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| Bill Shorten grilled about workplace deals and campaign donations at royal commission – live | Bill Shorten grilled about workplace deals and campaign donations at royal commission – live |
| (2 days later) | |
| 7.31am BST | 7.31am BST |
| 07:31 | 07:31 |
| Until tomorrow young #turcs | Until tomorrow young #turcs |
| Lovely picture, sums it up really. | Lovely picture, sums it up really. |
| So that was a very interesting day, all in all. Let’s walk through carefully what we learned over the past several hours. Under cross examination from counsel assisting, Jeremy Stoljar, here is what Labor leader Bill Shorten told the trade union royal commission on Wednesday: | So that was a very interesting day, all in all. Let’s walk through carefully what we learned over the past several hours. Under cross examination from counsel assisting, Jeremy Stoljar, here is what Labor leader Bill Shorten told the trade union royal commission on Wednesday: |
| There was more, but those were the main points. | There was more, but those were the main points. |
| Because Shorten will be back tomorrow, so will I. | Because Shorten will be back tomorrow, so will I. |
| Thanks for your company today. Do join me then. | Thanks for your company today. Do join me then. |
| 7.08am BST | 7.08am BST |
| 07:08 | 07:08 |
| It being 4pm, today’s hearing has wrapped. Shorten will be back in the box tomorrow because we are nowhere near through with the questions. | It being 4pm, today’s hearing has wrapped. Shorten will be back in the box tomorrow because we are nowhere near through with the questions. |
| I’ll be back shortly with a summation of today. | I’ll be back shortly with a summation of today. |
| 7.05am BST | 7.05am BST |
| 07:05 | 07:05 |
| Stoljar repeats his argument that the commission can’t judge agreements properly if it gets inaccurate stat decs. Shorten says he is then in the same position as the commission then, because he relied on the stat decs too. | Stoljar repeats his argument that the commission can’t judge agreements properly if it gets inaccurate stat decs. Shorten says he is then in the same position as the commission then, because he relied on the stat decs too. |
| 7.01am BST | 7.01am BST |
| 07:01 | 07:01 |
| Stoljar says the AWU stat dec has not been filled out correctly. The result of that is the industrial commission didn’t have the information it needed before stamping the Cleanevent agreement. Shorten acknowledges an absence of fine print disclosure. I see what you are saying. | Stoljar says the AWU stat dec has not been filled out correctly. The result of that is the industrial commission didn’t have the information it needed before stamping the Cleanevent agreement. Shorten acknowledges an absence of fine print disclosure. I see what you are saying. |
| But he returns to the point, the workers voted for this agreement. | But he returns to the point, the workers voted for this agreement. |
| Commissioner Heydon then asks his first question of the day. He wants to know whether AWU officials had to provide him with detailed briefings on agreements, like a cabinet submission, or whether it was an informal process in the AWU. | Commissioner Heydon then asks his first question of the day. He wants to know whether AWU officials had to provide him with detailed briefings on agreements, like a cabinet submission, or whether it was an informal process in the AWU. |
| Shorten says given it is impossible for union secretaries to be across every agreement under negotiation, he imposed a system of checks and balances. There were report backs, but he makes it clear there was a degree of delegation. | Shorten says given it is impossible for union secretaries to be across every agreement under negotiation, he imposed a system of checks and balances. There were report backs, but he makes it clear there was a degree of delegation. |
| Shorten: | Shorten: |
| I can’t pretend to you commissioner that its as rigorous as a cabinet process but there’s a degree of system in it. | I can’t pretend to you commissioner that its as rigorous as a cabinet process but there’s a degree of system in it. |
| Heydon is concerned whether the cleaners knew what they were signing up to. Cleaners are rather low down the social pecking order, he notes. Shorten says organising event cleaners is a difficult process, and that’s why workplace delegates are important and involved. Heydon says so there weren’t meetings and briefings, it was more a process of checking the mood? Shorten says meetings and briefings were likely part of the mix. | Heydon is concerned whether the cleaners knew what they were signing up to. Cleaners are rather low down the social pecking order, he notes. Shorten says organising event cleaners is a difficult process, and that’s why workplace delegates are important and involved. Heydon says so there weren’t meetings and briefings, it was more a process of checking the mood? Shorten says meetings and briefings were likely part of the mix. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.07am BST | at 7.07am BST |
| 6.49am BST | 6.49am BST |
| 06:49 | 06:49 |
| There has been much cross referencing between the company award and the agreement. Shorten is saying he isn’t aware if there was a reduction in casual pay rates along the lines being presented by Stoljar. | There has been much cross referencing between the company award and the agreement. Shorten is saying he isn’t aware if there was a reduction in casual pay rates along the lines being presented by Stoljar. |
| He thinks its strange that Cleanevent employees would have voted in favour of an agreement that dudded them. Shorten says to Stoljar, I’m not saying you are wrong – but his argument is this likely is more complex than it appears. | He thinks its strange that Cleanevent employees would have voted in favour of an agreement that dudded them. Shorten says to Stoljar, I’m not saying you are wrong – but his argument is this likely is more complex than it appears. |
| There is clearly some material from Cleanevent or from another source which goes to an alleged under payment of wages. I haven’t seen that, but both Shorten and Stoljar are referencing it in this period of cross examination and testimony. | There is clearly some material from Cleanevent or from another source which goes to an alleged under payment of wages. I haven’t seen that, but both Shorten and Stoljar are referencing it in this period of cross examination and testimony. |
| 6.38am BST | 6.38am BST |
| 06:38 | 06:38 |
| Stoljar wants to know whether the AWU recommended members endorse the Cleanevent agreement. Shorten thinks so, but he’s not entirely sure. | Stoljar wants to know whether the AWU recommended members endorse the Cleanevent agreement. Shorten thinks so, but he’s not entirely sure. |
| We are now going to the no-disadvantage test process. Statutory declarations are given to the industrial commission in support of workplace agreements. Stoljar says an AWU stat dec on Cleanevent doesn’t reflect the fact that some workers, the casuals, got below award rates of pay. | We are now going to the no-disadvantage test process. Statutory declarations are given to the industrial commission in support of workplace agreements. Stoljar says an AWU stat dec on Cleanevent doesn’t reflect the fact that some workers, the casuals, got below award rates of pay. |
| Shorten says he would have relied on the opinion of the industrial officer who signed off on the stat dec, and he had a process of stress testing. | Shorten says he would have relied on the opinion of the industrial officer who signed off on the stat dec, and he had a process of stress testing. |
| I cannot say I took the ruler over every clause and every proposition. | I cannot say I took the ruler over every clause and every proposition. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 6.46am BST | at 6.46am BST |
| 6.29am BST | 6.29am BST |
| 06:29 | 06:29 |
| Shorten has been given documentation from Cleanevent characterising their attitude to the EBA. There’s also some correspondence from the rival union United Voice, then the LHMU, which withdrew from negotiations. | Shorten has been given documentation from Cleanevent characterising their attitude to the EBA. There’s also some correspondence from the rival union United Voice, then the LHMU, which withdrew from negotiations. |
| While this is going on, the quick quotes quill of the Labor party (justifiably enough) is reminding folks covering #turc today how many times Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey have had to amend the electoral returns. We have made the point already that the disclosure regime is an ass. Indeed it is. | While this is going on, the quick quotes quill of the Labor party (justifiably enough) is reminding folks covering #turc today how many times Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey have had to amend the electoral returns. We have made the point already that the disclosure regime is an ass. Indeed it is. |
| 6.23am BST | 6.23am BST |
| 06:23 | 06:23 |
| And we’re back. Back to Cleanevent and a query about how the agreement passed the no-disadvantage test when casuals were getting below award rates. | And we’re back. Back to Cleanevent and a query about how the agreement passed the no-disadvantage test when casuals were getting below award rates. |
| Shorten says the members vote on agreements. You wouldn’t have an agreement pass the commission if it didn’t pass the no-disadvantage test, he says. Shorten says the AWU’s priority wasn’t actually passing the legal test, its priority was having agreements that were fair and reasonable. | Shorten says the members vote on agreements. You wouldn’t have an agreement pass the commission if it didn’t pass the no-disadvantage test, he says. Shorten says the AWU’s priority wasn’t actually passing the legal test, its priority was having agreements that were fair and reasonable. |
| That’s what motivated us. | That’s what motivated us. |
| Stoljar wants to know if specific discussions took place about how the Cleanevent agreement would pass the no-disadvantage test, given the problem with the rates of pay. I don’t remember, Shorten says. If he had, it wouldn’t have been unusual in working agreements through. | Stoljar wants to know if specific discussions took place about how the Cleanevent agreement would pass the no-disadvantage test, given the problem with the rates of pay. I don’t remember, Shorten says. If he had, it wouldn’t have been unusual in working agreements through. |
| 6.06am BST | 6.06am BST |
| 06:06 | 06:06 |
| Shorten has called for a five minute recess. I think we should all get a cup of tea for a moment. We deserve it. | Shorten has called for a five minute recess. I think we should all get a cup of tea for a moment. We deserve it. |
| 5.59am BST | 5.59am BST |
| 05:59 | 05:59 |
| Unless there’s a smoking gun about to shoot off from behind this evidence, this passage of testimony does underscore the point I made in our opening post today. Payments, yes. Disclosures, yes. | Unless there’s a smoking gun about to shoot off from behind this evidence, this passage of testimony does underscore the point I made in our opening post today. Payments, yes. Disclosures, yes. |
| But I really don’t quite fathom why we’d re-prosecute workplace agreements that were struck under the relevant law and stamped by the regulator. Providing evidence by case studies that the AWU was a tame cat union really doesn’t add anything to the sum of human knowledge. We do know that. That was their pitch to the bosses during this period. This was also a period in Australian history where fashionable people were highly critical about union militancy. | But I really don’t quite fathom why we’d re-prosecute workplace agreements that were struck under the relevant law and stamped by the regulator. Providing evidence by case studies that the AWU was a tame cat union really doesn’t add anything to the sum of human knowledge. We do know that. That was their pitch to the bosses during this period. This was also a period in Australian history where fashionable people were highly critical about union militancy. |
| 5.53am BST | 5.53am BST |
| 05:53 | 05:53 |
| He’s asked about a donation from Cleanevent. Shorten says there was one discussion about a donation. He doesn’t recall when. | He’s asked about a donation from Cleanevent. Shorten says there was one discussion about a donation. He doesn’t recall when. |
| 5.50am BST | 5.50am BST |
| 05:50 | 05:50 |
| Stoljar has tracked back now to Cleanevent and pay rates. We were in this territory just before the lunch break. You might remember Shorten told the counsel assisting not to judge him retrospectively for a process he parted company with. Shorten, with a little help from Commissioner Heydon, has just asked to see the relevant award so he can check whether some of the figures Stoljar is reading out are correct and in context. | Stoljar has tracked back now to Cleanevent and pay rates. We were in this territory just before the lunch break. You might remember Shorten told the counsel assisting not to judge him retrospectively for a process he parted company with. Shorten, with a little help from Commissioner Heydon, has just asked to see the relevant award so he can check whether some of the figures Stoljar is reading out are correct and in context. |
| Shorten tells counsel assisting the 2006 agreement he presided over was never designed to last for nine years. He says Stoljar has to understand the industry he’s talking about in order to understand real world conditions in that industry. Yes there are some award rates that look good but in the real world, but truth is the workers don’t get them. | Shorten tells counsel assisting the 2006 agreement he presided over was never designed to last for nine years. He says Stoljar has to understand the industry he’s talking about in order to understand real world conditions in that industry. Yes there are some award rates that look good but in the real world, but truth is the workers don’t get them. |
| Stoljar, to Shorten. | Stoljar, to Shorten. |
| Q: You are saying the truth of the matter is whatever is negotiated in the award, people don’t get it? | Q: You are saying the truth of the matter is whatever is negotiated in the award, people don’t get it? |
| Shorten says the cleaning industry sees pyramid sub contracting and all kinds of sub optimal practices. He says in the real world, some employers take advantage of their employees. | Shorten says the cleaning industry sees pyramid sub contracting and all kinds of sub optimal practices. He says in the real world, some employers take advantage of their employees. |
| Stoljar asks the witness – so you think the response to poor practice is to strike a sub-optimal EBA? | Stoljar asks the witness – so you think the response to poor practice is to strike a sub-optimal EBA? |
| Shorten: | Shorten: |
| Not at all. That’s not what I’m saying. | Not at all. That’s not what I’m saying. |
| 5.37am BST | 5.37am BST |
| 05:37 | 05:37 |
| Stoljar asks whether it is commonplace for unions to donate staff to campaigns. Shorten says he believes it is. Are these incidents disclosed, Stoljar wonders? You’d have to look at other specific examples, the Labor leader says. | Stoljar asks whether it is commonplace for unions to donate staff to campaigns. Shorten says he believes it is. Are these incidents disclosed, Stoljar wonders? You’d have to look at other specific examples, the Labor leader says. |
| Stoljar wants to know if he’s ever heard of any other example where a company has in essence donated a person to a political campaign. | Stoljar wants to know if he’s ever heard of any other example where a company has in essence donated a person to a political campaign. |
| Shorten: | Shorten: |
| My answer is I don’t know, but I’m sure that companies have contributed resources in dollars or in kind. | My answer is I don’t know, but I’m sure that companies have contributed resources in dollars or in kind. |
| Commissioner Heydon offers Shorten a short break if he wants one. | Commissioner Heydon offers Shorten a short break if he wants one. |
| He notes it can be tiring to be a witness. Shorten declines the offer, for now at least. | He notes it can be tiring to be a witness. Shorten declines the offer, for now at least. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 5.38am BST | at 5.38am BST |