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| Are nude photos of the Dinka art, or exploitation? – your thoughts | Are nude photos of the Dinka art, or exploitation? – your thoughts |
| (about 20 hours later) | |
| A stunning set of photographs of South Sudan's Dinka people, some in the nude, have been made available to buy online for up to $600 each. For our partners on Africa on the Blog this raises some serious questions about consent, the representation of African tribes through art, and how children should be protected. | |
| Ida Horner kicked off the debate asking: "I wonder whether the photographers told their subjects that their images would be published, and sold, and in what form. I am also concerned that the 'subjects', the Dinka tribe in this instance, do not share in the profits. Would they give permission if they knew what would become of their photos?" | |
| Photographers Carol Beckwith and Angela Fisher took the pictures in question. They set up a charitable foundation to preserve African tribal traditions through cultural documentation, which has been "assisting Dinka and other minority group students with secondary school and university education". Carol Beckwith said: | Photographers Carol Beckwith and Angela Fisher took the pictures in question. They set up a charitable foundation to preserve African tribal traditions through cultural documentation, which has been "assisting Dinka and other minority group students with secondary school and university education". Carol Beckwith said: |
| When we get to know and appreciate a group of people, which we share with the world through our books and images, we care about what happens to them. We care deeply about the 150 ethnic groups with whom we have lived and worked – we have dedicated our lives to sharing their powerful beliefs, rituals, lifestyles and cultural traditions with the world at large. | When we get to know and appreciate a group of people, which we share with the world through our books and images, we care about what happens to them. We care deeply about the 150 ethnic groups with whom we have lived and worked – we have dedicated our lives to sharing their powerful beliefs, rituals, lifestyles and cultural traditions with the world at large. |
| We want future generations of Africans to know where they came from and what their grandparents believed. Over 40% of what we have recorded no longer exists, a tragic loss, diminishing the richness and diversity of the human panorama. We hope to leave our archive of the cultural heritage of Africa, 40 years in the making, and still ongoing, to future generations who care about who we are as human beings, where we have come from, and where we are heading". | We want future generations of Africans to know where they came from and what their grandparents believed. Over 40% of what we have recorded no longer exists, a tragic loss, diminishing the richness and diversity of the human panorama. We hope to leave our archive of the cultural heritage of Africa, 40 years in the making, and still ongoing, to future generations who care about who we are as human beings, where we have come from, and where we are heading". |
| So, is it art, or exploitation? Unsurprisingly Africa on the Blog's panel had wide-ranging views, as did you. We decided to round up the key pillars of debate emerging below the line and on Twitter. | So, is it art, or exploitation? Unsurprisingly Africa on the Blog's panel had wide-ranging views, as did you. We decided to round up the key pillars of debate emerging below the line and on Twitter. |
| It's exploitation | It's exploitation |
| I lived in a Dinka village for a year, and towards the end of my stay I told everyone that I would be taking photos on the following Saturday morning if they cared to take part. When Saturday came around, I asked how people wanted to be photographed, and almost everyone wanted their photo taken as a family group in a formal pose in their Sunday best in front of their house. If you bother asking this is what people wanted. Any other photos I have of the more 'exotic' aspects of cattle camps or people covered in ash had to be snatched without permission. Given that the people live a world away from the media world we live in any attempt to explain 'consent' would be untranslateable - which by default means that consent is not given. If one hesitated for a second in front of an adult who was not fully clothed, they would seek to cover themselves. One might undertake charitable works after the photo has been published, but its taking remains an exploitation unless it is specifically in the form that local people chose - and this however beautiful the resulting shot and however evocative of traditions you are sad to see disappear. | I lived in a Dinka village for a year, and towards the end of my stay I told everyone that I would be taking photos on the following Saturday morning if they cared to take part. When Saturday came around, I asked how people wanted to be photographed, and almost everyone wanted their photo taken as a family group in a formal pose in their Sunday best in front of their house. If you bother asking this is what people wanted. Any other photos I have of the more 'exotic' aspects of cattle camps or people covered in ash had to be snatched without permission. Given that the people live a world away from the media world we live in any attempt to explain 'consent' would be untranslateable - which by default means that consent is not given. If one hesitated for a second in front of an adult who was not fully clothed, they would seek to cover themselves. One might undertake charitable works after the photo has been published, but its taking remains an exploitation unless it is specifically in the form that local people chose - and this however beautiful the resulting shot and however evocative of traditions you are sad to see disappear. |
| the Dinka photos don't enable the viewer to relate to them as humans, as ourselves-but as majestic/beautiful/exotic/other @GuardianAfrica | the Dinka photos don't enable the viewer to relate to them as humans, as ourselves-but as majestic/beautiful/exotic/other @GuardianAfrica |
| It's art | It's art |
| These are extraordinary pictures, and I don't believe they are exploitation. They are mythic, and therefore rise above most criticism. A famous book, the Knife and Gun Club, illustrates the drama of a big city emergency department. The book did not exploit inner city residents, but it did violate their privacy. Yet how else was the average American to know the level of violence and tragedy that existed in the inner city. The book did more than all the political speeches about the relationship between violence and poverty to educate people of my generation. Now, because of patient privacy legislation such a book could never be produced. It would never get out of committee. | These are extraordinary pictures, and I don't believe they are exploitation. They are mythic, and therefore rise above most criticism. A famous book, the Knife and Gun Club, illustrates the drama of a big city emergency department. The book did not exploit inner city residents, but it did violate their privacy. Yet how else was the average American to know the level of violence and tragedy that existed in the inner city. The book did more than all the political speeches about the relationship between violence and poverty to educate people of my generation. Now, because of patient privacy legislation such a book could never be produced. It would never get out of committee. |
| This series of photographs would never get past any committee either. We would be too busy finding reasons why they would offend us. The people in these photographs do not need us. You can look in their faces and see that. Their dignity triumphs over our will. Yet we need them to teach us who they are, and later, who they were, once Western civilization gets hold of them with all it's rules and prejudices. | This series of photographs would never get past any committee either. We would be too busy finding reasons why they would offend us. The people in these photographs do not need us. You can look in their faces and see that. Their dignity triumphs over our will. Yet we need them to teach us who they are, and later, who they were, once Western civilization gets hold of them with all it's rules and prejudices. |
| I have never seen anything like these pictures. That makes them priceless. Would I find them objectionable if they were poorly done? I don't know. The real exploitation of these people will come later once the fashion and retail industry takes hold of their images, dilutes them, and parades their products on the runways of Paris and New York, and in the thousands of web ads that pummel us. The tragedy will be ours for using these people to sell $2000 handbags, and patterned home furnishings. The shame will be on us, and not on the Africans. The real money does not lie in the selling of these photographs ---$600 is chump change. It lies behind the handwringing over exploitation of children, behind the fussy rumination about rights or informed consent: it lies in our own heart of darkness, and our willingness to co-op the pretty surface of alien culture for real money. What drives all the propriety is the fear of what we can do to these people, simply because we can. | I have never seen anything like these pictures. That makes them priceless. Would I find them objectionable if they were poorly done? I don't know. The real exploitation of these people will come later once the fashion and retail industry takes hold of their images, dilutes them, and parades their products on the runways of Paris and New York, and in the thousands of web ads that pummel us. The tragedy will be ours for using these people to sell $2000 handbags, and patterned home furnishings. The shame will be on us, and not on the Africans. The real money does not lie in the selling of these photographs ---$600 is chump change. It lies behind the handwringing over exploitation of children, behind the fussy rumination about rights or informed consent: it lies in our own heart of darkness, and our willingness to co-op the pretty surface of alien culture for real money. What drives all the propriety is the fear of what we can do to these people, simply because we can. |
| These photographs are superb. I wonder at people that can somehow put the nudity here in a bracket such as Page 3 Tabloid. I am jealous I don't have the artistic and technical capability to make such stunning shots. | These photographs are superb. I wonder at people that can somehow put the nudity here in a bracket such as Page 3 Tabloid. I am jealous I don't have the artistic and technical capability to make such stunning shots. |
| On nudity and consent | On nudity and consent |
| As a member of the Dinka community of South Sudan, I respect the photographers' intent and presentation - beautiful indeed - yet must remind them and others of the age-old Western practice of taking the beauty of Africa, exploiting it for riches, fame or a Phd dissertation-->tenure, without returning "just" value to the African person, community or nation. | |
| If one takes much, one should give much. Traditional cultures around the world have been long exploited for their knowledge of animals, herbs and skill set, plus art, natural resources, even their person - recall the story of Ota Benga. | |
| Times should change, as I recall, the Arctic First Nation People (Northern Canada) make researchers sign agreements to ensure their community gets respect and the short-term researchers follow a code of ethics. So in the end, visitors and the informed community should both be satisfied. | |
| A note to GoodIntentions on the comment:"Given that the people live a world away from the media world we live in any attempt to explain 'consent' would be untranslateable..." | |
| GoodIntentions, you seem to be saying that cattle camp Dinka cannot understand the concept of consent: not true! This is not some isolated tribe in the Amazonian forest - Readers do not be fooled, many people at these camps travel in and out of South Sudan, some even attend elite universities in Europe and America, though some relatives stay local. They have cellphones, to call more learned relatives in London, if need be. But explaining that you are going to make a lot of money on the photographs or art carvings you take is not lost in translation. Dinka understand money, Michael Jordan, Nike, etc. if profit is a visitor's main objective when visiting such an area in South Sudan. | |
| My point : | |
| In the 21st Century: Give "just" value...whatever that translates to: $, recognition, scholarships, buildings, time, intermittent contact, etc. - whatever is just! | |
| The photos are beautiful. They are photos of people doing what they do, whether they are 'naked' or partially clothed, that's not the point. I don't think they are eroticised though some are probably posed for artistic effect. However the photographers stand to make a lot of money out of this so the main question for me is consent and profit share, just as it would be if they were photos of any other group of people anywhere in the world. | The photos are beautiful. They are photos of people doing what they do, whether they are 'naked' or partially clothed, that's not the point. I don't think they are eroticised though some are probably posed for artistic effect. However the photographers stand to make a lot of money out of this so the main question for me is consent and profit share, just as it would be if they were photos of any other group of people anywhere in the world. |
| People have long been interested in the way other people live, and pictures like these are an excellent way of showing other peoples lifestyles. They only become wrong when they are used to suggest that we are better than them, or they are faked to prove a particualr point.If the Dinka go about generally naked, then to depict them in clothing, would be wrong. | People have long been interested in the way other people live, and pictures like these are an excellent way of showing other peoples lifestyles. They only become wrong when they are used to suggest that we are better than them, or they are faked to prove a particualr point.If the Dinka go about generally naked, then to depict them in clothing, would be wrong. |
| The Dinka have been photographed by Westerners since at least the 1930s, they are not a naive people who have no idea what use will be made of their pictures. No mention here of whether they received anything in return. These pictures are taken with the consent of the people photographed, randomly photographing people and their children in the park is not consensual. Nakedness is their normal way of life, they are not ashamed of it, they do not have our hang-ups about our bodies. You are not likely to find many people in Western countries running around naked, but there are plenty of consensual images of naked white people. Naturist magazines still flourish in much of northern Europe, including images of entire families.Sensitivity to other cultures' values does not mean imposing our values and our meanings on theirs. While a Dinka may happily be photographed naked someone in another culture might object to any photograph at all. | The Dinka have been photographed by Westerners since at least the 1930s, they are not a naive people who have no idea what use will be made of their pictures. No mention here of whether they received anything in return. These pictures are taken with the consent of the people photographed, randomly photographing people and their children in the park is not consensual. Nakedness is their normal way of life, they are not ashamed of it, they do not have our hang-ups about our bodies. You are not likely to find many people in Western countries running around naked, but there are plenty of consensual images of naked white people. Naturist magazines still flourish in much of northern Europe, including images of entire families.Sensitivity to other cultures' values does not mean imposing our values and our meanings on theirs. While a Dinka may happily be photographed naked someone in another culture might object to any photograph at all. |
| Very interesting article/discussion and beautiful photographs. | Very interesting article/discussion and beautiful photographs. |
| Yes, it is interesting to understand a little the story of the person being photographed, but life is full of moments where this does not happen but the human experience is full and rich. Fragments of time in any city where you observe an interaction, a glance, a pose that strikes you as beautiful, or surprising. It is simply not true to suggest that without understanding the back story such moments have no meaning. We are all animals, some of us with cameras, alive and responding to the experiences and sights we are immersed in. | Yes, it is interesting to understand a little the story of the person being photographed, but life is full of moments where this does not happen but the human experience is full and rich. Fragments of time in any city where you observe an interaction, a glance, a pose that strikes you as beautiful, or surprising. It is simply not true to suggest that without understanding the back story such moments have no meaning. We are all animals, some of us with cameras, alive and responding to the experiences and sights we are immersed in. |
| I see no reason to feel shame at seeing or photographing 'otherness'. That too is a deep experience that all of us feel and art, surely, is about communicating these life experiences to each other in ways that encourage us to see the world differently. | I see no reason to feel shame at seeing or photographing 'otherness'. That too is a deep experience that all of us feel and art, surely, is about communicating these life experiences to each other in ways that encourage us to see the world differently. |
| Nudity. If all nudity is to be censored then essentially the subtext is that it is bad. Who has won what if that is accepted as the global reality we must all live by? | Nudity. If all nudity is to be censored then essentially the subtext is that it is bad. Who has won what if that is accepted as the global reality we must all live by? |
| Consent is a tricky issue. Now billions of us can take photos of the places and people our lives pass through are we going to use notions of consent to censor our own experiences? I hope not. On the other hand with Google glass, etc. people can take intimate photos without the subject ever knowing they are being filmed, and that might be described as a kind of theft if the photographer then makes money from the moment he/she has taken. | Consent is a tricky issue. Now billions of us can take photos of the places and people our lives pass through are we going to use notions of consent to censor our own experiences? I hope not. On the other hand with Google glass, etc. people can take intimate photos without the subject ever knowing they are being filmed, and that might be described as a kind of theft if the photographer then makes money from the moment he/she has taken. |
| Interesting article. | Interesting article. |
| What about you? Have any of these comments or tweets swayed your opinion either way? Add your thoughts in the comment thread on the original piece, or tweet @GuardianAfrica | What about you? Have any of these comments or tweets swayed your opinion either way? Add your thoughts in the comment thread on the original piece, or tweet @GuardianAfrica |