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| Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live | Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 12.47am GMT | |
| 00:47 | |
| Pell tells Furness that the 1960s were a “turbulent time” for the Catholic church. | |
| This was the ‘60s. We had the Vatican Council and you would remember at the start of the ‘60s we had the invention of the contraceptive pill which has provoked a social revolution. | |
| The 1960s were "a difficult time" Cardinal Pell says. The Pill, the sexual revolution... | |
| 12.42am GMT | |
| 00:42 | |
| The commission is now turning its attention back to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale. | |
| Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat, the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse has previously heard. He is now in prison. | |
| Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile. | |
| Furness: “Did anything come to your attention when you were in Swan Hill about Father Ridsdale and innuendo, gossip, rumours about sexual misconduct with children?” | |
| Pell: “No.” | |
| Furness: “No rumours about him at all?” | |
| Pell: “No rumours of sexual misconduct.” | |
| 12.37am GMT | |
| 00:37 | |
| Many people knew of the abuse, but Pell maintains he did not | |
| Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is running Pell through the long list of people who knew about abuse occurring within the Diocese of Ballarat. Pell has maintained despite this widespread knowledge, he did not know about child sexual abuse definitively occurring within the diocese while he was an assistant priest at Ballarat East. | |
| Furness: “Cardinal, it seems doesn’t it, that there was knowledge around Ballarat East about the offending of a number of brothers, that’s right?” | |
| Pell: “Yes, there was some knowledge, you’ve demonstrated that.” | |
| Furness: The knowledge was held by a range of people, there were students who had the knowledge,you’d agree with that?” | |
| Pell: “Some students, yes.” | |
| Furness continued that there were also teachers, principals, and parents who knew what was going on. | |
| Furness: “From the material I’ve taken you to, you’d agree wouldn’t you that the knowledge of the sexual offending by Christian Brothers at St Alpius school and St Pat’s school was known by a significant number in the community. Would you agree with that? | |
| Pell: “I would agree that it was known to all the people whom you’ve mentioned and they do constitute a significant number.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 12.38am GMT | |
| 12.30am GMT | |
| 00:30 | |
| Some reactions from Twitter; | |
| #Pell getting visibly annoyed."No such recollection" "No such recollection"Inconceivable that he wouldn't know about abuse. #ABCNews24 | |
| Infractions.Eccentricities.Indiscretions.Misbehaviour.Say what you like about #Pell, he has a great way with euphemisms for molestation. | |
| It's 1am in Rome and bleary eyes are watching 4th hour of #Pell evidence. Total silence from abuse survivors, listening intently. @abcnews | |
| 12.26am GMT | |
| 00:26 | |
| Furness asks Pell if he was told of complaints made about Brother Dowlan abusing children. | |
| Pell: “No.” | |
| Furness: “No?” | |
| Pell: “No, the conduct that was brought to my attention was unspecified except that it was somehow wrong or untoward.” | |
| Furness: “What about Brother Dowlan putting his hands down boys’ trousers?” | |
| Pell: “No.” | |
| 12.22am GMT | |
| 00:22 | |
| Elle Hunt | |
| Former New South Wales premier Kristina Keneally is a must-follow if you’ve been following the royal commission on Twitter. | |
| A prominent commentator in the Catholic community, and holding a Master’s degree in theology, she has has been live-tweeting the royal commission this morning. | |
| #royalcommission - Did parents raise complaints re inappropriate touching?Pell: can't remember any but my memory might be playing me false | |
| Pell: I wasn't aware of Bishop Mulkearns sending anyone off for treatment for sexual offending. #royalcommission | |
| #royalcommission - Cardinal Pell what do you recall?Pell: I don't want to rule things out that may have taken place but that I can't recall | |
| #royalcommission asking a wide range of questions. Not yet zeroing in on some specific evidence. Setting stage for the next few days. | |
| Writing on a keynote speech given by Pell at an international financial conference in Rome last month, Keneally commented that the Catholic church is a “slow-moving beast, especially when it comes to social and economic reforms”.At that stage it was unclear if or when Pell would appear at the royal commission.“My prediction – we won’t see Cardinal Pell physically in Australia again, at least until the Royal Commission has completed its work and submitted its findings. Perhaps never.”She will be writing on Pell’s evidence at the royal commission for Guardian Australia later this week. | |
| 12.16am GMT | 12.16am GMT |
| 00:16 | 00:16 |
| Last week the commission heard harrowing evidence from abuse survivor, Timothy Barlow, a former student of St Patrick’s College. He described St Patrick’s as “a survival of the fittest environment.” | Last week the commission heard harrowing evidence from abuse survivor, Timothy Barlow, a former student of St Patrick’s College. He described St Patrick’s as “a survival of the fittest environment.” |
| “There were rumours among students at the school that the Brothers were sexually abusing some of the kids,” Barlow told the commission. | “There were rumours among students at the school that the Brothers were sexually abusing some of the kids,” Barlow told the commission. |
| “I would describe it as common knowledge, because it was a topic of routine conversation among kids that this was going on.” | “I would describe it as common knowledge, because it was a topic of routine conversation among kids that this was going on.” |
| Barlow said he tried to stick up for the younger children who he knew who were being abused by the Brothers but was not taken seriously, even when he called his mother from the school and told her what was happening. He was subsequently bashed across the head. | Barlow said he tried to stick up for the younger children who he knew who were being abused by the Brothers but was not taken seriously, even when he called his mother from the school and told her what was happening. He was subsequently bashed across the head. |
| Furness asks Pell: “Is that the sort of information that came to your attention in relation to Brother Dowlan?” | Furness asks Pell: “Is that the sort of information that came to your attention in relation to Brother Dowlan?” |
| Pell: “No, nothing had been raised as gross as that at all.” | Pell: “No, nothing had been raised as gross as that at all.” |
| 12.12am GMT | 12.12am GMT |
| 00:12 | 00:12 |
| Furness is now asking Pell about Monsignor Lawrence O’Toole, who Pell described as a good friend of his. They lived together for a time at the presbytery. | Furness is now asking Pell about Monsignor Lawrence O’Toole, who Pell described as a good friend of his. They lived together for a time at the presbytery. |
| Furness said O’Toole said that while he was at the Ballarat East presbytery, where Pell was an assistant priest, parents told him of sexualised conduct by the Christian Brothers. | Furness said O’Toole said that while he was at the Ballarat East presbytery, where Pell was an assistant priest, parents told him of sexualised conduct by the Christian Brothers. |
| “Did he tell you about that?,” Furness asks Pell. | “Did he tell you about that?,” Furness asks Pell. |
| Pell: “No he didn’t mention that to me.” | Pell: “No he didn’t mention that to me.” |
| Furness: Monsignor O’Toole also gave evidence of having heard rumours about brother Fitzgerald taking boys out and going bike riding and the like and swimming in the nude. Did that come to your attention? | |
| Pell replied it was “quite common knowledge”. | Pell replied it was “quite common knowledge”. |
| “Once upon a time, in the schools it was not uncommon at all.” | “Once upon a time, in the schools it was not uncommon at all.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.53am GMT | |
| 12.03am GMT | 12.03am GMT |
| 00:03 | 00:03 |
| Furness is asking Pell about another Brother, Stephen Farrell, a Christian Brother at St Alpius Boys’ School in Ballarat East. He had allegations of sexual abuse made against him from six people, with the abuse allegedly occurring between 1971 and 1974, while Pell was an assistant priest. | Furness is asking Pell about another Brother, Stephen Farrell, a Christian Brother at St Alpius Boys’ School in Ballarat East. He had allegations of sexual abuse made against him from six people, with the abuse allegedly occurring between 1971 and 1974, while Pell was an assistant priest. |
| In 1997, Farrell was convicted of nine counts of indecent assault against two boys aged nine and 10 at the school but his two-year prison sentence was wholly suspended. | In 1997, Farrell was convicted of nine counts of indecent assault against two boys aged nine and 10 at the school but his two-year prison sentence was wholly suspended. |
| He was convicted of a further charge of indecent assault against a 10-year-old boy, with his sentence suspended on appeal. | He was convicted of a further charge of indecent assault against a 10-year-old boy, with his sentence suspended on appeal. |
| Furness: “Did you hear anything about Brother Farrel?” | Furness: “Did you hear anything about Brother Farrel?” |
| Pell: “I don’t recall anything at all. I can’t remember Brother Farrell at all.” | Pell: “I don’t recall anything at all. I can’t remember Brother Farrell at all.” |
| 11.59pm GMT | 11.59pm GMT |
| 23:59 | 23:59 |
| Ben Doherty | Ben Doherty |
| Australia’s most senior Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, has maintained he knew nothing of the paedophile priests operating within the diocese of Ballarat while he was a junior priest there but has conceded the church’s handling of child sexual abuse was “catastrophic” for its victims. | Australia’s most senior Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, has maintained he knew nothing of the paedophile priests operating within the diocese of Ballarat while he was a junior priest there but has conceded the church’s handling of child sexual abuse was “catastrophic” for its victims. |
| On the first day of four days of evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, Pell said the Catholic church had made “enormous mistakes” in dealing with allegations of abuse. | On the first day of four days of evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, Pell said the Catholic church had made “enormous mistakes” in dealing with allegations of abuse. |
| “I’m not here to defend the indefensible, the church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those, but the church has in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.” | “I’m not here to defend the indefensible, the church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those, but the church has in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.” |
| The full story about the first couple of hours evidence from reporter Ben Doherty can be found here. | The full story about the first couple of hours evidence from reporter Ben Doherty can be found here. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.01am GMT | at 12.01am GMT |
| 11.57pm GMT | 11.57pm GMT |
| 23:57 | 23:57 |
| Furness; “When did you first hear of Christian Brothers at Ballarat offending against children?” | Furness; “When did you first hear of Christian Brothers at Ballarat offending against children?” |
| Pell: “That’s a very good question. Perhaps in the early ‘70s I heard things about Dowlan.” | Pell: “That’s a very good question. Perhaps in the early ‘70s I heard things about Dowlan.” |
| Last week the commission heard Brother Edward Dowlan “made little attempt to conceal his behaviour”. In a previous commission hearing about Ballarat held last year, the commission heard from a witness that he was raped by Dowlan. | Last week the commission heard Brother Edward Dowlan “made little attempt to conceal his behaviour”. In a previous commission hearing about Ballarat held last year, the commission heard from a witness that he was raped by Dowlan. |
| In 2015, Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period. | In 2015, Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period. |
| Furness: “What did you hear about Dowlan?” | Furness: “What did you hear about Dowlan?” |
| Pell: “I heard that there were problems at St Patrick’s College.” | Pell: “I heard that there were problems at St Patrick’s College.” |
| Furness: “What sort of problems?” | Furness: “What sort of problems?” |
| Pell: “Unspecified, but harsh discipline and possibly other infractions also.” | Pell: “Unspecified, but harsh discipline and possibly other infractions also.” |
| Furness: “When you say possibly other infractions, you mean of a sexual nature?” | Furness: “When you say possibly other infractions, you mean of a sexual nature?” |
| Pell: “I do.” | Pell: “I do.” |
| Furness: “Where did you hear that from?” | Furness: “Where did you hear that from?” |
| Pell: “Once again, it’s difficult to recall accurately.” | Pell: “Once again, it’s difficult to recall accurately.” |
| 11.53pm GMT | 11.53pm GMT |
| 23:53 | 23:53 |
| Pell says reporting abuse by Christian Brothers was not within his jurisdiction | Pell says reporting abuse by Christian Brothers was not within his jurisdiction |
| Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is renowned for being tough and thorough in her questioning. She is well respected by abuse survivors and her legal peers. | Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is renowned for being tough and thorough in her questioning. She is well respected by abuse survivors and her legal peers. |
| Furness puts it to Pell that, as an assistant priest, he could have done something with the rumours about Brother Fitzgerald acting inappropriately towards children. | Furness puts it to Pell that, as an assistant priest, he could have done something with the rumours about Brother Fitzgerald acting inappropriately towards children. |
| Pell: “Well, I could have mentioned it to the principal or the parish priest, but I had no jurisdiction in any sense over the Christian Brothers.” | Pell: “Well, I could have mentioned it to the principal or the parish priest, but I had no jurisdiction in any sense over the Christian Brothers.” |
| Furness: “But I take it from what you’ve said the principal and the parish priest were probably aware of it as well?” | Furness: “But I take it from what you’ve said the principal and the parish priest were probably aware of it as well?” |
| Pell: “Yes I think that’s a reasonable assumption.” | Pell: “Yes I think that’s a reasonable assumption.” |
| 11.49pm GMT | 11.49pm GMT |
| 23:49 | 23:49 |
| Now Furness is turning her questioning to the Christian Brothers, and is focussing on Brothers who were abusing children while Pell served as assistant priest at Ballarat East. | Now Furness is turning her questioning to the Christian Brothers, and is focussing on Brothers who were abusing children while Pell served as assistant priest at Ballarat East. |
| A religious community within the Catholic church, the Christian Brothers primarily worked in educational facilities for children. | A religious community within the Catholic church, the Christian Brothers primarily worked in educational facilities for children. |
| In all, 281 individual members of the Christian Brothers in Australia have been subject to one or more claims or substantiated complaints of child sexual abuse, the commission heard, with 45% of that abuse occurring in Tasmania or Victoria, the commission heard last week. | In all, 281 individual members of the Christian Brothers in Australia have been subject to one or more claims or substantiated complaints of child sexual abuse, the commission heard, with 45% of that abuse occurring in Tasmania or Victoria, the commission heard last week. |
| Furness is asking Pell about what he knew of Brother Gerald Leo Fitzgerald, who was forced to retire from teaching at St Alpius Boys’ School, with a report saying he had “reached that stage of life when, for some men, control of emotional impulses becomes lessened”. | Furness is asking Pell about what he knew of Brother Gerald Leo Fitzgerald, who was forced to retire from teaching at St Alpius Boys’ School, with a report saying he had “reached that stage of life when, for some men, control of emotional impulses becomes lessened”. |
| He was allowed to continue to live within the St Patrick’s religious community, the commission heard. A separate report stated he went into the junior dormitory to “play with boys”. He died in 1987 and was never charged. | He was allowed to continue to live within the St Patrick’s religious community, the commission heard. A separate report stated he went into the junior dormitory to “play with boys”. He died in 1987 and was never charged. |
| Pell says there was talk within the parish of Fitzgerald’s “eccentricity”. | Pell says there was talk within the parish of Fitzgerald’s “eccentricity”. |
| “But there was no specific accusations,” Pell adds. | “But there was no specific accusations,” Pell adds. |
| Furness: “What was it about the brother that showed him to be eccentric?” | Furness: “What was it about the brother that showed him to be eccentric?” |
| Pell: “I think he used to-’s alleged when some of the boys were leaving he’d given them a kiss. He was very strange, old fashioned, but good teacher. There were things like that.” | Pell: “I think he used to-’s alleged when some of the boys were leaving he’d given them a kiss. He was very strange, old fashioned, but good teacher. There were things like that.” |
| Furness: “At the time did you see him as kissing the children as sexualised behaviour?” | Furness: “At the time did you see him as kissing the children as sexualised behaviour?” |
| Pell: “No, it was common knowledge and the general conviction was it was it was harmless enough.” | Pell: “No, it was common knowledge and the general conviction was it was it was harmless enough.” |
| 11.41pm GMT | 11.41pm GMT |
| 23:41 | 23:41 |
| The commission hears that after Day, an abuser of children, became aware of an police investigation against him, he resigned from his position. | The commission hears that after Day, an abuser of children, became aware of an police investigation against him, he resigned from his position. |
| The Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, had also received visits from numerous people who told him about Day’s abusing, Furness said. | The Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, had also received visits from numerous people who told him about Day’s abusing, Furness said. |
| Yet one year after Day resigned, he was appointed as a parish priest, Furness said. | Yet one year after Day resigned, he was appointed as a parish priest, Furness said. |
| Pell: “Um... In the light of what I know, now,and obviously our present basic and appropriate understandings, it’s quite unacceptable.” | Pell: “Um... In the light of what I know, now,and obviously our present basic and appropriate understandings, it’s quite unacceptable.” |
| Furness: “It’s unacceptable because it’s putting a priest who is subject of serious sexual allegations against children back into a parish, isn’t it?” | Furness: “It’s unacceptable because it’s putting a priest who is subject of serious sexual allegations against children back into a parish, isn’t it?” |
| Pell: “That’s correct.” | Pell: “That’s correct.” |
| Furness: “Did it come to your attention that that occurred?” | Furness: “Did it come to your attention that that occurred?” |
| Pell: “Yes, I think I was aware of that.” | Pell: “Yes, I think I was aware of that.” |
| 11.36pm GMT | 11.36pm GMT |
| 23:36 | 23:36 |
| Furness refers Pell to a newspaper article published in 1972 about a police investigation about abuse within the Ballarat diocese. At this time, Pell was an assistant priest at Ballarat East. | Furness refers Pell to a newspaper article published in 1972 about a police investigation about abuse within the Ballarat diocese. At this time, Pell was an assistant priest at Ballarat East. |
| Furness put it to Pell: “You had no doubt when you saw this article that it was about Day did you?” | Furness put it to Pell: “You had no doubt when you saw this article that it was about Day did you?” |
| Pell: “No, I had no doubts.” | Pell: “No, I had no doubts.” |
| Furness: “Was this is first occasion on which it came to your attention that a priest had been accused of sexual offences against children?” | Furness: “Was this is first occasion on which it came to your attention that a priest had been accused of sexual offences against children?” |
| Pell: “It’s difficult to answer that absolutely but it certainly would be one of the first and perhaps the first.” | Pell: “It’s difficult to answer that absolutely but it certainly would be one of the first and perhaps the first.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.40pm GMT | at 11.40pm GMT |