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Gordon Brown annoys his allies by fueling SNP quest for a Salmond Cameron TV debate Gordon Brown annoys his allies by fueling SNP quest for a Salmond Cameron TV debate
(2 months later)
Gordon Brown has, unexpectedly, Gordon Brown has, unexpectedly, reignited the debate on whether David Cameron should face Alex Salmond in a television debate on independence: he told political journalists at Westminster such an event was “a good idea.”
reignited the debate on whether David Cameron should face Alex And, say senior figures in the Scottish National party, he has breathed new life into their quest for a contest which Downing Street insist will never happen. The SNP plans to wait and see whether a sharp tightening of the polls in late summer might force Cameron into reverse.
Salmond in a television debate on independence: he told political That would delay a final decision – one which broadcasters say privately has been tacitly made in principle – for the first minister to agree a debate with Alistair Darling, the Better Together chairman. That debate is expected to be held in the final three or four weeks of the campaign – potentially a defining moment.
journalists at Westminster such an event was “a good idea.” Questioned at a lobby journalists lunch on Monday, Brown appeared to dismiss suggestions that having a Tory prime minister was a hindrance for the independence campaign, arguing:
And, say senior figures in the Scottish The prime minister has got to be involved in this debate. This is a debate about the future of Britain. It would be completely wrong if the leaders of the country were not involved.
National party, he has breathed new life into their quest for a As Mike Settle, the Herald's Westminster editor reports, Brown was then asked if that meant Cameron should agree to Salmond's long-standing challenge to debate him head to head on TV. Here he went off-script, to the undisguised irritation of his comrades in the no campaign, arguing:
contest which Downing Street insist will never happen. The SNP plans It would be a good idea if David Cameron could debate Alex Salmond, but I'm not involved in the negotiations.
to wait and see whether a sharp tightening of the polls in late The Scottish National party was delighted: here was the former Labour prime minister and the newly-crowned figurehead of Scottish Labour's pro-UK United with Labour campaign directly contradicting the settled position of the pro-UK Better Together campaign – one he now actively supports, that no Cameron-Salmond debate would ever take place.
summer might force Cameron into reverse. On the face of it, it also contradicted Brown's central argument on Monday – one put extremely vigorously in an essay for the Guardian, that Cameron and his ministers in London had undermined the UK case by seeming to portray the referendum as a contest between Britain and Scotland.
That would delay a final decision – Seeming to endorse the notion that English Tories don't work well in Scotland, he wrote:
one which broadcasters say privately has been tacitly made in principle – for 'Go up to Scotland and make the case for the union,' David Cameron has implored his ministers. But when the message became: 'Britain says no to Scots participation in the pound' and 'Britain says no to further defence work' and 'Britain says Scots will go bankrupt', ministers allowed the nationalists to present the referendum as a choice between Britain and Scotland.
the first minister to agree a debate with Alistair Darling, the Better They forget that it is only Scots who are voting, that the voters' starting point is not the greatness of Britain or the longevity of the Union but their own needs and aspirations as Scots, and that the no campaign will win only by presenting a Scottish vision of Scotland's future as a patriotic alternative to that of the SNP.
Together chairman. That debate is expected to be held in the final Downing Street and the Better Together campaign are annoyed by Brown's unfraternal intervention. One official said:
three or four weeks of the campaign – potentially a defining No, it's not helpful. There's spin-doctoring and then there's just being ridiculous and what he said was not helpful.
moment.
Questioned at a lobby journalists lunch
on Monday, Brown appeared to dismiss suggestions that having a Tory
prime minister was a hindrance for the independence campaign,
arguing:
The prime minister has got to be
involved in this debate. This is a debate about the future of
Britain. It would be completely wrong if the leaders of the country
were not involved.
As Mike Settle, the Herald's
Westminster editor reports, Brown was then asked if that meant
Cameron should agree to Salmond's long-standing challenge to debate
him head to head on TV. Here he went off-script, to the undisguised
irritation of his comrades in the no campaign, arguing:
It would be a good idea if David
Cameron could debate Alex Salmond, but I'm not involved in the
negotiations.
The Scottish National party was
delighted: here was the former Labour prime minister and the
newly-crowned figurehead of Scottish Labour's pro-UK United with
Labour campaign directly contradicting the settled position of the
pro-UK Better Together campaign – one he now actively supports,
that no Cameron-Salmond debate would ever take place.
On the face of it, it also contradicted
Brown's central argument on Monday – one put extremely vigorously
in an essay for the Guardian, that Cameron and his ministers in
London had undermined the UK case by seeming to portray the
referendum as a contest between Britain and Scotland.
Seeming to endorse the notion that
English Tories don't work well in Scotland, he wrote:
'Go up to Scotland and make the
case for the union,' David Cameron has implored his ministers.
But when the message became: 'Britain says no to Scots
participation in the pound' and 'Britain says no to further
defence work' and 'Britain says Scots will go bankrupt',
ministers allowed the nationalists to present the referendum as a
choice between Britain and Scotland.
They forget that it is only Scots who
are voting, that the voters' starting point is not the greatness of
Britain or the longevity of the Union but their own needs and
aspirations as Scots, and that the no campaign will win only by
presenting a Scottish vision of Scotland's future as a patriotic
alternative to that of the SNP.
Downing Street and the Better Together
campaign are annoyed by Brown's unfraternal intervention. One
official said:
No, it's not helpful. There's
spin-doctoring and then there's just being ridiculous and what he
said was not helpful.
Labour MPs are also irritated by Brown's remarks, according to BBC Westminster correspondent David Porter. He reports them saying they were "unhelpful" and "irrational".Labour MPs are also irritated by Brown's remarks, according to BBC Westminster correspondent David Porter. He reports them saying they were "unhelpful" and "irrational".
But the Better Together insider insisted Cameron was resolutely But the Better Together insider insisted Cameron was resolutely opposed to a debate with Salmond - the Downing Street position is that Cameron has no vote, and that this is a question to be settled by Scotland's citizens:
opposed to a debate with Salmond - the Downing Street position is that We know there are conversations going on between the nationalists and the broadcasters. Salmond is preparing the ground to say yes to a debate with Alistair [Darling]. We think the only difference Gordon's remarks has made is delay the inevitable.
Cameron has no vote, and that this is a question to be settled by Peter Murrell, the SNP's chief executive, rejects that argument while at the same time appearing to acknowledge that Salmond would indeed debate on television against someone other than Cameron.
Scotland's citizens: Scotland, he says, has a long tradition of political debates on television which predates the 2010 general election UK leaders' debates – the first held for a UK general election:
We know there are conversations There's always been television debates in Scotland. I think that they will occur at some stage, but there are the two guys advocating the two propositions on the ballot paper, the two guys [Cameron and Salmond] who signed the Edinburgh agreement [which established the referendum] and no doubt Mr Cameron will travel north several times before polling day.
going on between the nationalists and the broadcasters. Salmond is He's trying to persuade people to vote no, so why shouldn't that medium include television, debating with the other side?
preparing the ground to say yes to a debate with Alistair [Darling]. Murrell made clear the SNP wants to see how the summer campaign changes the public mood and the polls – he, like Blair Jenkins at Yes Scotland, believes the opinion polls will show a continuing growth in support for independence.
We think the only difference Gordon's remarks has made is delay the Knowing that opinion polls show a Salmond-Cameron contest is popular, they plan to wait, to see how the summer plays out before making a final decision on whether Salmond will debate Darling:
inevitable. Why don't we just close the gap a bit more and see whether we're right, whether there will be a debate between David Cameron and Alex Salmond. Let's just see what we can do in the period when everyone is watching the World Cup and the Commonwealth games.
Peter Murrell, the SNP's chief
executive, rejects that argument while at the same time appearing to
acknowledge that Salmond would indeed debate on television against
someone other than Cameron.
Scotland, he says, has a long tradition
of political debates on television which predates the 2010 general
election UK leaders' debates – the first held for a UK general
election:
There's always been television
debates in Scotland. I think that they will occur at some stage, but
there are the two guys advocating the two propositions on the ballot
paper, the two guys [Cameron and Salmond] who signed the Edinburgh
agreement [which established the referendum] and no doubt Mr Cameron
will travel north several times before polling day.
He's trying to persuade people to
vote no, so why shouldn't that medium include television, debating
with the other side?
Murrell made clear the SNP wants to see
how the summer campaign changes the public mood and the polls – he,
like Blair Jenkins at Yes Scotland, believes the opinion polls will
show a continuing growth in support for independence.
Knowing that opinion polls show a Salmond-Cameron contest is popular, they plan to wait, to see how the
summer plays out before making a final decision on whether Salmond
will debate Darling:
Why don't we just close the gap a
bit more and see whether we're right, whether there will be a debate
between David Cameron and Alex Salmond. Let's just see what we can do
in the period when everyone is watching the World Cup and the
Commonwealth games.