, you would speak to members of the congregations, would that be right?” | McClellan: “No doubt, before and after the mass, you would speak to members of the congregations, would that be right?” |
| Pell: “When that was possible, that was my – that was certainly my practice.” | Pell: “When that was possible, that was my – that was certainly my practice.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.54am GMT | at 12.54am GMT |
| 12.02am GMT | 12.02am GMT |
| 00:02 | 00:02 |
| Furness is turning her attention to Pell’s cousin, Father Henry Nolan. Nolan, who was vicar general at the time, took action immediately upon realising a 14-year-old boy was being made to sleep in the same room as notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale. | Furness is turning her attention to Pell’s cousin, Father Henry Nolan. Nolan, who was vicar general at the time, took action immediately upon realising a 14-year-old boy was being made to sleep in the same room as notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale. |
| Nolan demanded the child be removed, Furness said, despite not having direct authority over the Mortlake parish. | Nolan demanded the child be removed, Furness said, despite not having direct authority over the Mortlake parish. |
| Furness: “That is an example, isn’t it, of a priest who didn’t have structural responsibility of taking a responsible course of action and having the child removed?” | Furness: “That is an example, isn’t it, of a priest who didn’t have structural responsibility of taking a responsible course of action and having the child removed?” |
| Pell: “He was vicar general at that stage but what he did was excellent. | Pell: “He was vicar general at that stage but what he did was excellent. |
| Furness: “What he did was available to any priest, I suggest to you, to demand action be taken to protect children.” | Furness: “What he did was available to any priest, I suggest to you, to demand action be taken to protect children.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.54am GMT | at 12.54am GMT |
| 11.53pm GMT | 11.53pm GMT |
| 23:53 | 23:53 |
| Pell: I can’t nominate another bishop whose actions are so grave and inexplicable | Pell: I can’t nominate another bishop whose actions are so grave and inexplicable |
| The bishop of Ballarat between 1971 and 1997, Ronald Mulkearns, behaved reprehensibly towards victims of child sexual abuse and their concerned parents, Cardinal George Pell has told the commission. The commission heard that in reaction to one parent who came to him to say her children were being abused, Mulkearns “just stared”. | The bishop of Ballarat between 1971 and 1997, Ronald Mulkearns, behaved reprehensibly towards victims of child sexual abuse and their concerned parents, Cardinal George Pell has told the commission. The commission heard that in reaction to one parent who came to him to say her children were being abused, Mulkearns “just stared”. |
| Furness asks Pell: “Do you think Bishop Mulkearns is just one bad apple, as it were, within the Catholic church as a bishop by conducting himself in the way that he has up until this date?” | Furness asks Pell: “Do you think Bishop Mulkearns is just one bad apple, as it were, within the Catholic church as a bishop by conducting himself in the way that he has up until this date?” |
| Pell: “Unfortunately, I would have to say that I can’t nominate another bishop whose actions are so grave and inexplicable. There might be some but they don’t come to mind. His repeated refusal to act is, I think, absolutely extraordinary.” | Pell: “Unfortunately, I would have to say that I can’t nominate another bishop whose actions are so grave and inexplicable. There might be some but they don’t come to mind. His repeated refusal to act is, I think, absolutely extraordinary.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.57pm GMT | at 11.57pm GMT |
| 11.47pm GMT | 11.47pm GMT |
| 23:47 | 23:47 |
| Furness is taking Pell through the various abuses Gerald Ridsdale inflicted on children in Mortlake. She’s also taking him through the numerous people who knew a 14 year-old boy, Paul Levey, was living with Ridsdale. She’s also presenting him with documents that details complaints made about Ridsdale. Pell maintains he was unaware of all of this. | Furness is taking Pell through the various abuses Gerald Ridsdale inflicted on children in Mortlake. She’s also taking him through the numerous people who knew a 14 year-old boy, Paul Levey, was living with Ridsdale. She’s also presenting him with documents that details complaints made about Ridsdale. Pell maintains he was unaware of all of this. |
| Furness: “You will see that [a parent] BAI rang the family doctor and asked him what he could tell about people who molested children. She doesn’t recall if she named Ridsdale but he was the only priest in Mortlake. | Furness: “You will see that [a parent] BAI rang the family doctor and asked him what he could tell about people who molested children. She doesn’t recall if she named Ridsdale but he was the only priest in Mortlake. |
| “Again, stopping there, we have now at this stage in Mortlake the family doctor being aware there was a problem with Ridsdale, a number of people knowing that there was a boy living in the presbytery with Ridsdale and Father Finnigan being aware that one set of parents was concerned about the welfare of their child around Ridsdale. Do you agree with that?” | “Again, stopping there, we have now at this stage in Mortlake the family doctor being aware there was a problem with Ridsdale, a number of people knowing that there was a boy living in the presbytery with Ridsdale and Father Finnigan being aware that one set of parents was concerned about the welfare of their child around Ridsdale. Do you agree with that?” |
| Pell: “I do.” | Pell: “I do.” |
| Furness: “It is getting close to common knowledge, isn’t it?” | Furness: “It is getting close to common knowledge, isn’t it?” |
| Pell: “Certainly those people knew. Could I just repeat something I have said partially before. Some time around 1980, I became principal of the institute of Catholic education which had 2000 students in Ballarat and Melbourne. It is not a small job. I was in Melbourne at least a couple of times a week, so I certainly wasn’t in with the life of the diocese like someone who would be working full-time in parishes.” | Pell: “Certainly those people knew. Could I just repeat something I have said partially before. Some time around 1980, I became principal of the institute of Catholic education which had 2000 students in Ballarat and Melbourne. It is not a small job. I was in Melbourne at least a couple of times a week, so I certainly wasn’t in with the life of the diocese like someone who would be working full-time in parishes.” |
| Furness ignores this disclaimer, and continues with her questioning. | Furness ignores this disclaimer, and continues with her questioning. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.48pm GMT | at 11.48pm GMT |