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Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live
(35 minutes later)
12.16am GMT
00:16
Last week the commission heard harrowing evidence from abuse survivor, Timothy Barlow, a former student of St Patrick’s College. He described St Patrick’s as “a survival of the fittest environment.”
“There were rumours among students at the school that the Brothers were sexually abusing some of the kids,” Barlow told the commission.
“I would describe it as common knowledge, because it was a topic of routine conversation among kids that this was going on.”
Barlow said he tried to stick up for the younger children who he knew who were being abused by the Brothers but was not taken seriously, even when he called his mother from the school and told her what was happening. He was subsequently bashed across the head.
Furness asks Pell: “Is that the sort of information that came to your attention in relation to Brother Dowlan?”
Pell: “No, nothing had been raised as gross as that at all.”
12.12am GMT
00:12
Furness is now asking Pell about Monsignor Lawrence O’Toole, who Pell described as a good friend of his. They lived together for a time at the presbytery.
Furness said O’Toole said that while he was at the Ballarat East presbytery, where Pell was an assistant priest, parents told him of sexualised conduct by the Christian Brothers.
“Did he tell you about that?,” Furness asks Pell.
Pell: “No he didn’t mention that to me.”
Furness: Monsignor O’Toole also gave evidence o fhaving heard rumours about brother Fitzgerald taking boys out and going bike riding and the like and swimming in the nude. Did that come to your attention?
Pell replied it was “quite common knowledge”.
“Once upon a time, in the schools it was not uncommon at all.”
Updated
at 12.12am GMT
12.03am GMT
00:03
Furness is asking Pell about another Brother, Stephen Farrell, a Christian Brother at St Alpius Boys’ School in Ballarat East. He had allegations of sexual abuse made against him from six people, with the abuse allegedly occurring between 1971 and 1974, while Pell was an assistant priest.
In 1997, Farrell was convicted of nine counts of indecent assault against two boys aged nine and 10 at the school but his two-year prison sentence was wholly suspended.
He was convicted of a further charge of indecent assault against a 10-year-old boy, with his sentence suspended on appeal.
Furness: “Did you hear anything about Brother Farrel?”
Pell: “I don’t recall anything at all. I can’t remember Brother Farrell at all.”
11.59pm GMT
23:59
Ben Doherty
Australia’s most senior Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, has maintained he knew nothing of the paedophile priests operating within the diocese of Ballarat while he was a junior priest there but has conceded the church’s handling of child sexual abuse was “catastrophic” for its victims.
On the first day of four days of evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, Pell said the Catholic church had made “enormous mistakes” in dealing with allegations of abuse.
“I’m not here to defend the indefensible, the church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those, but the church has in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
The full story about the first couple of hours evidence from reporter Ben Doherty can be found here.
Updated
at 12.01am GMT
11.57pm GMT
23:57
Furness; “When did you first hear of Christian Brothers at Ballarat offending against children?”
Pell: “That’s a very good question. Perhaps in the early ‘70s I heard things about Dowlan.”
Last week the commission heard Brother Edward Dowlan “made little attempt to conceal his behaviour”. In a previous commission hearing about Ballarat held last year, the commission heard from a witness that he was raped by Dowlan.
In 2015, Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period.
Furness: “What did you hear about Dowlan?”
Pell: “I heard that there were problems at St Patrick’s College.”
Furness: “What sort of problems?”
Pell: “Unspecified, but harsh discipline and possibly other infractions also.”
Furness: “When you say possibly other infractions, you mean of a sexual nature?”
Pell: “I do.”
Furness: “Where did you hear that from?”
Pell: “Once again, it’s difficult to recall accurately.”
11.53pm GMT
23:53
Pell says reporting abuse by Christian Brothers was not within his jurisdiction
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is renowned for being tough and thorough in her questioning. She is well respected by abuse survivors and her legal peers.
Furness puts it to Pell that, as an assistant priest, he could have done something with the rumours about Brother Fitzgerald acting inappropriately towards children.
Pell: “Well, I could have mentioned it to the principal or the parish priest, but I had no jurisdiction in any sense over the Christian Brothers.”
Furness: “But I take it from what you’ve said the principal and the parish priest were probably aware of it as well?”
Pell: “Yes I think that’s a reasonable assumption.”
11.49pm GMT
23:49
Now Furness is turning her questioning to the Christian Brothers, and is focussing on Brothers who were abusing children while Pell served as assistant priest at Ballarat East.
A religious community within the Catholic church, the Christian Brothers primarily worked in educational facilities for children.
In all, 281 individual members of the Christian Brothers in Australia have been subject to one or more claims or substantiated complaints of child sexual abuse, the commission heard, with 45% of that abuse occurring in Tasmania or Victoria, the commission heard last week.
Furness is asking Pell about what he knew of Brother Gerald Leo Fitzgerald, who was forced to retire from teaching at St Alpius Boys’ School, with a report saying he had “reached that stage of life when, for some men, control of emotional impulses becomes lessened”.
He was allowed to continue to live within the St Patrick’s religious community, the commission heard. A separate report stated he went into the junior dormitory to “play with boys”. He died in 1987 and was never charged.
Pell says there was talk within the parish of Fitzgerald’s “eccentricity”.
“But there was no specific accusations,” Pell adds.
Furness: “What was it about the brother that showed him to be eccentric?”
Pell: “I think he used to-’s alleged when some of the boys were leaving he’d given them a kiss. He was very strange, old fashioned, but good teacher. There were things like that.”
Furness: “At the time did you see him as kissing the children as sexualised behaviour?”
Pell: “No, it was common knowledge and the general conviction was it was it was harmless enough.”
11.41pm GMT11.41pm GMT
23:4123:41
The commission hears that after Day, an abuser of children, became aware of an police investigation against him, he resigned from his position.The commission hears that after Day, an abuser of children, became aware of an police investigation against him, he resigned from his position.
The Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, had also received visits from numerous people who told him about Day’s abusing, Furness said.The Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, had also received visits from numerous people who told him about Day’s abusing, Furness said.
Yet one year after Day resigned, he was appointed as a parish priest, Furness said.Yet one year after Day resigned, he was appointed as a parish priest, Furness said.
Pell: “Um... In the light of what I know, now,and obviously our present basic and appropriate understandings, it’s quite unacceptable.”Pell: “Um... In the light of what I know, now,and obviously our present basic and appropriate understandings, it’s quite unacceptable.”
Furness: “It’s unacceptable because it’s putting a priest who is subject of serious sexual allegations against children back into a parish, isn’t it?”Furness: “It’s unacceptable because it’s putting a priest who is subject of serious sexual allegations against children back into a parish, isn’t it?”
Pell: “That’s correct.”Pell: “That’s correct.”
Furness: “Did it come to your attention that that occurred?”Furness: “Did it come to your attention that that occurred?”
Pell: “Yes, I think I was aware of that.”Pell: “Yes, I think I was aware of that.”
11.36pm GMT11.36pm GMT
23:3623:36
Furness refers Pell to a newspaper article published in 1972 about a police investigation about abuse within the Ballarat diocese. At this time, Pell was an assistant priest at Ballarat East.Furness refers Pell to a newspaper article published in 1972 about a police investigation about abuse within the Ballarat diocese. At this time, Pell was an assistant priest at Ballarat East.
Furness put it to Pell: “You had no doubt when you saw this article that it was about Day did you?”Furness put it to Pell: “You had no doubt when you saw this article that it was about Day did you?”
Pell: “No, I had no doubts.”Pell: “No, I had no doubts.”
Furness: “Was this is first occasion on which it came to your attention that a priest had been accused of sexual offences against children?”Furness: “Was this is first occasion on which it came to your attention that a priest had been accused of sexual offences against children?”
Pell: “It’s difficult to answer that absolutely but it certainly would be one of the first and perhaps the first.”Pell: “It’s difficult to answer that absolutely but it certainly would be one of the first and perhaps the first.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.40pm GMTat 11.40pm GMT
11.30pm GMT11.30pm GMT
23:3023:30
Elle HuntElle Hunt
An Australian journalist was struck in the stomach and a cameraman aggressively shoved by unidentified officials while waiting for Pell to arrive at the Hotel Quirinale.An Australian journalist was struck in the stomach and a cameraman aggressively shoved by unidentified officials while waiting for Pell to arrive at the Hotel Quirinale.
Brett Mason, SBS Europe correspondent, told the Guardian’s Stephanie Kirchgaessner that he and a cameraman for Channel 9 were waiting across the street from the hotel in order to film the cardinal when a group of about six security officials rushed toward them and obstructed their view.Brett Mason, SBS Europe correspondent, told the Guardian’s Stephanie Kirchgaessner that he and a cameraman for Channel 9 were waiting across the street from the hotel in order to film the cardinal when a group of about six security officials rushed toward them and obstructed their view.
Their push was so aggressive that the camera held by cameraman Mark Brewer’s camera fell to the ground. “We haven’t made a complaint but we spoke to the commission,” Mason said, though he emphasised that he did not want the scuffle to deter attention from the commission meeting.Their push was so aggressive that the camera held by cameraman Mark Brewer’s camera fell to the ground. “We haven’t made a complaint but we spoke to the commission,” Mason said, though he emphasised that he did not want the scuffle to deter attention from the commission meeting.
Brewer said he had “never seen anything like” the men’s hostile behaviour in 35 years’ of being a cameraman. A statement released by Cardinal Pell’s office said that the incident did not involve his security staff, and that the Italian Police and commission staff were investigating the incident.Brewer said he had “never seen anything like” the men’s hostile behaviour in 35 years’ of being a cameraman. A statement released by Cardinal Pell’s office said that the incident did not involve his security staff, and that the Italian Police and commission staff were investigating the incident.
Cardinal Pell statement denying his security were involved in "Rome scuffle" with media @australian #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/8DB1DPgUNfCardinal Pell statement denying his security were involved in "Rome scuffle" with media @australian #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/8DB1DPgUNf
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.41pm GMTat 11.41pm GMT
11.28pm GMT11.28pm GMT
23:2823:28
There are a few technical difficulties occurring at the moment, with the connection dropping out now and then. This is one of the reasons chair of the commission, Justice McClellan, previously said he’d prefer Pell to give evidence in person in Australia.There are a few technical difficulties occurring at the moment, with the connection dropping out now and then. This is one of the reasons chair of the commission, Justice McClellan, previously said he’d prefer Pell to give evidence in person in Australia.
When Pell last gave evidence to the commission via videolink, his evidence was plagued by technical difficulties, however the delays so far today have only been minor in comparison.When Pell last gave evidence to the commission via videolink, his evidence was plagued by technical difficulties, however the delays so far today have only been minor in comparison.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.29pm GMTat 11.29pm GMT
11.24pm GMT11.24pm GMT
23:2423:24
More from Guardian reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome;More from Guardian reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome;
An abuse survivor, Andrew Collins, told me that he believed Pell has said some things in his testimony so far that survivors have wanted to hear, including his acknowledgement that mistakes were made and that the church’s handling of serial abuse was “catastrophic”.An abuse survivor, Andrew Collins, told me that he believed Pell has said some things in his testimony so far that survivors have wanted to hear, including his acknowledgement that mistakes were made and that the church’s handling of serial abuse was “catastrophic”.
But Collins also said he believed that Pell has not yet faced the very tough questioning survivors still anticipate that would get into the “nitty gritty” of what Pell did, and did not, know.But Collins also said he believed that Pell has not yet faced the very tough questioning survivors still anticipate that would get into the “nitty gritty” of what Pell did, and did not, know.
The toughest questions would come from solicitors working for survivors, he said, though he said he believed the solicitor asking questions now - Gail Furness - was tough.The toughest questions would come from solicitors working for survivors, he said, though he said he believed the solicitor asking questions now - Gail Furness - was tough.
“My solicitor said ‘you don’t fuck with her,’” he said with a chuckle. Collins was abused on four occasions by four different men, when he was 7, 11, 12, and 14-years-old. He was abused by a teacher, a priest and two different monks.“My solicitor said ‘you don’t fuck with her,’” he said with a chuckle. Collins was abused on four occasions by four different men, when he was 7, 11, 12, and 14-years-old. He was abused by a teacher, a priest and two different monks.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.25pm GMTat 11.25pm GMT
11.19pm GMT11.19pm GMT
23:1923:19
It seems many people around Pell knew of Day’s abusing children, but this news did not reach Pell.It seems many people around Pell knew of Day’s abusing children, but this news did not reach Pell.
Furness; “Now, Father Dan Torpy has given evidence in a private hearing that when he was an assistant priest at Mildura, he became aware that a group of Mildura parents had complained to Bishop [James] O’Collins about the activities of Day. Now, I think you’ve indicated you knew Father Torpy at this time?Furness; “Now, Father Dan Torpy has given evidence in a private hearing that when he was an assistant priest at Mildura, he became aware that a group of Mildura parents had complained to Bishop [James] O’Collins about the activities of Day. Now, I think you’ve indicated you knew Father Torpy at this time?
Pell: “I did.”Pell: “I did.”
Furness: “Did Father Torpy tell you any of what I have just read to you from his private hearing?”Furness: “Did Father Torpy tell you any of what I have just read to you from his private hearing?”
Pell: “No, I’ve got no such recollection.”Pell: “No, I’ve got no such recollection.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.20pm GMTat 11.20pm GMT
11.16pm GMT11.16pm GMT
23:1623:16
Leonie Sheedy, who runs the Care Leavers Australia Network for survivors of abuse in orphanages and foster care, says she is growing frustrated by what she believes are non-responses by Pell to key questions.Leonie Sheedy, who runs the Care Leavers Australia Network for survivors of abuse in orphanages and foster care, says she is growing frustrated by what she believes are non-responses by Pell to key questions.
“He is a master of not answering the questions,” she tells me.“He is a master of not answering the questions,” she tells me.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.17pm GMTat 11.17pm GMT
11.13pm GMT11.13pm GMT
23:1323:13
Furness is now highlighting a letter of complaint about Day’s conduct which was sent to the Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, who Pell worked with closely.Furness is now highlighting a letter of complaint about Day’s conduct which was sent to the Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, who Pell worked with closely.
The letter says;The letter says;
“We the authors of this letter wish to bring to your notice the behaviour of Monsignor Day the parish priest at Mildura. Apparently two months ago as the result of a complaint by a parent of one of the pupils at St Joseph’s College, investigations by both the undersigned revealed widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13 years.“We the authors of this letter wish to bring to your notice the behaviour of Monsignor Day the parish priest at Mildura. Apparently two months ago as the result of a complaint by a parent of one of the pupils at St Joseph’s College, investigations by both the undersigned revealed widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13 years.
Pell says just because the letter, signed by several people, had been sent to Mulkearns, the commission should not draw conclusions from it about how many people knew about the abuse.Pell says just because the letter, signed by several people, had been sent to Mulkearns, the commission should not draw conclusions from it about how many people knew about the abuse.
Furness: “Well, with respect, Cardinal, there are a number of conclusions, I suggest to you, that can be drawn. Firstly, in relation to the seven people who are mentioned in that document as having been abused?”Furness: “Well, with respect, Cardinal, there are a number of conclusions, I suggest to you, that can be drawn. Firstly, in relation to the seven people who are mentioned in that document as having been abused?”
Pell: “I certainly accept that.”Pell: “I certainly accept that.”
Furness: “And the conclusions that the authors drew of widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13years is an alarming conclusion, isn’t it?”Furness: “And the conclusions that the authors drew of widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13years is an alarming conclusion, isn’t it?”
Pell: “Of course it’s alarming.”Pell: “Of course it’s alarming.”
11.07pm GMT11.07pm GMT
23:0723:07
The commission is hearing about John Howden, a teacher who tried to highlight Day’s abusing to the then Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.The commission is hearing about John Howden, a teacher who tried to highlight Day’s abusing to the then Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.
Furness: “It seemed by now, that is late January 1972, quite a few people seemed to know of or have suspicions of Monsignor Day’s conduct.”Furness: “It seemed by now, that is late January 1972, quite a few people seemed to know of or have suspicions of Monsignor Day’s conduct.”
Pell: “Especially people in and around Mildura.”Pell: “Especially people in and around Mildura.”
Furness: “Yes, but also people who you had contact with in Swan Hill? Isn’t that right?”Furness: “Yes, but also people who you had contact with in Swan Hill? Isn’t that right?”
Pell: Not many at all. Those long distances mean that people from those different centres don’t get together too frequently.”Pell: Not many at all. Those long distances mean that people from those different centres don’t get together too frequently.”
10.57pm GMT10.57pm GMT
22:5722:57
Questioning resumesQuestioning resumes
We’re off again and questioning is continuing about what Pell knew of the abusing of Monsignor John Day.We’re off again and questioning is continuing about what Pell knew of the abusing of Monsignor John Day.
Pell is given a statement from Father Gerald Baldock in which Baldock says 1967 or 68, he started to hear innuendo about Monsignor Day having “a love for young boys and that he would take them on trips”.Pell is given a statement from Father Gerald Baldock in which Baldock says 1967 or 68, he started to hear innuendo about Monsignor Day having “a love for young boys and that he would take them on trips”.
Furness: “Did anyone else, to your recollection, tell you anything similar about Monsignor Day, that is, the love for young boys and taking them on trips?Furness: “Did anyone else, to your recollection, tell you anything similar about Monsignor Day, that is, the love for young boys and taking them on trips?
Pell: “Are you mentioning any particular period or at any stage?”Pell: “Are you mentioning any particular period or at any stage?”
Furness: “At any stage?”Furness: “At any stage?”
Pell: “I hadn’t heard of the trips to mention. I don’t recall that.”Pell: “I hadn’t heard of the trips to mention. I don’t recall that.”
Furness: “But you’d heard the love for young boys?”Furness: “But you’d heard the love for young boys?”
Pell: “Well, I was aware of ... general gossip. I very rarely indulged in any such discussions. The points were made to me. I would listen and say - but there wasn’t much discussion, certainly in our presbytery, or in any presbytery in which I lived, on these topics.Pell: “Well, I was aware of ... general gossip. I very rarely indulged in any such discussions. The points were made to me. I would listen and say - but there wasn’t much discussion, certainly in our presbytery, or in any presbytery in which I lived, on these topics.
Furness: “But there clearly was in relation to Day. You’ve given evidence to that effect already, Cardinal?”Furness: “But there clearly was in relation to Day. You’ve given evidence to that effect already, Cardinal?”
Pell: “I’ve given evidence that we were aware of the problem, that we talked about it, but it was not gossiped about extensively.”Pell: “I’ve given evidence that we were aware of the problem, that we talked about it, but it was not gossiped about extensively.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.08pm GMTat 11.08pm GMT
10.50pm GMT10.50pm GMT
22:5022:50
Not everyone who was a victim of abuse within the Diocese of Ballarat could make it to Rome. A group of them have instead gathered together at the Ballarat Town Hall to watch the evidence unfold.Not everyone who was a victim of abuse within the Diocese of Ballarat could make it to Rome. A group of them have instead gathered together at the Ballarat Town Hall to watch the evidence unfold.
Murmurs and groans in the Ballarat Town Hall as survivors hear Cardinal Pell say he can't remember certain complaints about physical abuseMurmurs and groans in the Ballarat Town Hall as survivors hear Cardinal Pell say he can't remember certain complaints about physical abuse
"Trench Room" at Ballarat Town Hall where more than 60 people are listening to #Pell testimony from #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/YoqzwnAasI"Trench Room" at Ballarat Town Hall where more than 60 people are listening to #Pell testimony from #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/YoqzwnAasI
There's scoffing and chuckling here in Ballarat every time Cardinal Pell says something the crowd disagrees with @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalCommThere's scoffing and chuckling here in Ballarat every time Cardinal Pell says something the crowd disagrees with @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm
10.35pm GMT10.35pm GMT
22:3522:35
Morning adjournmentMorning adjournment
The commission is taking a short break in the evidence.The commission is taking a short break in the evidence.
To recap this morning, Cardinal George Pell has acknowledged that the way notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was moved between parishes rather than reported to police was a “catastrophe” that allowed him to continue to abuse children. However, Pell has consistently denied knowing that Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked alongside him.To recap this morning, Cardinal George Pell has acknowledged that the way notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was moved between parishes rather than reported to police was a “catastrophe” that allowed him to continue to abuse children. However, Pell has consistently denied knowing that Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked alongside him.
Pell has also acknowledged he heard rumours that Monsignor John Day was abusing children, but that in those days, the church was “strongly inclined” to accept denials of abuse by those accused of it.Pell has also acknowledged he heard rumours that Monsignor John Day was abusing children, but that in those days, the church was “strongly inclined” to accept denials of abuse by those accused of it.
Pell told the commission he knew “a wonderful woman in Mildura” who insisted that Day was innocent.Pell told the commission he knew “a wonderful woman in Mildura” who insisted that Day was innocent.
“And I remember being impressed by that,” Pell said.“And I remember being impressed by that,” Pell said.
Day is one of Australia’s worst pedophiles.Day is one of Australia’s worst pedophiles.
Pell also acknowledged there had been wrongdoing at the hands of the church.Pell also acknowledged there had been wrongdoing at the hands of the church.
“The church has made enormous mistakes, and it is working to remedy those. But the church in many places has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”“The church has made enormous mistakes, and it is working to remedy those. But the church in many places has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
Too many claims of child sexual abuse were dismissed in “scandalous circumstances”.Too many claims of child sexual abuse were dismissed in “scandalous circumstances”.
“There were very very plausible allegations made by plausible people that were not followed up sufficiently. The instinct was more to protect the institution, the community of the church from shame.”“There were very very plausible allegations made by plausible people that were not followed up sufficiently. The instinct was more to protect the institution, the community of the church from shame.”
The church also excessively believed abusers could be cured through psychological help, Pell said. This was the case when it came to Ridsdale, who Pell said was given “chance after chance”.The church also excessively believed abusers could be cured through psychological help, Pell said. This was the case when it came to Ridsdale, who Pell said was given “chance after chance”.
The hearings will continue shortly. Pell will give evidence for about four hours per day over the next few days.The hearings will continue shortly. Pell will give evidence for about four hours per day over the next few days.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.39pm GMTat 10.39pm GMT