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Ed Miliband questions Lord Freud future over disabled work claims Ed Miliband questions Lord Freud future over disabled work claims
(35 minutes later)
Labour is urging a welfare minister to resign amid reports he suggested people with disabilities could be paid less than the minimum wage.Labour is urging a welfare minister to resign amid reports he suggested people with disabilities could be paid less than the minimum wage.
Ed Miliband said Lord Freud told Tory activists last month some workers were "not worth the full wage".Ed Miliband said Lord Freud told Tory activists last month some workers were "not worth the full wage".
The Labour leader challenged David Cameron to distance himself from the remarks, saying they represented the Conservatives' "worst instincts".The Labour leader challenged David Cameron to distance himself from the remarks, saying they represented the Conservatives' "worst instincts".
Mr Cameron said these "were not the views of anyone in government".Mr Cameron said these "were not the views of anyone in government".
In heated exchanges during Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Cameron said he "did not need lectures from anybody about looking after disabled people" and urged the Labour leader not "to cast aspersions".In heated exchanges during Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Cameron said he "did not need lectures from anybody about looking after disabled people" and urged the Labour leader not "to cast aspersions".
And disabled affairs minister Esther McVey told the BBC that the comments were "wrong" and could not be justified. The comments came during a fringe meeting at the Conservative conference last month when Lord Freud was asked whether it was preferable for someone with a disability, who could not get a job, to be paid less than the minimum wage - and to have their income topped up with benefits - in order to give them the experience of work and boost their self esteem.
The BBC's political editor Nick Robinson said he understood Lord Freud would be asked to apologise and to restate the government's support for the minimum wage or would be asked to step down.
Lord Freud, who has been a minister in the Department for Work and Pensions since 2010, reportedly made the remarks during a fringe meeting about welfare changes at the Conservative Party conference.
'£2 an hour''£2 an hour'
Labour has circulated a transcript of remarks Lord Freud is reported to have made last month. In response to the question, from Conservative councillor David Scott, he reportedly said there "was no system for going below the minimum wage".
In response to a question from Conservative councillor David Scott about opportunities for disabled people in the workplace who are struggling to get a job, he reportedly said there "was no system for going below the minimum wage".
But he added: "Now, there is a small… there is a group, and I know exactly who you mean, where actually as you say they're not worth the full wage and actually I'm going to go and think about that particular issue, whether there is something we can do nationally, and without distorting the whole thing, which actually if someone wants to work for £2 an hour, and it's working can we actually…"But he added: "Now, there is a small… there is a group, and I know exactly who you mean, where actually as you say they're not worth the full wage and actually I'm going to go and think about that particular issue, whether there is something we can do nationally, and without distorting the whole thing, which actually if someone wants to work for £2 an hour, and it's working can we actually…"
The BBC's political editor Nick Robinson said he understood Lord Freud, a former banker who has been a minister in the Department for Work and Pensions since 2010, would be asked to apologise and to restate the government's support for the minimum wage or be asked to step down.
Labour circulated a transcript of remarks Lord Freud is reported to have made last month while a partial recording has also been released.
Raising the issue in Parliament, Mr Miliband said: "These are not the words of someone who ought to be in charge of policy relating to the welfare of disabled people.Raising the issue in Parliament, Mr Miliband said: "These are not the words of someone who ought to be in charge of policy relating to the welfare of disabled people.
"Surely someone holding those views can't possibly stay in his government?""Surely someone holding those views can't possibly stay in his government?"
'Thinking aloud''Thinking aloud'
But Mr Cameron, whose son Ivan died in 2009 after suffering from cerebral palsy and severe epilepsy, said these were not the views of the government.But Mr Cameron, whose son Ivan died in 2009 after suffering from cerebral palsy and severe epilepsy, said these were not the views of the government.
"We pay the minimum wage, we are reforming disability benefits, we want to help disabled people in our country and we want to help more of them into work. And instead of casting aspersions, why does he not get back to talking about the economy.""We pay the minimum wage, we are reforming disability benefits, we want to help disabled people in our country and we want to help more of them into work. And instead of casting aspersions, why does he not get back to talking about the economy."
The BBC's Nick Robinson said it was important to understand the context of the conversation. The BBC's Nick Robinson said it was important to understand the context of the conversation and that Lord Freud was not arguing for a new policy of routinely paying people less than the minimum wage.
Lord Freud, he said, had been asked whether it was better for someone who could not get a job otherwise to be paid less - and have their income topped up by benefits - in order to get into the workplace and help their self-esteem.
He said one interpretation of Lord Freud's comments was that he was "thinking aloud" but suggestions that the minimum wage could be undercut would seem "heartless" and "haunt him".He said one interpretation of Lord Freud's comments was that he was "thinking aloud" but suggestions that the minimum wage could be undercut would seem "heartless" and "haunt him".
Analysis: By Damon Rose, Ouch!
Unemployment for disabled people has remained stubbornly around 50% for over twenty years despite schemes and incentives. It's perhaps understandable that Lord Freud might want to think outside the box to allow desperate disabled people to shine and get a real job with a real (if low) wage which for some may be preferable to remaining at home, isolated, looking forward to a life on benefits.
If disabled people could charge less for their time, they might get a job more easily... but it could also send out unhelpful messages and devalue all disabled workers.
Suggesting that disabled people may not be worthy of what's deemed to be a "minimum" wage is seen by campaigners as unacceptable, as Conservative MP Philip Davies found to his cost in 2011. Equal rights, equal pay are bound up in law and feel right and just.
Lord Freud sounds like he was raising an important debate, but has muddied the waters with what sounds like disrespectful language. And as a minister responsible for controversial welfare reforms, campaigners have been quick to claim it is a troubling insight into how he thinks.
Disabled affairs minister Esther McVey told the BBC that the comments were "wrong" and could not be justified.
A former banker, Lord Freud has been closely involved in the introduction of major benefits changes, such as the replacement of the disability living allowance with the personal independence payment and the rollout of Universal Credit, a consolidated single payment designed to encourage work.A former banker, Lord Freud has been closely involved in the introduction of major benefits changes, such as the replacement of the disability living allowance with the personal independence payment and the rollout of Universal Credit, a consolidated single payment designed to encourage work.
Mr Scott, a councillor in Kent, defended Lord Freud's response, saying there were examples where "the minimum wage precludes a small number of physically or mentally disabled from working".Mr Scott, a councillor in Kent, defended Lord Freud's response, saying there were examples where "the minimum wage precludes a small number of physically or mentally disabled from working".
He suggested the minister "doesn't want to undermine the minimum wage but thinks a system to reward them would help their own well-being by getting them into work".He suggested the minister "doesn't want to undermine the minimum wage but thinks a system to reward them would help their own well-being by getting them into work".