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Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live
(35 minutes later)
11.07pm GMT
23:07
The commission is hearing about John Howden, a teacher who tried to highlight Day’s abusing to the then Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.
Furness: “It seemed by now, that is late January 1972, quite a few people seemed to know of or have suspicions of Monsignor Day’s conduct.”
Pell: “Especially people in and around Mildura.”
Furness: “Yes, but also people who you had contact with in Swan Hill? Isn’t that right?”
Pell: Not many at all. Those long distances mean that people from those different centres don’t get together too frequently.”
10.57pm GMT
22:57
Questioning resumes
We’re off again and questioning is continuing about what Pell knew of the abusing of Monsignor John Day.
Pell is given a statement from Father Gerald Baldock in which Baldock says 1967 or 68, he started to hear innuendo about Monsignor Day having “a love for young boys and that he would take them on trips”.
Furness: “Did anyone else, to your recollection, tell you anything similar about Monsignor Day, that is, the love for young boys and taking them on trips?
Pell: “Are you mentioning any particular period or at any stage?”
Furness: “At any stage?”
Pell: “I hadn’t heard of the trips to mention. I don’t recall that.”
Furness: “But you’d heard the love for young boys?”
Pell: “Well, I was aware of ... general gossip. I very rarely indulged in any such discussions. The points were made to me. I would listen and say - but there wasn’t much discussion, certainly in our presbytery, or in any presbytery in which I lived, on these topics.
Furness: “But there clearly was in relation to Day. You’ve given evidence to that effect already, Cardinal?”
Pell: “I’ve given evidence that we were aware of the problem, that we talked about it, but it was not gossiped about extensively.”
Updated
at 11.08pm GMT
10.50pm GMT
22:50
Not everyone who was a victim of abuse within the Diocese of Ballarat could make it to Rome. A group of them have instead gathered together at the Ballarat Town Hall to watch the evidence unfold.
Murmurs and groans in the Ballarat Town Hall as survivors hear Cardinal Pell say he can't remember certain complaints about physical abuse
"Trench Room" at Ballarat Town Hall where more than 60 people are listening to #Pell testimony from #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/YoqzwnAasI
There's scoffing and chuckling here in Ballarat every time Cardinal Pell says something the crowd disagrees with @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm
10.35pm GMT
22:35
Morning adjournment
The commission is taking a short break in the evidence.
To recap this morning, Cardinal George Pell has acknowledged that the way notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was moved between parishes rather than reported to police was a “catastrophe” that allowed him to continue to abuse children. However, Pell has consistently denied knowing that Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked alongside him.
Pell has also acknowledged he heard rumours that Monsignor John Day was abusing children, but that in those days, the church was “strongly inclined” to accept denials of abuse by those accused of it.
Pell told the commission he knew “a wonderful woman in Mildura” who insisted that Day was innocent.
“And I remember being impressed by that,” Pell said.
Day is one of Australia’s worst pedophiles.
Pell also acknowledged there had been wrongdoing at the hands of the church.
“The church has made enormous mistakes, and it is working to remedy those. But the church in many places has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
Too many claims of child sexual abuse were dismissed in “scandalous circumstances”.
“There were very very plausible allegations made by plausible people that were not followed up sufficiently. The instinct was more to protect the institution, the community of the church from shame.”
The church also excessively believed abusers could be cured through psychological help, Pell said. This was the case when it came to Ridsdale, who Pell said was given “chance after chance”.
The hearings will continue shortly. Pell will give evidence for about four hours per day over the next few days.
Updated
at 10.39pm GMT
10.25pm GMT10.25pm GMT
22:2522:25
Another survivor of child sexual abuse in Ballarat is Stephen Woods. He’s in the room with Pell and is tweeting his observations here.Another survivor of child sexual abuse in Ballarat is Stephen Woods. He’s in the room with Pell and is tweeting his observations here.
This could be explosive https://t.co/bjA8GgjDvZThis could be explosive https://t.co/bjA8GgjDvZ
10.23pm GMT10.23pm GMT
22:2322:23
Furness is now taking Pell through a list of religious figures within the Diocese of Ballarat who were abusing children while Pell served there, and whether he knew of their abusing or rumours of their abusing.Furness is now taking Pell through a list of religious figures within the Diocese of Ballarat who were abusing children while Pell served there, and whether he knew of their abusing or rumours of their abusing.
“I must say in those days, if a priest denied such activity, I was very strongly inclined to accept the denial,” Pell says.“I must say in those days, if a priest denied such activity, I was very strongly inclined to accept the denial,” Pell says.
“I – this is over 40 years ago. I have had almost no close connection with [abuser Monsignor John] Day. I can’t remember exactly what I heard when.”“I – this is over 40 years ago. I have had almost no close connection with [abuser Monsignor John] Day. I can’t remember exactly what I heard when.”
Furness: “Now, I appreciate the period of time that’s passed, Cardinal, but it’s quite a remarkable thing to have heard about a fellow priest in 1971, isn’t it?Furness: “Now, I appreciate the period of time that’s passed, Cardinal, but it’s quite a remarkable thing to have heard about a fellow priest in 1971, isn’t it?
Pell: “It was a great – a great scandal.”Pell: “It was a great – a great scandal.”
UpdatedUpdated
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10.16pm GMT10.16pm GMT
22:1622:16
Abuse survivor, David Ridsdale, has been in contact with me. He is at the Hotel Quirinale watching the evidence unfold. David Ridsdale was a victim of Gerald Ridsdale, his uncle. During a previous commission hearing, David Ridsdale told the commission that he told Pell he was being abused, and that Pell responded by encouraging him to keep quiet.Abuse survivor, David Ridsdale, has been in contact with me. He is at the Hotel Quirinale watching the evidence unfold. David Ridsdale was a victim of Gerald Ridsdale, his uncle. During a previous commission hearing, David Ridsdale told the commission that he told Pell he was being abused, and that Pell responded by encouraging him to keep quiet.
Pell has denied ever knowing that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked with him at Ballarat.Pell has denied ever knowing that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked with him at Ballarat.
David Ridsdale tells me;David Ridsdale tells me;
I am 10 metres away from Cardinal George Pell. As are the Fosters [Anthony and Chrissie Foster, whose daughters Emma and Katie suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a priest over several years].I am 10 metres away from Cardinal George Pell. As are the Fosters [Anthony and Chrissie Foster, whose daughters Emma and Katie suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a priest over several years].
The majority here in the room are the world’s media. The room is packed. Survivors are together and respectful as usual. We came in through the back door, with full security, which was interesting.The majority here in the room are the world’s media. The room is packed. Survivors are together and respectful as usual. We came in through the back door, with full security, which was interesting.
UpdatedUpdated
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10.08pm GMT10.08pm GMT
22:0822:08
A catastrophe for the churchA catastrophe for the church
The topic has now turned to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children for two decades. He was allowed to continue abusing, the commission has previously heard, because instead of going to police, senior religious officials simply moved him between parishes. However, Pell has said he did not know Ridsdale was abusing at the time.The topic has now turned to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children for two decades. He was allowed to continue abusing, the commission has previously heard, because instead of going to police, senior religious officials simply moved him between parishes. However, Pell has said he did not know Ridsdale was abusing at the time.
A few of Ridsdales victims are in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. Pell told the commission:A few of Ridsdales victims are in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. Pell told the commission:
I have just re-read the file of Ridsdale. The priest. Ex-priest. And the way he was dealt with was a catastrophe. A catastrophe for the victims and a catastrophe for the church. If effective action had been taken earlier, an enormous amount of suffering would’ve been avoided.I have just re-read the file of Ridsdale. The priest. Ex-priest. And the way he was dealt with was a catastrophe. A catastrophe for the victims and a catastrophe for the church. If effective action had been taken earlier, an enormous amount of suffering would’ve been avoided.
He – he was given chance after chance after chance, shifted him around and initially at least, trusted excessively in the possible benefits of psychological help.He – he was given chance after chance after chance, shifted him around and initially at least, trusted excessively in the possible benefits of psychological help.
UpdatedUpdated
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10.03pm GMT10.03pm GMT
22:0322:03
Chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, appears to have grown frustrated with Pell. Furness had been asking Pell if he was aware of any priests or religious figures being sent away for treatment for their abusing of children.Chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, appears to have grown frustrated with Pell. Furness had been asking Pell if he was aware of any priests or religious figures being sent away for treatment for their abusing of children.
Pell told Furness: “If a priest is engaging in sexual behaviour, either heterosexually or homosexually, that’s incompatible with his continuing as a priest and it’s possible that people were sent off – once again, I’d have to hear who [was sent off] to reply specifically.”Pell told Furness: “If a priest is engaging in sexual behaviour, either heterosexually or homosexually, that’s incompatible with his continuing as a priest and it’s possible that people were sent off – once again, I’d have to hear who [was sent off] to reply specifically.”
McClellan interjected: “All that counsel is asking you for are the names of any priests you can remember who were sent off for treatment. What is your recollection? What do you recall?”McClellan interjected: “All that counsel is asking you for are the names of any priests you can remember who were sent off for treatment. What is your recollection? What do you recall?”
Pell is pressed on whether he was aware Father Paul David Ryan was sent off for treatment.Pell is pressed on whether he was aware Father Paul David Ryan was sent off for treatment.
“I’m not sure that Ryan was – I’m not well versed on Ryan. I didn’t have much to do with his story,” Pell replies.“I’m not sure that Ryan was – I’m not well versed on Ryan. I didn’t have much to do with his story,” Pell replies.
UpdatedUpdated
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9.57pm GMT9.57pm GMT
21:5721:57
From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner:From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner:
Just a point on the issue of the church teaching that was raised. The Guardian reported the story a few weeks ago.Just a point on the issue of the church teaching that was raised. The Guardian reported the story a few weeks ago.
It was followed by a statement by the Vatican commission examining church policy on abuse, which said it was a matter of moral responsibility to report abuse to authorities, whether it was legally required or not.It was followed by a statement by the Vatican commission examining church policy on abuse, which said it was a matter of moral responsibility to report abuse to authorities, whether it was legally required or not.
But the Vatican’s official policy, as Pell stated it, is that the church needs to follow “the law of the land”. It bears remembering that not all countries compel clergy to report suspected cases of sexual abuse to civil authorities. Would have been good to have a follow-up from Furness on that question.But the Vatican’s official policy, as Pell stated it, is that the church needs to follow “the law of the land”. It bears remembering that not all countries compel clergy to report suspected cases of sexual abuse to civil authorities. Would have been good to have a follow-up from Furness on that question.
UpdatedUpdated
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9.55pm GMT9.55pm GMT
21:5521:55
Abuse complaints were not followed-up sufficiently, Pell saysAbuse complaints were not followed-up sufficiently, Pell says
Furness puts it to Pell that the general attitude of the church to disclosures of child sexual abuse in the 1980s and earlier was “generally to not believe the child”.Furness puts it to Pell that the general attitude of the church to disclosures of child sexual abuse in the 1980s and earlier was “generally to not believe the child”.
“Do you accept that?,” she asks Pell.“Do you accept that?,” she asks Pell.
Pell: “I think that ... I would now say that that is an over-statement but it certainly was much, much more difficult for the child to be believed then. The predisposition was not to believe.Pell: “I think that ... I would now say that that is an over-statement but it certainly was much, much more difficult for the child to be believed then. The predisposition was not to believe.
Furness: “And the predisposition was also to be dismissive of those complaints?”Furness: “And the predisposition was also to be dismissive of those complaints?”
Pell: “If they were not presented clearly. But it would vary from person to person and there was never any suggestion that these accusations should be rejected out of hand.”Pell: “If they were not presented clearly. But it would vary from person to person and there was never any suggestion that these accusations should be rejected out of hand.”
UpdatedUpdated
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9.50pm GMT9.50pm GMT
21:5021:50
More from Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent:More from Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent:
The Verdi Room looks like an average banquet room, with three large golden chandeliers hanging from the ceiling and mint green tapestry hanging from panels around the room.The Verdi Room looks like an average banquet room, with three large golden chandeliers hanging from the ceiling and mint green tapestry hanging from panels around the room.
There are about 12 rows of seats, 12 seats wide, and an aisle midway through. The survivors - about 15 of them, along with some support - are sitting near the front but on the opposite side of Pell.There are about 12 rows of seats, 12 seats wide, and an aisle midway through. The survivors - about 15 of them, along with some support - are sitting near the front but on the opposite side of Pell.
There are also priests here and journalists are filling the seats near the back of the room. All eyes are fixed on Pell and the big screen in front of us, where we can see the proceedings and questioning from Australia.There are also priests here and journalists are filling the seats near the back of the room. All eyes are fixed on Pell and the big screen in front of us, where we can see the proceedings and questioning from Australia.
UpdatedUpdated
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9.49pm GMT9.49pm GMT
21:4921:49
Furness asks Pell about complaints about “problems” within the schools.Furness asks Pell about complaints about “problems” within the schools.
Pell: “Well, it’s a long time ago but I can’t remember such complaints and normally they would have been addressed to the education office not to the vicar. I can’t remember any such examples but my memory might be playing me false.”Pell: “Well, it’s a long time ago but I can’t remember such complaints and normally they would have been addressed to the education office not to the vicar. I can’t remember any such examples but my memory might be playing me false.”
Furness: “Why might your memory be playing you false?”Furness: “Why might your memory be playing you false?”
Pell: “Because I don’t have perfect recall.”Pell: “Because I don’t have perfect recall.”
Furness: “So it may have happened but you can’t remember now. That is the effect of what you’re saying?”Furness: “So it may have happened but you can’t remember now. That is the effect of what you’re saying?”
Pell: “No, I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I don’t remember any such thing happening and therefore I don’t believe it did, but my memory is sometimes fallible.”Pell: “No, I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I don’t remember any such thing happening and therefore I don’t believe it did, but my memory is sometimes fallible.”
UpdatedUpdated
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9.42pm GMT9.42pm GMT
21:4221:42
The commission is now hearing about Pell’s history in Ballarat. He was born in Ballarat, the commission hears, and and educated at St Patrick’s College. He was good at sport, and his family was quite well known in Ballarat because they ran a local hotel.The commission is now hearing about Pell’s history in Ballarat. He was born in Ballarat, the commission hears, and and educated at St Patrick’s College. He was good at sport, and his family was quite well known in Ballarat because they ran a local hotel.
Furness suggested Pell was identified early on as a prospective leader of the church. He went on to study in Rome.Furness suggested Pell was identified early on as a prospective leader of the church. He went on to study in Rome.
He then returned to Ballarat and held various positions including as an assistant priest. He took an interest in child education, obtained a master’s in education in the early 1980s. His first education position in Ballarat was as episcopal vicar for education in 1973.He then returned to Ballarat and held various positions including as an assistant priest. He took an interest in child education, obtained a master’s in education in the early 1980s. His first education position in Ballarat was as episcopal vicar for education in 1973.
Furness: “You also, as I understand it, described the role as the essential link between the bishop, priests, parents, teachers and students. That’s how you saw the role, isn’t it?”Furness: “You also, as I understand it, described the role as the essential link between the bishop, priests, parents, teachers and students. That’s how you saw the role, isn’t it?”
Pell: “I would be interested to see where I said that. I think it somewhat overstates my role. I was not the director of education.”Pell: “I would be interested to see where I said that. I think it somewhat overstates my role. I was not the director of education.”
Furness points Pell to a document written by Pell in September 1984, where he describes his role as an “essential link between bishop, priest, parents, teachers and students”.Furness points Pell to a document written by Pell in September 1984, where he describes his role as an “essential link between bishop, priest, parents, teachers and students”.
Pell replies: “Yes, I do see what is there.”Pell replies: “Yes, I do see what is there.”
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