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Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live
Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – live
(35 minutes later)
10.25pm GMT
22:25
Another survivor of child sexual abuse in Ballarat is Stephen Woods. He’s in the room with Pell and is tweeting his observations here.
This could be explosive https://t.co/bjA8GgjDvZ
10.23pm GMT
22:23
Furness is now taking Pell through a list of religious figures within the Diocese of Ballarat who were abusing children while Pell served there, and whether he knew of their abusing or rumours of their abusing.
“I must say in those days, if a priest denied such activity, I was very strongly inclined to accept the denial,” Pell says.
“I – this is over 40 years ago. I have had almost no close connection with [abuser Monsignor John] Day. I can’t remember exactly what I heard when.”
Furness: “Now, I appreciate the period of time that’s passed, Cardinal, but it’s quite a remarkable thing to have heard about a fellow priest in 1971, isn’t it?
Pell: “It was a great – a great scandal.”
Updated
at 10.25pm GMT
10.16pm GMT
22:16
Abuse survivor, David Ridsdale, has been in contact with me. He is at the Hotel Quirinale watching the evidence unfold. David Ridsdale was a victim of Gerald Ridsdale, his uncle. During a previous commission hearing, David Ridsdale told the commission that he told Pell he was being abused, and that Pell responded by encouraging him to keep quiet.
Pell has denied ever knowing that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked with him at Ballarat.
David Ridsdale tells me;
I am 10 metres away from Cardinal George Pell. As are the Fosters [Anthony and Chrissie Foster, whose daughters Emma and Katie suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a priest over several years].
The majority here in the room are the world’s media. The room is packed. Survivors are together and respectful as usual. We came in through the back door, with full security, which was interesting.
Updated
at 10.27pm GMT
10.08pm GMT
22:08
A catastrophe for the church
The topic has now turned to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children for two decades. He was allowed to continue abusing, the commission has previously heard, because instead of going to police, senior religious officials simply moved him between parishes. However, Pell has said he did not know Ridsdale was abusing at the time.
A few of Ridsdales victims are in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. Pell told the commission:
I have just re-read the file of Ridsdale. The priest. Ex-priest. And the way he was dealt with was a catastrophe. A catastrophe for the victims and a catastrophe for the church. If effective action had been taken earlier, an enormous amount of suffering would’ve been avoided.
He – he was given chance after chance after chance, shifted him around and initially at least, trusted excessively in the possible benefits of psychological help.
Updated
at 10.28pm GMT
10.03pm GMT
22:03
Chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, appears to have grown frustrated with Pell. Furness had been asking Pell if he was aware of any priests or religious figures being sent away for treatment for their abusing of children.
Pell told Furness: “If a priest is engaging in sexual behaviour, either heterosexually or homosexually, that’s incompatible with his continuing as a priest and it’s possible that people were sent off – once again, I’d have to hear who [was sent off] to reply specifically.”
McClellan interjected: “All that counsel is asking you for are the names of any priests you can remember who were sent off for treatment. What is your recollection? What do you recall?”
Pell is pressed on whether he was aware Father Paul David Ryan was sent off for treatment.
“I’m not sure that Ryan was – I’m not well versed on Ryan. I didn’t have much to do with his story,” Pell replies.
Updated
at 10.28pm GMT
9.57pm GMT
9.57pm GMT
21:57
21:57
From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner;
From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner:
Just a point on the issue of the church teaching that was raised. The Guardian reported the story a few weeks ago.
Just a point on the issue of the church teaching that was raised. The Guardian reported the story a few weeks ago.
It was followed by a statement by the Vatican commission examining church policy on abuse, which said it was a matter of moral responsibility to report abuse to authorities, whether it was legally required or not.
It was followed by a statement by the Vatican commission examining church policy on abuse, which said it was a matter of moral responsibility to report abuse to authorities, whether it was legally required or not.
But the Vatican’s official policy, as Pell stated it, is that the church needs to follow “the law of the land”. It bears remembering that not all countries compel clergy to report suspected cases of sexual abuse to civil authorities. Would have been good to have a follow-up from Furness on that question.
But the Vatican’s official policy, as Pell stated it, is that the church needs to follow “the law of the land”. It bears remembering that not all countries compel clergy to report suspected cases of sexual abuse to civil authorities. Would have been good to have a follow-up from Furness on that question.
Updated
at 10.29pm GMT
9.55pm GMT
9.55pm GMT
21:55
21:55
Abuse complaints were not followed-up sufficiently, Pell says
Abuse complaints were not followed-up sufficiently, Pell says
Furness puts it to Pell that the general attitude of the church to disclosures of child sexual abuse in the 1980s and earlier was “generally to not believe the child”.
Furness puts it to Pell that the general attitude of the church to disclosures of child sexual abuse in the 1980s and earlier was “generally to not believe the child”.
“Do you accept that?,” she asks Pell.
“Do you accept that?,” she asks Pell.
Pell: “I think that- no, I - that - I would now say that that is an over-statement but it certainly was much, much more difficult for the child to be believed then. The predisposition was not to believe.
Pell: “I think that ... I would now say that that is an over-statement but it certainly was much, much more difficult for the child to be believed then. The predisposition was not to believe.
Furness: “And the predisposition was also to be dismissive of those complaints?”
Furness: “And the predisposition was also to be dismissive of those complaints?”
Pell: “If they were not presented clearly. But it would vary from person to person and there was never any suggestion that these accusations should be rejected out of hand.”
Pell: “If they were not presented clearly. But it would vary from person to person and there was never any suggestion that these accusations should be rejected out of hand.”
Updated
at 10.10pm GMT
9.50pm GMT
9.50pm GMT
21:50
21:50
More from Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent ;
More from Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent:
The Verdi Room looks like an average banquet room, with three large golden chandeliers hanging from the ceiling and mint green tapestry hanging from panels around the room.
The Verdi Room looks like an average banquet room, with three large golden chandeliers hanging from the ceiling and mint green tapestry hanging from panels around the room.
There are about 12 rows of seats, 12 seats wide, and an aisle midway through. The survivors - about 15 of them, along with some support - are sitting nearly the front but on the opposite side of Pell.
There are about 12 rows of seats, 12 seats wide, and an aisle midway through. The survivors - about 15 of them, along with some support - are sitting near the front but on the opposite side of Pell.
There are also priests here and journalists are filling the seats near the back of the room.All eyes are fixed on Pell and the big screen in front of us, where we can see the proceedings and questioning from Australia.
There are also priests here and journalists are filling the seats near the back of the room. All eyes are fixed on Pell and the big screen in front of us, where we can see the proceedings and questioning from Australia.
Updated
at 10.12pm GMT
9.49pm GMT
9.49pm GMT
21:49
21:49
Furness asks Pell about complaints about “problems” within the schools.
Furness asks Pell about complaints about “problems” within the schools.
Pell, “Well, it’s a long time ago but I can’t remember such complaints and normally they would have been addressed to the education office not to the vicar. I can’t remember any such examples but my memory might be playing me false.”
Pell: “Well, it’s a long time ago but I can’t remember such complaints and normally they would have been addressed to the education office not to the vicar. I can’t remember any such examples but my memory might be playing me false.”
Furness: “Why might your memory be playing you false?”
Furness: “Why might your memory be playing you false?”
Pell: “Because I don’t have perfect recall.”
Pell: “Because I don’t have perfect recall.”
Furness: “So it may have happened but you can’tremember now is. That theeffect of what you’re saying?”
Furness: “So it may have happened but you can’t remember now. That is the effect of what you’re saying?”
Pell: “No, I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I don’t remember any such thing happening and therefore I don’t believe it did but my memory is sometimes fallible.”
Pell: “No, I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I don’t remember any such thing happening and therefore I don’t believe it did, but my memory is sometimes fallible.”
Updated
at 10.14pm GMT
9.42pm GMT
9.42pm GMT
21:42
21:42
The commission is now hearing about Pell’s history in Ballarat. He was born in Ballarat, the commission hears, and and was schooled at St Patrick’s College. He was good at sport, and his family was quite well known in Ballarat because they ran a local hotel.
The commission is now hearing about Pell’s history in Ballarat. He was born in Ballarat, the commission hears, and and educated at St Patrick’s College. He was good at sport, and his family was quite well known in Ballarat because they ran a local hotel.
Furness suggested that Pell was identified early on as a prospective leader of the church. He went on to study in Rome.
Furness suggested Pell was identified early on as a prospective leader of the church. He went on to study in Rome.
He then returned to Ballarat and held various positions including as an assistant priest. He took an interest in child education obtained a Masters in education in the early 1980s. His first education position in Ballarat was as episcopal vicar for education in 1973.
He then returned to Ballarat and held various positions including as an assistant priest. He took an interest in child education, obtained a master’s in education in the early 1980s. His first education position in Ballarat was as episcopal vicar for education in 1973.
Furness; “You also, as I understand it, described the role as the essential link between the bishop, priests,parents, teachers and students. That’s how you saw the role, isn’t it?”
Furness: “You also, as I understand it, described the role as the essential link between the bishop, priests, parents, teachers and students. That’s how you saw the role, isn’t it?”
Pell: “I would be interested to see where I said that. I think it somewhat over-states my role. I was not the director of education.”
Pell: “I would be interested to see where I said that. I think it somewhat overstates my role. I was not the director of education.”
Furness points Pell to a document written by Pell in September 20, 1984, where he describes his role an an “essential link between bishop,priest, parents, teachers and students”.
Furness points Pell to a document written by Pell in September 1984, where he describes his role as an “essential link between bishop, priest, parents, teachers and students”.
Pell replies; “Yes, I do see what is there.”
Pell replies: “Yes, I do see what is there.”
Updated
Updated
at 9.44pm GMT
at 10.16pm GMT
9.28pm GMT
21:28
Pell says he is 'not here to defend the indefensible'
Furness is questioning him about the responses of the church to child sexual abuse.
Pell interrupts: “Let me just say this, as an initial clarification, and that is I’m not here to defend the indefensible. The church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those but the church in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
Furness replies: “I wasn’t particularly asking you to, Cardinal.”
Pell: “Thank you.”
Furness: “The question is in relation to the consistency of findings of inquiries in many places in the world in relation to the actions of senior officials in the Catholic Church. Now you’ve said that that is the case, that there has been a consistency of findings in relation to the response of the church?”
Pell: Unfortunately, there’s a lot of truth [to that]. I would also say there are very few countries in the world who have advanced as far as the Catholic Church has in Australia in putting procedures into place nearly 20 years ago. I think that’s a matter of record.”
Updated
at 9.50pm GMT
9.19pm GMT
21:19
Cardinal Pell begins giving evidence
The commission has begun with Pell clarifying his position within the Vatican.
This exchange occurred between Pell and counsel assisting, Gail Furness:
Furness: What is your function as prefect of the secretariat, Cardinal?
Pell: Something equivalent to a Treasurer.
Furness: So the treasurer for the Vatican? Is that right?
Pell: Yes, for the Holy See.
Furness: And is it the case that you have a delegation of some sort to be able to expend funds on behalf of the Vatican or is your remit unlimited?
Pell: My remit is certainly not unlimited. I answer to the council for the economy, an international body of 15 head cardinals and seven lay people. They are something like the university Senate to whom I must answer.
Furness: Now, Cardinal, you’re often described as the number three person in the Vatican. Is that accurate?
Pell: I wouldn’t say it was. People like to make these hypothetical lists. Some people would see the financial affairs of the Vatican as very low on the list.
Furness: How would you describe yourself, Cardinal?
Pell: I wouldn’t get into that game at all. I’m a senior official in the Roman [hierarchy].
Furness: You said some would see the financial affairs of the Vatican as very low, I take it you don’t share that view?
Pell: I think it’s very important that church money is used efficiently, that the donations are used for the running of the church and for the helping of the core, that they’re not wasted.
Pell swears to tell the truth pic.twitter.com/TfZBNTofHd
Updated
at 9.39pm GMT
9.10pm GMT
21:10
Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent reports;
“The Verdi Room at the Hotel Quirinale is almost full - not packed - with journalists, survivors and their supporters, and quite a few priests - and Pell, looking rather sullen, is about to start testifying.
One of the possibly unintended consequences of Pell’s decision to stay here in Rome and testify is that it has brought Rome’s expert Vaticanisti - journalists who closely cover the Roman Catholic Church - out in full force.
Among the survivors is one in a green shirt - he declined to be interviewed by the Guardian because we are not technically allowed to interview survivors inside the Verdi Room - and on the shirt is a picture of young boy, presumably a picture taken at the time that he was being abused. It is a striking image.”
9.00pm GMT
21:00
Waiting for Cardinal George Pell.
On this stormy night in Rome, waiting for #CardinalPell pic.twitter.com/HbuWI6RpMe
8.47pm GMT
20:47
Pell’s sister, Margaret Pell, is in Rome to support her brother.
She spoke to reporters briefly a few hours ago. Asked what Pell was doing, she replied; “He’s resting today, preparing for tonight. He’s praying”.
Asked how he was feeling, she replied; “Well how would you feel?”
Tensions are running high.
According to News Ltd; An Australian TV crew has formally complained to the royal commission as their cameraman was “crash tackled” by security detail as he attempted to film Cardinal George Pell’s backdoor entrance to the hearings.
Shortly after 7pm local time, Cardinal Pell and his entourage were still debating whether to arrive at the front of Hotel Quirinale or the back gardens entrance before electing on the latter.
A security detail of plain clothed police and others were dispatched to the back gates of the hotel’s gardens but were surprised to see a cameraman from SBS Australia there while most of the world press were out front.
Italian Police reviewing Aus TV vision after Pell's heavies strong arm media outside #royalcommission in Rome. pic.twitter.com/ObHOq1uWdd
It’s about 15 minutes now until Pell’s evidence is due to begin. If you have any questions throughout, tweet me @MelissaLDavey and I’ll do my best to answer. You can also follow reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner who is in Rome and at the hearing.
Updated
at 9.04pm GMT
8.39pm GMT
20:39
Stephanie Kirchgaessner has alerted me to this piece by veteran Vatican-watcher, John Allen;
It’s undoubtedly an exaggeration to suggest that the entire nation of Australia will come grinding to a halt next Monday at 8 a.m. local time, when Cardinal George Pell is set to begin giving live video testimony before a Royal Commission examining child sexual abuse scandals.
Still, it sort of feels like that here right now.
Read the full piece here.
Updated
at 8.39pm GMT
1.53am GMT
01:53
Reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner with an observation from Rome:
I think interesting is the difference in the perception of Pell in Australia vs here in Rome, where he is seen as a victim of a witch hunt and viewed quite sympathetically even by critics of the church.
Stephanie interviewed abuse survivor Paul Levey. You can read her piece here.
Paul Levey is one of the abuse survivors from Ballarat now in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. pic.twitter.com/9u7omIKwD4
Updated
at 8.56pm GMT
1.53am GMT
01:53
Here is a piece from David Marr about the questions George Pell must answer over the next few days.
An excerpt;
Cardinal George Pell is bold. Priests have told the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse over and over again that they knew something was going on back then and now regret doing little more than passing the awful news up the line.
They left it to others.
That’s not Pell’s position. He says he knew nothing – nothing while he was a priest in Ballarat about the paedophiles around him and little about these men and their victims in his years as an auxiliary bishop in Melbourne.
He was never in the loop. No one warned him. No one complained to him. He didn’t read that letter or this report. It never came up at meetings. There’s nothing in the minutes. There’s nothing in the files. According to the cardinal, he rose through the ranks in a state of nearly perfect ignorance while – as he now acknowledges with remorse – systematic cover-ups allowed paedophile priests to prey on innocent children.
Read Marr’s full piece here.
1.45am GMT
01:45
Why this appearance by Pell is important
As we wait for the commission to begin, some background about why this appearance by Pell is so pivotal.
Pell has given evidence before the commission twice before. The questions asked of him related to the archdiocese of Melbourne and the way the Catholic church handled and investigated allegations of child sexual abuse via its internal scheme, known as the Melbourne Response. The first time Pell gave his evidence in person, and the second time, in 2015, via videolink, in an appearance plagued by technical difficulties.
This time, things are much different.
Abuse survivor Robert House in Ballarat with a painting by his friend and supporter, James Money. pic.twitter.com/u7AVWYAAyU
A lot more has emerged throughout commission hearings since Pell last appeared and he now has a lot more to answer than just how the archdiocese of Melbourne responded to and investigated allegations of child sexual abuse within its institutions during the period he served as auxiliary bishop.
The previous two Ballarat-focused hearings of the royal commission heard evidence that while he was an assistant priest at Ballarat East from 1973 to 1983, Pell allegedly was involved in moving a notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, between parishes. Pell also worked at the parish during a period when several Catholic priests were later found to have assaulted young boys, the commission heard, raising questions about how, given his senior position, he could not have known. For a time, he lived with Ridsdale.
Ridsdale was not an occasional abuser. This excellent piece by Debi Marshall, published for SBS News, gives a horrific insight into the abuse of children that occurred under Ridsdale’s care.
One of Ridsdale’s victims was his nephew David Ridsdale, who gave evidence at the first of the commission’s Ballarat hearings. He alleged that he told Pell about the abuse he had endured, but Pell encouraged him to keep quiet. Pell has strongly denied the allegations. He has also said he was unaware of abuse occurring within the diocese until after he left.
These allegations and incidents will no doubt be brought up by the royal commission led by Justice Peter McClellan throughout Pell’s hearing, which is expected to go across four days.
What is unlikely to be brought up by the commission is allegations leaked by Victoria police to the media that Pell is himself under investigation for allegations of grooming and molesting children. Pell has vehemently denied the allegations. It is important to know that a royal commission does not have prosecutor powers, or the ability to compel people overseas to give evidence. It can refer matters it believes warrants it to police and at its close provides a comprehensive list of recommendations to governments and institutions to ensure errors of the past are prevented from happening again.
Some more extensive background about the allegations, and the importance of Ballarat, can be found here.
Updated
at 1.52am GMT
1.45am GMT
01:45
Welcome to the Guardian’s live coverage of Cardinal George Pell’s evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse.
Melissa Davey is with you and I’ll be watching the evidence closely and reporting on key moments throughout the day. We’ll also have David Marr providing analysis, reporting from Ben Doherty in Sydney where the royal commission hearing is being held and reporting from Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome, who is with a small group of child sexual abuse survivors who travelled from Australia to watch Pell give evidence in person from the Hotel Quirinale.
The royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse, tasked by the Australian federal government in 2013 to take on the massive job of independently investigating child sexual abuse within churches, foster care organisations, sporting clubs and a range of other institutions throughout Australia, will today once again turn its attention to the diocese of Ballarat and to the archdiocese of Melbourne. More about those case studies in posts to come.
So why is Pell giving evidence from Rome?
Back in May, after new evidence emerged, Pell said he would be willing to fly to Australia to give evidence in person once again. But, days before he was due before the commission in December, his lawyers tendered medical documents to the commission saying he was too unwell to fly. The commission waited until February to see if Pell would have recovered enough to fly, but his lawyers again tendered documents that said he was not. The commission subsequently said he could give evidence via videolink from Rome.
I'm in Ballarat for the #CARoyalCommission, day 1 of part three of the hearings. pic.twitter.com/nHswe1qI8l
The decision prompted a gofundme campaign to send survivors and a support network of psychologists and counsellors to Rome, with more than $200,000 raised in days. Comedian Tim Minchin also released a song calling on Pell to come home and drawing attention to the campaign.
You can tweet your thoughts throughout the morning to me @MelissaLDavey.
