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What price democracy in Egypt? What price democracy in Egypt?
(about 23 hours later)
In 2005, the US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared the Bush administration was backing democracy throughout the Middle East. But on a trip to Egypt earlier this year, Justin Webb discovered that there was still a long way to go.In 2005, the US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared the Bush administration was backing democracy throughout the Middle East. But on a trip to Egypt earlier this year, Justin Webb discovered that there was still a long way to go.
A nice woman called Anne Stawski answers the phone. She is the head of media relations for OshKosh Trucks in the evocatively named city of OshKosh, Wisconsin. Oshkosh Trucks' latest success is to sell to the Egyptian government.A nice woman called Anne Stawski answers the phone. She is the head of media relations for OshKosh Trucks in the evocatively named city of OshKosh, Wisconsin. Oshkosh Trucks' latest success is to sell to the Egyptian government.
"Are there countries OshKosh Trucks would not do business with?""Are there countries OshKosh Trucks would not do business with?"
"Yes, but Egypt is fine.""Yes, but Egypt is fine."
Our conversation took me back to a day earlier this year, when I found myself looking for trouble and finding it, in one of the world's most hectic cities.Our conversation took me back to a day earlier this year, when I found myself looking for trouble and finding it, in one of the world's most hectic cities.
Cairo is a low-rise, run-down, smog-filled place, heaving with people, most of them driving small, dilapidated cars beaten like recalcitrant donkeys into one more journey.Cairo is a low-rise, run-down, smog-filled place, heaving with people, most of them driving small, dilapidated cars beaten like recalcitrant donkeys into one more journey.
Security menSecurity men
It is difficult to organise things in Cairo.It is difficult to organise things in Cairo.
So if they bring this off - this anti-Mubarak protest - the small, secular, Western-leaning opposition group I have been in touch with, will be making a considerable point.So if they bring this off - this anti-Mubarak protest - the small, secular, Western-leaning opposition group I have been in touch with, will be making a considerable point.
The demonstrators were planning to meet at a huge traffic roundabout in the centre of Cairo.The demonstrators were planning to meet at a huge traffic roundabout in the centre of Cairo.
I arrive to find the corner of every street emptying into the roundabout, choc-full with riot police, standing to attention, helmets already on and sticks at the ready.I arrive to find the corner of every street emptying into the roundabout, choc-full with riot police, standing to attention, helmets already on and sticks at the ready.
I stop and watch, and within seconds a man in civilian clothes who had also stopped to watch, comes over and suggests to my translator that we keep moving "for your own safety".I stop and watch, and within seconds a man in civilian clothes who had also stopped to watch, comes over and suggests to my translator that we keep moving "for your own safety".
Suddenly, I am aware that this man - stockily built with short hair and a leather jacket - is one of several identical chaps standing here. No, one of dozens.Suddenly, I am aware that this man - stockily built with short hair and a leather jacket - is one of several identical chaps standing here. No, one of dozens.
No, hold on, as I walk around the roundabout, across each street and onto the next paved area, it becomes obvious there are hundreds of them.No, hold on, as I walk around the roundabout, across each street and onto the next paved area, it becomes obvious there are hundreds of them.
I am not suggesting that President Bush pulls the rug from under the Mubarak regime, but a highly publicised phone call might be a start.I am not suggesting that President Bush pulls the rug from under the Mubarak regime, but a highly publicised phone call might be a start.
On closer inspection some of them seem to be armed with pistols. Something very odd is going on.On closer inspection some of them seem to be armed with pistols. Something very odd is going on.
This huge expanse of space has been flooded with security men.This huge expanse of space has been flooded with security men.
There are some lunchtime shoppers walking through but they are a tiny minority. Most of the square is peopled by the forces of law.There are some lunchtime shoppers walking through but they are a tiny minority. Most of the square is peopled by the forces of law.
ArrestArrest
My translator sums it up: "They are not going to let this demonstration happen."My translator sums it up: "They are not going to let this demonstration happen."
And just as he says that, we bump into a local journalist - still walking, so committing no offence - who is accompanied by a potential demonstrator.And just as he says that, we bump into a local journalist - still walking, so committing no offence - who is accompanied by a potential demonstrator.
Mubarak gained a fifth consecutive term in office in September 2005He is a tiny little man with intense eyes that dart about as if in a desperate warning to their owner of dangers ahead.Mubarak gained a fifth consecutive term in office in September 2005He is a tiny little man with intense eyes that dart about as if in a desperate warning to their owner of dangers ahead.
But he is a gutsy fellow, this lonely opponent of President Mubarak, and when I get my recorder out he is happy to be interviewed.But he is a gutsy fellow, this lonely opponent of President Mubarak, and when I get my recorder out he is happy to be interviewed.
We manage three questions before it becomes obvious that what we are doing is not going to be tolerated.We manage three questions before it becomes obvious that what we are doing is not going to be tolerated.
Ten or so of the leather jacket fellows are listening in. They are getting very close. In fact, we are surrounded.Ten or so of the leather jacket fellows are listening in. They are getting very close. In fact, we are surrounded.
We turn off the recorder and as soon as we do, they pounce. Not on me - there appeared to be a deliberate effort made to ensure that no foreigner could claim ill treatment - but on the tiny protester who was quite suddenly not there.We turn off the recorder and as soon as we do, they pounce. Not on me - there appeared to be a deliberate effort made to ensure that no foreigner could claim ill treatment - but on the tiny protester who was quite suddenly not there.
The last I saw of him he was being bundled into a truck with metal grills on the windows.The last I saw of him he was being bundled into a truck with metal grills on the windows.
By the way, the truck was made by Iveco, the European manufacturer. Again they told us they were unembarrassed by this business arrangement.By the way, the truck was made by Iveco, the European manufacturer. Again they told us they were unembarrassed by this business arrangement.
StrandedStranded
The arrest was certainly efficient though. There followed a somewhat surreal interlude as it turned out the protester had managed to get to the roundabout without attracting the attention of the police, by pushing a friend in his wheelchair.The arrest was certainly efficient though. There followed a somewhat surreal interlude as it turned out the protester had managed to get to the roundabout without attracting the attention of the police, by pushing a friend in his wheelchair.
The friend, who looked to me as if he had cerebral palsy, was now stranded amid the serried and unsympathetic forces of the law.The friend, who looked to me as if he had cerebral palsy, was now stranded amid the serried and unsympathetic forces of the law.
I am proud to say that the BBC rescued this man, pushed him out of harm's way, and paid for a cab to take him home.I am proud to say that the BBC rescued this man, pushed him out of harm's way, and paid for a cab to take him home.
But no amount of effort and remonstration and subsequent phone calls could rescue our interviewee.But no amount of effort and remonstration and subsequent phone calls could rescue our interviewee.
By the time we got back to the scene of the non-demonstration, the police were yawning and packing up and thinking about dinner.By the time we got back to the scene of the non-demonstration, the police were yawning and packing up and thinking about dinner.
Why does any of this matter?Why does any of this matter?
Well, it was in Cairo that Condoleezza Rice announced two years ago that the United States would in the future change its policy to back democracy and oppose Middle Eastern autocracy.Well, it was in Cairo that Condoleezza Rice announced two years ago that the United States would in the future change its policy to back democracy and oppose Middle Eastern autocracy.
"We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people," she said."We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people," she said.
In fairness, Dr Rice has made efforts to keep up the pressure on the Egyptians. A prominent columnist I am in touch with says she is certain she would have been arrested, but for the fact that the secretary of state would cause a fuss.In fairness, Dr Rice has made efforts to keep up the pressure on the Egyptians. A prominent columnist I am in touch with says she is certain she would have been arrested, but for the fact that the secretary of state would cause a fuss.
But is this enough?But is this enough?
I am not suggesting that President Bush pulls the rug from under the Mubarak regime, but a highly publicised phone call might be a start.I am not suggesting that President Bush pulls the rug from under the Mubarak regime, but a highly publicised phone call might be a start.
I do believe - unfashionably, I suspect - that the United States is a force for good in the world. But that reputation has to be earned.I do believe - unfashionably, I suspect - that the United States is a force for good in the world. But that reputation has to be earned.
From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Saturday, 3 November, 2007 at 1130 BST on BBC Radio 4. Please check the programme schedules for World Service transmission times. From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Saturday, 3 November, 2007 at 1130 GMT on BBC Radio 4. Please check the programme schedules for World Service transmission times.