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| Occupy and November elections: a recap of our live chat | Occupy and November elections: a recap of our live chat |
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| As the most expensive election campaign in history unfolds in one of the world's oldest democracies, and fresh details emerge each day of malpratice and abuses of power at leading financial institutions and banks, what of the popular movement last year which questioned it all? | As the most expensive election campaign in history unfolds in one of the world's oldest democracies, and fresh details emerge each day of malpratice and abuses of power at leading financial institutions and banks, what of the popular movement last year which questioned it all? |
| Ten months after the Occupy Wall Street movement set up stage in a park in downtown New York, and sparked protests across America, sociologist Todd Gitlin probes its actions and ideals in his new book Occupy Nation: The Roots, the Spirit, and the Promise of Occupy Wall Street. Occupy Nation is out as an e-book and a paperback will be released in August. | Ten months after the Occupy Wall Street movement set up stage in a park in downtown New York, and sparked protests across America, sociologist Todd Gitlin probes its actions and ideals in his new book Occupy Nation: The Roots, the Spirit, and the Promise of Occupy Wall Street. Occupy Nation is out as an e-book and a paperback will be released in August. |
| Gitlin, a professor at Columbia University and self-styled troublemaker who was active in the student movements of the 1960s, writes: | Gitlin, a professor at Columbia University and self-styled troublemaker who was active in the student movements of the 1960s, writes: |
| This book is an initial report on something very much in progress … I introduce some movers and shakers, trace the human, social, ideological roots of the movement, as best I understand them, and explore how they relate to the whole political-cultural ecology that includes them, including the larger organizations around them, the political parties, and Wall Street itself. | This book is an initial report on something very much in progress … I introduce some movers and shakers, trace the human, social, ideological roots of the movement, as best I understand them, and explore how they relate to the whole political-cultural ecology that includes them, including the larger organizations around them, the political parties, and Wall Street itself. |
| In a live webchat, Gitlin spoke about the movement's successes and failures, as well as how big money – billions of dollars in election campaign and shadowy Super Pac spending – was affecting America's democracy, which is routinely held up as an ideal to the rest of the world. | |
| He was joined by two Occupy protesters – Kelvin Ho from Occupy Chicago and David Osborn from Occupy Portland – who remain involved in a range of issues roiling America, from foreclosures to unemployment. | He was joined by two Occupy protesters – Kelvin Ho from Occupy Chicago and David Osborn from Occupy Portland – who remain involved in a range of issues roiling America, from foreclosures to unemployment. |
| Chitrangada Choudhury: Hello everyone, and welcome to our live web chat with Todd Gitlin, who is out with a new book Occupy Nation. We also have with us David Osborn from Occupy Portland and Kelvin Ho from Occupy Chicago. | |
| Todd Gitlin: Greetings all. I'm eager to hear questions about the Occupy movement & to see what interested folks are thinking. | |
| Kelvin Ho: Hello everyone | Kelvin Ho: Hello everyone |
| David: Hello Chitrangada Choudhury: How has the process of writing the book been? Todd Gitlin: It was thrilling, exhilarating, challenging. Challenging because the thing I was looking at was morphing in real time. How do you get it to stand still for a book? How do you say something that would still be valuable in some months time, or more? I wrestled with these problems all the time. But this only made the process more exhilarating. Chitrangada Choudhury: And David and Kelvin, we have a question from a reader that is on many people's minds | David: Hello Chitrangada Choudhury: How has the process of writing the book been? Todd Gitlin: It was thrilling, exhilarating, challenging. Challenging because the thing I was looking at was morphing in real time. How do you get it to stand still for a book? How do you say something that would still be valuable in some months time, or more? I wrestled with these problems all the time. But this only made the process more exhilarating. Chitrangada Choudhury: And David and Kelvin, we have a question from a reader that is on many people's minds |
Shannon: Greetings from Tucson. I'm interested to know your take on the current status of the Occupy movement. | Shannon: Greetings from Tucson. I'm interested to know your take on the current status of the Occupy movement. |
Todd Gitlin: In a few words, I think Occupy 1.0 is over. The achievement was to place the problem of inequality squarely in front of America. That has happened. "1%" and "99%" are household, bumper-sticker terms. But the energy that was released last year has considerably dissipated. Occupy 2.0, in my view, has to be a focusing lens: Articulating concrete goals, setting up networks that ferociously concentrate on collecting the energies & winning results. | Todd Gitlin: In a few words, I think Occupy 1.0 is over. The achievement was to place the problem of inequality squarely in front of America. That has happened. "1%" and "99%" are household, bumper-sticker terms. But the energy that was released last year has considerably dissipated. Occupy 2.0, in my view, has to be a focusing lens: Articulating concrete goals, setting up networks that ferociously concentrate on collecting the energies & winning results. |
| Kelvin Ho: I think there's a lot to be excited about when we're looking at the Occupy movement right now. A lot of it is hard to tease out from standard mainstream media portrayals given that most of it still seems stuck with a conception of the movement that I think is highly flawed. As a few commentators have noted, most of the exciting progress in the movement is occurring on what people might conceive as being the "fringes" of the movement. For example there's a tremendous amount of momentum around higher education/student that's forming (not surprising giving the typical "Occupy" participant. Similar exciting things are happening along the foreclosure/labor-occupy alliances. There is also a lot of reflection going on - people are beginning to reflect on the successes and opportunities for change that have arisen over the past few months. We're starting to see experimentation with different forms of organizing/events too. Here in Chicago at least, I know that we've moved past the notion of calling ourselves a leaderless movement and leaving it at that. The "informal" leaders are recognizing the roles they play in the movement intentionally and actively working to build more leaders - holding each other accountable for the actions they take and what not. | Kelvin Ho: I think there's a lot to be excited about when we're looking at the Occupy movement right now. A lot of it is hard to tease out from standard mainstream media portrayals given that most of it still seems stuck with a conception of the movement that I think is highly flawed. As a few commentators have noted, most of the exciting progress in the movement is occurring on what people might conceive as being the "fringes" of the movement. For example there's a tremendous amount of momentum around higher education/student that's forming (not surprising giving the typical "Occupy" participant. Similar exciting things are happening along the foreclosure/labor-occupy alliances. There is also a lot of reflection going on - people are beginning to reflect on the successes and opportunities for change that have arisen over the past few months. We're starting to see experimentation with different forms of organizing/events too. Here in Chicago at least, I know that we've moved past the notion of calling ourselves a leaderless movement and leaving it at that. The "informal" leaders are recognizing the roles they play in the movement intentionally and actively working to build more leaders - holding each other accountable for the actions they take and what not. |
| David: I would say that the movement is far from over. It has morphed changed, in some places what came out of the movement does not use "Occupy" in its name. However, tens of thousands have been activated as to their collective power and a great deal of work continues. That being said I agree that the phase of Occupy in its initial incarnation is over and that evolution is needed. | David: I would say that the movement is far from over. It has morphed changed, in some places what came out of the movement does not use "Occupy" in its name. However, tens of thousands have been activated as to their collective power and a great deal of work continues. That being said I agree that the phase of Occupy in its initial incarnation is over and that evolution is needed. |
| I know that I am in a process of engaging with others for constructive reflection about those evolutions and what we can learn from our experiences to be prepared for the next movements of mass movement mobilization. We are doing this while the important organizing work, particularly around issues of foreclosures and community control of resources, continues. | I know that I am in a process of engaging with others for constructive reflection about those evolutions and what we can learn from our experiences to be prepared for the next movements of mass movement mobilization. We are doing this while the important organizing work, particularly around issues of foreclosures and community control of resources, continues. |
| Shannon: yes, Todd: agreed that 2.0 needs to be focused. But is this new model (the affinity group, etc.) working? | Shannon: yes, Todd: agreed that 2.0 needs to be focused. But is this new model (the affinity group, etc.) working? |
Todd Gitlin: I don't think the movement is exactly over--but it's badly in need of an evolutionary leap. The benefits of demandlessness were considerable, but have now, in my view, expanded. If you're interested, I can offer my nifty little idea for a continuation.:) | Todd Gitlin: I don't think the movement is exactly over--but it's badly in need of an evolutionary leap. The benefits of demandlessness were considerable, but have now, in my view, expanded. If you're interested, I can offer my nifty little idea for a continuation.:) |
Shannon: sure, very interested in your nifty idea. please share. | Shannon: sure, very interested in your nifty idea. please share. |
Todd Gitlin: The inspiration is English--19th century English: The Chartist movement. We should have a simple charter. 4 demands: 1. Drive money out of politics, full public financing of campaigns. 2. Robin Hood tax. 3. Tax all income at the same progressive rate--capital gains same as wages. 4. Reinstate some version of Glass-Steagall--separate commercial banking from investment. A million people sign on, declaring that henceforward they will only vote for candidates who endorse this platform. Direct actions should be focused in these directions. A million questions still remain, of course, but I think this is a viable vector. | Todd Gitlin: The inspiration is English--19th century English: The Chartist movement. We should have a simple charter. 4 demands: 1. Drive money out of politics, full public financing of campaigns. 2. Robin Hood tax. 3. Tax all income at the same progressive rate--capital gains same as wages. 4. Reinstate some version of Glass-Steagall--separate commercial banking from investment. A million people sign on, declaring that henceforward they will only vote for candidates who endorse this platform. Direct actions should be focused in these directions. A million questions still remain, of course, but I think this is a viable vector. |
| I'm all for the community actions against illicit foreclosures, too. That's been one of the best initiatives the movement has engendered. But there needs to be a national focus, national visibility; what in the book I call a full-service movement, that affords roles for people who are deeply committed but also for people who just want to contribute. Contributions have to be gathered from everywhere, not just the most devoted activists. | I'm all for the community actions against illicit foreclosures, too. That's been one of the best initiatives the movement has engendered. But there needs to be a national focus, national visibility; what in the book I call a full-service movement, that affords roles for people who are deeply committed but also for people who just want to contribute. Contributions have to be gathered from everywhere, not just the most devoted activists. |
| Rowland: Michael Hardt and David Graeber among others talk at length about an american resistance movement that is not an armed insurrection. the contours and nature of that. how that can and has taken shape. saying that you believe occupy must narrow to concrete goals is understandable but it also sounds like you expect it to transform into a leftist association that lobbies congress etc. wishful thinking estimating that to be within the scope of social change. | Rowland: Michael Hardt and David Graeber among others talk at length about an american resistance movement that is not an armed insurrection. the contours and nature of that. how that can and has taken shape. saying that you believe occupy must narrow to concrete goals is understandable but it also sounds like you expect it to transform into a leftist association that lobbies congress etc. wishful thinking estimating that to be within the scope of social change. |
| David: Todd, I think that would be a very problematic direction to go into, which would counter some of the core aspirations of the movement. That direction accepts the economic system and the existing political institutions as acceptable, reformable, which they are not. It is my opinion that that orientation would get little traction among many of the core participants in the movement. | David: Todd, I think that would be a very problematic direction to go into, which would counter some of the core aspirations of the movement. That direction accepts the economic system and the existing political institutions as acceptable, reformable, which they are not. It is my opinion that that orientation would get little traction among many of the core participants in the movement. |
| Shannon: Chitrangada, I think we can all agree on the need for 2.0, right? (I mean, we're Occupy activists, so we'd naturally gravitate toward arguing for the need--) but what about the continued life in the movement? Its longer-term impact? More specifically, and to co-opt the language of the oppressor, is the Occupy "brand" still resonant? David, the evolution you mention is indeed critical...but what if Occupy can't recover from the bashing it took from police forces and mayor's offices all over the country? Here in Tucson we got slammed by the media and the cops...and the Occupy name is so damn tarnished that I'm questioning whether it's worth my energy to throw my activism behind a failing brand. Sigh. | Shannon: Chitrangada, I think we can all agree on the need for 2.0, right? (I mean, we're Occupy activists, so we'd naturally gravitate toward arguing for the need--) but what about the continued life in the movement? Its longer-term impact? More specifically, and to co-opt the language of the oppressor, is the Occupy "brand" still resonant? David, the evolution you mention is indeed critical...but what if Occupy can't recover from the bashing it took from police forces and mayor's offices all over the country? Here in Tucson we got slammed by the media and the cops...and the Occupy name is so damn tarnished that I'm questioning whether it's worth my energy to throw my activism behind a failing brand. Sigh. |
| Todd Gitlin: David, I'm well aware of the core aspirations. They've accomplished a great deal. But diminishing returns have long since set in. In a movement, the question is not what we "accept." The question is what do we *change.* Great movements are not declarations of legitimacy. They are forms of action and thought that mobilize people. | Todd Gitlin: David, I'm well aware of the core aspirations. They've accomplished a great deal. But diminishing returns have long since set in. In a movement, the question is not what we "accept." The question is what do we *change.* Great movements are not declarations of legitimacy. They are forms of action and thought that mobilize people. |
Kelvin Ho: One thing people have to recognize when critiquing the movement are the internal structures of the movement. While it is a movement that is constantly evolving, people also need to recognize their are certain aspects of it that make certain types of paths harder to take (demands for example is one thing that is very hard to imagine it making in the near future). | Kelvin Ho: One thing people have to recognize when critiquing the movement are the internal structures of the movement. While it is a movement that is constantly evolving, people also need to recognize their are certain aspects of it that make certain types of paths harder to take (demands for example is one thing that is very hard to imagine it making in the near future). |
| Todd Gitlin: Shannon, I'd love to know what you & others in Tucson are thinking about evolutionary next stages. Have you tried foreclosure-related actions? Focused on particularly egregious banks? | Todd Gitlin: Shannon, I'd love to know what you & others in Tucson are thinking about evolutionary next stages. Have you tried foreclosure-related actions? Focused on particularly egregious banks? |
| Shannon: Yes, bank actions are happening, as are actions around SB 1070 and Tucson's school district banning ethnic studies. Kelvin, your comments are helpful. Fingers awiggle, thanks. | Shannon: Yes, bank actions are happening, as are actions around SB 1070 and Tucson's school district banning ethnic studies. Kelvin, your comments are helpful. Fingers awiggle, thanks. |
| Rowland: Todd you are thinking in an advertising, capturing consumers attention mindset. I urge you to look into what other alternative forms of politics exist in this world that dont depend on capturing diminishing attention of a multitude but take into account real peoples lives and what they need to survive and how to get it. For instance the green party has made their new platform exactly what you are articulating, they have adopted a mainstreamed occupy stance.. now how hopeful are we that this will make its way into the management of the country? Todd Gitlin: The cores of social movements sometimes fall in love with themselves. They bet too heavily on self-maintenance and not heavily enough on assessing the resources they command, the resources they need to command, the points of resistance that keep them from growing. This requires hard-headed appraisal, not just got hearts. | Rowland: Todd you are thinking in an advertising, capturing consumers attention mindset. I urge you to look into what other alternative forms of politics exist in this world that dont depend on capturing diminishing attention of a multitude but take into account real peoples lives and what they need to survive and how to get it. For instance the green party has made their new platform exactly what you are articulating, they have adopted a mainstreamed occupy stance.. now how hopeful are we that this will make its way into the management of the country? Todd Gitlin: The cores of social movements sometimes fall in love with themselves. They bet too heavily on self-maintenance and not heavily enough on assessing the resources they command, the resources they need to command, the points of resistance that keep them from growing. This requires hard-headed appraisal, not just got hearts. |
| Rowland, please read my book. I do not want to "capture consumers." I want to mobilize citizens. You can't ignore the people – they will determine the life and death of the movement! "Alternative forms of politics" are valuable when they mobilize people & plot strategies that make sense. Otherwise they are theological exercises. | Rowland, please read my book. I do not want to "capture consumers." I want to mobilize citizens. You can't ignore the people – they will determine the life and death of the movement! "Alternative forms of politics" are valuable when they mobilize people & plot strategies that make sense. Otherwise they are theological exercises. |
| David: I agree with your use of "accept" and "change", however, what I think the movement sought both to challenge and change was capitalism. I would argue this is an essential project if we are to address the pressing ecological and social crises facing us. I think this is a critical point within the context of evolutions. What kinds of changes are needed? How deep do they need to be? How much (if ever) did the existing political institutions work for the people of this country? I am excited that a debate on these issues is happening. It is a discussion that is long needed and happening at a very wide level. Kelvin Ho: I understand that – but I don't think pointing out the areas of self-obsession is enough to drive it towards change. People need to think creatively about how to harness the forms of self-love and momentum that have developed and redirect it towards other, unexplored avenues. | David: I agree with your use of "accept" and "change", however, what I think the movement sought both to challenge and change was capitalism. I would argue this is an essential project if we are to address the pressing ecological and social crises facing us. I think this is a critical point within the context of evolutions. What kinds of changes are needed? How deep do they need to be? How much (if ever) did the existing political institutions work for the people of this country? I am excited that a debate on these issues is happening. It is a discussion that is long needed and happening at a very wide level. Kelvin Ho: I understand that – but I don't think pointing out the areas of self-obsession is enough to drive it towards change. People need to think creatively about how to harness the forms of self-love and momentum that have developed and redirect it towards other, unexplored avenues. |
| Chitrangada Choudhury: Thanks David – just coming off from that, I am from India, where we have some limits put by the Election Commission on how much candidates can spend. Here in the US, Americans are now seeing the most expensive election campaign ever unfold around them. What does it mean for an electoral democracy's ability to respond to the kinds of issues Occupy has been raising, if such campaigns are here to stay | Chitrangada Choudhury: Thanks David – just coming off from that, I am from India, where we have some limits put by the Election Commission on how much candidates can spend. Here in the US, Americans are now seeing the most expensive election campaign ever unfold around them. What does it mean for an electoral democracy's ability to respond to the kinds of issues Occupy has been raising, if such campaigns are here to stay |
| David: It means that the electoral "democracy" that exists is completely unable to respond to the kinds of issues raised by the movement and the core crises facing our country and the world, if it ever was. It also means that we must begin to construct different forms of political institutions, that are rooted in our communities, which should be the places that make decisions that effect their lives. | David: It means that the electoral "democracy" that exists is completely unable to respond to the kinds of issues raised by the movement and the core crises facing our country and the world, if it ever was. It also means that we must begin to construct different forms of political institutions, that are rooted in our communities, which should be the places that make decisions that effect their lives. |
| Shannon: I'm personally engaged in an Occupy independent newspaper--we're getting ready to launch our first print issue--and here is where my problem lies: I don't know whether this is worth the effort. This goes to Todd's point about movements falling in love with themselves. I can't tell from my biased viewpoint whether the movement is viable enough to merit a newspaper in its name here in Tucson. I'm trying to do the hard-headed appraisal Todd mentions. It's very very hard. | Shannon: I'm personally engaged in an Occupy independent newspaper--we're getting ready to launch our first print issue--and here is where my problem lies: I don't know whether this is worth the effort. This goes to Todd's point about movements falling in love with themselves. I can't tell from my biased viewpoint whether the movement is viable enough to merit a newspaper in its name here in Tucson. I'm trying to do the hard-headed appraisal Todd mentions. It's very very hard. |
| Kelvin Ho: My prediction is that formal demands and any lasting victories that the Occupy movement will achieve will come from the various tentacle movement/organizations it has engendered. | Kelvin Ho: My prediction is that formal demands and any lasting victories that the Occupy movement will achieve will come from the various tentacle movement/organizations it has engendered. |
| Todd Gitlin: David, What do you mean by "capitalism"? All markets? Private ownership? Cooperatives? Labor-management codeterminations a la Germany? State capitalism? What made the Occupy movement win huge support last fall was not anti-capitalism; it was disgust with the depredations committed by finance capital & the plutocracy more generally. The focus must be on defeating the plutocracy. That's obviously very hard, but it's a whole lot more concrete than "changing capitalism." Remember also: Capitalism is an immensely flexible system that is constantly changing itself! | Todd Gitlin: David, What do you mean by "capitalism"? All markets? Private ownership? Cooperatives? Labor-management codeterminations a la Germany? State capitalism? What made the Occupy movement win huge support last fall was not anti-capitalism; it was disgust with the depredations committed by finance capital & the plutocracy more generally. The focus must be on defeating the plutocracy. That's obviously very hard, but it's a whole lot more concrete than "changing capitalism." Remember also: Capitalism is an immensely flexible system that is constantly changing itself! |
| David: Not the forum to get into definitions of capitalism, but in short I think that as long as communities do not control their resources and as long as profit is the dominant orientation of our society (both key features of capitalism) we will continue to hurtle towards the cliff. These things must change if we want a just and livable future. Chitrangada Choudhury: David/Shannon/Kelvin - what will the stance of your respective movements be towards the candidates in the November race, and their electorates... Kelvin Ho: I think the question of occupy's role in the election is an interesting and important one. I know many other fellow occupiers who've been wrestling with whether or not and how to best leverage an election year. One group for example is planning a 3-day action at Obama's headquarters one week prior to the DNC, attempting to highlight various failures of his presidency that haven't received much mention. Others, believe that people should continue to focus efforts on institutions like banks rather than either of the two parties. | David: Not the forum to get into definitions of capitalism, but in short I think that as long as communities do not control their resources and as long as profit is the dominant orientation of our society (both key features of capitalism) we will continue to hurtle towards the cliff. These things must change if we want a just and livable future. Chitrangada Choudhury: David/Shannon/Kelvin - what will the stance of your respective movements be towards the candidates in the November race, and their electorates... Kelvin Ho: I think the question of occupy's role in the election is an interesting and important one. I know many other fellow occupiers who've been wrestling with whether or not and how to best leverage an election year. One group for example is planning a 3-day action at Obama's headquarters one week prior to the DNC, attempting to highlight various failures of his presidency that haven't received much mention. Others, believe that people should continue to focus efforts on institutions like banks rather than either of the two parties. |
| Todd Gitlin: Chitra, It's because of the insane dependence of US elections on vast sums of money that I propose a long-term emphasis on ripping away the dominance of big contributors. But that's not to say that election outcomes don't matter. Tell it to John Roberts. | Todd Gitlin: Chitra, It's because of the insane dependence of US elections on vast sums of money that I propose a long-term emphasis on ripping away the dominance of big contributors. But that's not to say that election outcomes don't matter. Tell it to John Roberts. |
| Kelvin Ho: I'm personally not too optimistic about campaign finance reform as being the solution to the plutocratic state we live in. I think in the end money will find its way to those in power. For those seeking reforms within the system of capitalism I actually think corporate governance reform would be a better path to take. For example - in certain German corporations the board of directors partly consist of worker/union representatives - which greatly changes the types of incentives and motivations at stake - but that's just my own personal view. | Kelvin Ho: I'm personally not too optimistic about campaign finance reform as being the solution to the plutocratic state we live in. I think in the end money will find its way to those in power. For those seeking reforms within the system of capitalism I actually think corporate governance reform would be a better path to take. For example - in certain German corporations the board of directors partly consist of worker/union representatives - which greatly changes the types of incentives and motivations at stake - but that's just my own personal view. |
| Todd Gitlin: Kelvin, Highlighting Obama's failures is exactly what Romney is doing (though dishonestly). If Romney wins the election, you can absolutely forget about any control over banks for at least 4 years. If Obama wins, there's at least a possibility that popular protest can get some change--not just demand it but grow and get it. --But moreover, I'd like to hear more about what you mean by corporate governance reform & how to achieve it. A system of codetermination, as in Germany would have to be imposed by governments--I don't see the alternative. State governments, to start with. How to get that done? | Todd Gitlin: Kelvin, Highlighting Obama's failures is exactly what Romney is doing (though dishonestly). If Romney wins the election, you can absolutely forget about any control over banks for at least 4 years. If Obama wins, there's at least a possibility that popular protest can get some change--not just demand it but grow and get it. --But moreover, I'd like to hear more about what you mean by corporate governance reform & how to achieve it. A system of codetermination, as in Germany would have to be imposed by governments--I don't see the alternative. State governments, to start with. How to get that done? |
| Rowland: I am glad you have considered this, there is a lot of subtly and complexity to it and its an open question. as someone on the new york pr team i spend 99% of my thought and energy thinking about how to move people past thinking that the only means of progress is for things to harden into a constrained list of meetable demands, for a leader to emerge and for a platform to be established that isolates everything that doesnt underly it. I have talked to at least 60 people who want to be involved but say definitively that they will be at bay until they see something fixed and unchanging and THEN they will include themselves. | Rowland: I am glad you have considered this, there is a lot of subtly and complexity to it and its an open question. as someone on the new york pr team i spend 99% of my thought and energy thinking about how to move people past thinking that the only means of progress is for things to harden into a constrained list of meetable demands, for a leader to emerge and for a platform to be established that isolates everything that doesnt underly it. I have talked to at least 60 people who want to be involved but say definitively that they will be at bay until they see something fixed and unchanging and THEN they will include themselves. |
| Todd Gitlin: Rowland, not sure what you mean by "this," but if I follow you, the movement is destined to be a thrilling adventure for the hard core. Kelvin Ho: Honestly, the successful ones will have to fashion an independent movement of their own. My feeling, given the past social movements I've studied is that the Occupy movement is entangled in too many issues and demands for people to strategically and collectively direct their energy in a way that will produce change. That's not to say it's unimportant and has lost its importance. In fact, I think it's terribly important that it continues to thrive and evolve. It's done more to build grassroots/civil society organizations than any other movement I can think of in recent history. | Todd Gitlin: Rowland, not sure what you mean by "this," but if I follow you, the movement is destined to be a thrilling adventure for the hard core. Kelvin Ho: Honestly, the successful ones will have to fashion an independent movement of their own. My feeling, given the past social movements I've studied is that the Occupy movement is entangled in too many issues and demands for people to strategically and collectively direct their energy in a way that will produce change. That's not to say it's unimportant and has lost its importance. In fact, I think it's terribly important that it continues to thrive and evolve. It's done more to build grassroots/civil society organizations than any other movement I can think of in recent history. |
| Todd Gitlin: Agreed, Kelvin, about these huge successes. But it's not clear to me what you're proposing. Chitrangada Choudhury: Quoting from the book - It is not just a matter of what they want in the abstract, but of whom to trust, to affiliate with, to hang out with, to be moved by—and what, in specific circumstances, to do.. | Todd Gitlin: Agreed, Kelvin, about these huge successes. But it's not clear to me what you're proposing. Chitrangada Choudhury: Quoting from the book - It is not just a matter of what they want in the abstract, but of whom to trust, to affiliate with, to hang out with, to be moved by—and what, in specific circumstances, to do.. |
| Todd Gitlin: Exactly. Thank you. And there are 10,000 Americans who don't particularly want to participate in *any* politics for every one who wants to attend GA meetings. As opposed to India, for example. I happened to be there during the election of 2005. I saw vast parades of party supporters--a great spectacle that people threw themselves into. (This was what politics was like in the US north in the second half of the 19th century, btw.) David: That is an interesting quote. In the context of the elections I think the orientation of the movement was very much to trust each other, not politicians or the President, to affiliate with our communities, not distant capitals (economic or political), and to be moved by each other to shape the future we want and not appeal to politicians or the President to do it for us. Are you suggesting that American politics and participation in the second half of the 19th century were desirable? | Todd Gitlin: Exactly. Thank you. And there are 10,000 Americans who don't particularly want to participate in *any* politics for every one who wants to attend GA meetings. As opposed to India, for example. I happened to be there during the election of 2005. I saw vast parades of party supporters--a great spectacle that people threw themselves into. (This was what politics was like in the US north in the second half of the 19th century, btw.) David: That is an interesting quote. In the context of the elections I think the orientation of the movement was very much to trust each other, not politicians or the President, to affiliate with our communities, not distant capitals (economic or political), and to be moved by each other to shape the future we want and not appeal to politicians or the President to do it for us. Are you suggesting that American politics and participation in the second half of the 19th century were desirable? |
| Todd Gitlin: But David, trust each other to do what? What does it mean to "affiliate with our communities"? If I fight for a charter, I trust people who will fight with me. We may disagree about 1000 other things, but our solidarity is concrete. We fight, we win, we lose, we love, we suffer, we exult--& we learn. We don't *appeal* to politicians--we compel them by action. David, That particular feature of late 19th century US politics was in fact excellent. Many other features of course were horrific. | Todd Gitlin: But David, trust each other to do what? What does it mean to "affiliate with our communities"? If I fight for a charter, I trust people who will fight with me. We may disagree about 1000 other things, but our solidarity is concrete. We fight, we win, we lose, we love, we suffer, we exult--& we learn. We don't *appeal* to politicians--we compel them by action. David, That particular feature of late 19th century US politics was in fact excellent. Many other features of course were horrific. |
Shannon: But how do the tentacle organizations/affinity groups keep up their momentum within a movement that's seen by the general public as "over?" | Shannon: But how do the tentacle organizations/affinity groups keep up their momentum within a movement that's seen by the general public as "over?" |
| Kelvin Ho: Shannon, my point is that they can't rely completely on the "Occupy" movement to sustain themselves. I think Occupy can produce the initial thrust and generate an initial base of supporters - but after that I think the organizations will have to figure out their own individual path. Much like the Occupy Our Homes movement did. | Kelvin Ho: Shannon, my point is that they can't rely completely on the "Occupy" movement to sustain themselves. I think Occupy can produce the initial thrust and generate an initial base of supporters - but after that I think the organizations will have to figure out their own individual path. Much like the Occupy Our Homes movement did. |
| Shannon: I'm personally engaged in an Occupy independent newspaper--we're getting ready to launch our first print issue--and here is where my problem lies: I don't know whether this is worth the effort. This goes to Todd's point about movements falling in love with themselves. I can't tell from my biased viewpoint whether the movement is viable enough to merit a newspaper in its name here in Tucson. | Shannon: I'm personally engaged in an Occupy independent newspaper--we're getting ready to launch our first print issue--and here is where my problem lies: I don't know whether this is worth the effort. This goes to Todd's point about movements falling in love with themselves. I can't tell from my biased viewpoint whether the movement is viable enough to merit a newspaper in its name here in Tucson. |
David: I'd like to answer Shannon's question as well. In Portland there has been an extraordinary networking that has happened between politically engaged and activated individuals and groups. This has been enormously productive. I think the important thing is to create forums (that may well not be oriented to making decision) to continue conversations, relationship building, etc. Our work may go in slightly different directions in this in between time, but these relationships, reflection and connections will form the basis of powerful movements in future moments like last fall. Additionally, important synergies can be found for strategic work that can build towards the type of radical change, that at least those I work with in Portland want to see. | David: I'd like to answer Shannon's question as well. In Portland there has been an extraordinary networking that has happened between politically engaged and activated individuals and groups. This has been enormously productive. I think the important thing is to create forums (that may well not be oriented to making decision) to continue conversations, relationship building, etc. Our work may go in slightly different directions in this in between time, but these relationships, reflection and connections will form the basis of powerful movements in future moments like last fall. Additionally, important synergies can be found for strategic work that can build towards the type of radical change, that at least those I work with in Portland want to see. |
| Shannon: OK, Kelvin. But what about the word OCCUPY? Does this now hinder our efforts for radical social change? And I'm not talking about NYC or Oakland. I'm in a flyover state. A crazy crazy state. | Shannon: OK, Kelvin. But what about the word OCCUPY? Does this now hinder our efforts for radical social change? And I'm not talking about NYC or Oakland. I'm in a flyover state. A crazy crazy state. |
Todd Gitlin: Shannon, About the newspaper, you know your community far better than I. I would ask my relatives, my friends, everyone I can get my hand on whether they think the term "Occupy" has become a turn-off. If they say yes, that's not necessarily decisive, but one shouldn't be contemptuous of that feeling either. | Todd Gitlin: Shannon, About the newspaper, you know your community far better than I. I would ask my relatives, my friends, everyone I can get my hand on whether they think the term "Occupy" has become a turn-off. If they say yes, that's not necessarily decisive, but one shouldn't be contemptuous of that feeling either. |
| David: I think it is a complicated answer, but on the whole and to outreach to the general public, especially in your part of the country, yes I think it hinders our efforts. There was a sustained media attack against that word that did a lot of damage. Just this week the weekly paper here published an article claiming the camps of last fall created a massive rat infestation in downtown Portland. I also agree with Todd on getting feedback from folks in your community about the answer to that question. Ask those who you'd want to read the newspaper and see what they say. | David: I think it is a complicated answer, but on the whole and to outreach to the general public, especially in your part of the country, yes I think it hinders our efforts. There was a sustained media attack against that word that did a lot of damage. Just this week the weekly paper here published an article claiming the camps of last fall created a massive rat infestation in downtown Portland. I also agree with Todd on getting feedback from folks in your community about the answer to that question. Ask those who you'd want to read the newspaper and see what they say. |
| Kelvin Ho: I'll give you a concrete example Shannon, here in Chicago there is exciting momentum building around the issues of public education. The teachers are currently battling with the city over extending schools hours without allocating additional funding. The labor outreach working group of Occupy Chicago immediately jumped on to this and helped formed a Chicago Teachers solidarity campaign that's working to not only generate awareness about the teachers struggle but also highlight various issues in the public education system here. I don't think this campaign (where over 100 people showed up to in the first meeting) would have been possible if the labor group had not worked to build connections with dozens of local union rank and file and organizers over the past year. | Kelvin Ho: I'll give you a concrete example Shannon, here in Chicago there is exciting momentum building around the issues of public education. The teachers are currently battling with the city over extending schools hours without allocating additional funding. The labor outreach working group of Occupy Chicago immediately jumped on to this and helped formed a Chicago Teachers solidarity campaign that's working to not only generate awareness about the teachers struggle but also highlight various issues in the public education system here. I don't think this campaign (where over 100 people showed up to in the first meeting) would have been possible if the labor group had not worked to build connections with dozens of local union rank and file and organizers over the past year. |
Todd Gitlin: PS to Shannon: What if the paper were called DECENCY or AMERICAN REBIRTH or JUSTICE?. Just thinking aloud. | Todd Gitlin: PS to Shannon: What if the paper were called DECENCY or AMERICAN REBIRTH or JUSTICE?. Just thinking aloud. |
| Shannon: David, yes--networking, new connections are happening and have happened here in Tucson, too. And sure, this is a long haul thing. Todd, yes, we've of course talked to friends, family, acquaintances & people on the street. Ad nauseum. So maybe I'm getting my answer here--the answer is that there really is no answer. | Shannon: David, yes--networking, new connections are happening and have happened here in Tucson, too. And sure, this is a long haul thing. Todd, yes, we've of course talked to friends, family, acquaintances & people on the street. Ad nauseum. So maybe I'm getting my answer here--the answer is that there really is no answer. |
| Todd Gitlin: What are these people telling you, Shannon? | Todd Gitlin: What are these people telling you, Shannon? |
| Shannon: Todd--yes, this is the question exactly. To retain the Occupy brand or to move on with a different name. What the name will be isn't the question...it's whether to change it and thereby to distance ourselves from the movement. | Shannon: Todd--yes, this is the question exactly. To retain the Occupy brand or to move on with a different name. What the name will be isn't the question...it's whether to change it and thereby to distance ourselves from the movement. |
| Chitrangada Choudhury: Thanks for raising that Kelvin Todd Gitlin: Kelvin, I agree about this campaign & also heard good things last winter about labor-Occupy collaborations in Chicago. I still don't think that strong local activities make up for lack of a national thrust. | Chitrangada Choudhury: Thanks for raising that Kelvin Todd Gitlin: Kelvin, I agree about this campaign & also heard good things last winter about labor-Occupy collaborations in Chicago. I still don't think that strong local activities make up for lack of a national thrust. |
| Rowland: The central tenant of all this is people waiting for politics to happen and then declaring affiliation or allegiance. OR making politics happen. considering it an embodiment of them, who they are and what they want. what must be. There are many leftists who are on the cusp of understanding what it means to be an anarchist but they are just not there. your village is dying of thist, do you petition the governor to build a well and for this to be taken up in the existing mechanism of decision making and survival or do you get some friends together and go build one yourself. | Rowland: The central tenant of all this is people waiting for politics to happen and then declaring affiliation or allegiance. OR making politics happen. considering it an embodiment of them, who they are and what they want. what must be. There are many leftists who are on the cusp of understanding what it means to be an anarchist but they are just not there. your village is dying of thist, do you petition the governor to build a well and for this to be taken up in the existing mechanism of decision making and survival or do you get some friends together and go build one yourself. |
| Shannon: Yes, I hear you, guys. Maybe the problem is one of a mid-sized city. Which badly needs, as you say, Todd, a national thrust, to maintain local legitimacy. | Shannon: Yes, I hear you, guys. Maybe the problem is one of a mid-sized city. Which badly needs, as you say, Todd, a national thrust, to maintain local legitimacy. |
| Rowland: yes, the declaration of affiliation to a movement is maybe what I'm struggling with here. | Rowland: yes, the declaration of affiliation to a movement is maybe what I'm struggling with here. |
| Kelvin Ho: On the national picture there's also a lot to be optimistic about. I used to work with a local community organization prior to Occupy. It's now part of a national network of community groups that spans over 20 different states (this is the same network that provided a lot of the momentum for the 99 spring trainings/shareholder actions). It's going to take a lot of time and agitation - but they're now rallying around targeted campaigns such as pushing the attorney's general task force to push for a massive write down of mortgage debt nationwide. | Kelvin Ho: On the national picture there's also a lot to be optimistic about. I used to work with a local community organization prior to Occupy. It's now part of a national network of community groups that spans over 20 different states (this is the same network that provided a lot of the momentum for the 99 spring trainings/shareholder actions). It's going to take a lot of time and agitation - but they're now rallying around targeted campaigns such as pushing the attorney's general task force to push for a massive write down of mortgage debt nationwide. |
| Todd Gitlin: Chitra, The media are action-hounds, fireflies. They resent movements because they don't understand them. You can't be crippled by their inattention, but you have to be strategic at the same time. You need your own media, of course, & social media can be very helpful, but you do not to produce events from time to time that play well. There's nothing shameful about recognizing that political life is irreducibly partly theatrical. But the play has to be good! | Todd Gitlin: Chitra, The media are action-hounds, fireflies. They resent movements because they don't understand them. You can't be crippled by their inattention, but you have to be strategic at the same time. You need your own media, of course, & social media can be very helpful, but you do not to produce events from time to time that play well. There's nothing shameful about recognizing that political life is irreducibly partly theatrical. But the play has to be good! |
| David: I agree Rowland. Occupy was the beginning, as you point out in the evolution of political consciousness, of waking up to the fact that the existing political institutions are worthless for addressing the challenges confronting our communities. This was viscerally felt by people and they acted. Now we are in a process of understand the nature and source of these feelings and where to go with them. | David: I agree Rowland. Occupy was the beginning, as you point out in the evolution of political consciousness, of waking up to the fact that the existing political institutions are worthless for addressing the challenges confronting our communities. This was viscerally felt by people and they acted. Now we are in a process of understand the nature and source of these feelings and where to go with them. |
ginger baker: if occupy wall st plans to stick around after the election of 2012 it has to articulate its distance from the two party system, both dems and reps, both obama and romney. | ginger baker: if occupy wall st plans to stick around after the election of 2012 it has to articulate its distance from the two party system, both dems and reps, both obama and romney. |
| Todd Gitlin: Ginger, I say articulating distance is not a political program, it's a theological one. | Todd Gitlin: Ginger, I say articulating distance is not a political program, it's a theological one. |
| Kelvin Ho: I don't think there's a right/wrong decision about whether or not one should affiliate themselves with the movement. I think that writing for an audience that is sympathetic to Occupy versus one that is not are of course two different things. In the end however, I think that there is a time and place for both. I think a similar national campaign can eventually form around the issue of student debt/high education in this country. That, however will take a much longer time. The people organizing around foreclosures/banks have been organizing for a couple years now and it took a long time to build up this larger national network. | Kelvin Ho: I don't think there's a right/wrong decision about whether or not one should affiliate themselves with the movement. I think that writing for an audience that is sympathetic to Occupy versus one that is not are of course two different things. In the end however, I think that there is a time and place for both. I think a similar national campaign can eventually form around the issue of student debt/high education in this country. That, however will take a much longer time. The people organizing around foreclosures/banks have been organizing for a couple years now and it took a long time to build up this larger national network. |
| David: But building political institutions outside of the electoral system is a political program. | David: But building political institutions outside of the electoral system is a political program. |
| ginger baker: i thought you would dismiss that idea, mr. gitlin. do you therefore think occupy wall st. should therefore be in the tank for obama and co.? | ginger baker: i thought you would dismiss that idea, mr. gitlin. do you therefore think occupy wall st. should therefore be in the tank for obama and co.? |
| Todd Gitlin: The only tank I want to be in is (a) a nonviolent one that (b) improves the prospects for people's capacity to affect the terms of their lives. | |
| Rowland: "understanding what it means to be an anarchist"--Yes if this means organizing an Occupy bank. (There are OWS activists working on this.) No if it means that somebody has to sign an anarchist pledge of allegiance before being invited to help save somebody's house, or to campaign for a Robin Hood tax. | |
| Nancy: Hi Mr Gitlin. Thanks for doing this livechat. Do you think Occupy should reach out to more established political parties like the Greens and vice versa? I see some similarities in their central tenants. | Nancy: Hi Mr Gitlin. Thanks for doing this livechat. Do you think Occupy should reach out to more established political parties like the Greens and vice versa? I see some similarities in their central tenants. |
Kelvin Ho: The Occupy movement will probably never ally with Obama (regardless of what my personal opinions on that are). Neither will it, in the near future. ally with the Green Party. That's not to say their couldn't be informal cooperation of course. | David: Do not ally with Obama. He is not on our side. Do not keep distance from everyone, rather build organizations and power with each other outside of the electoral system. Kelvin Ho: The Occupy movement will probably never ally with Obama (regardless of what my personal opinions on that are). Neither will it, in the near future. ally with the Green Party. That's not to say their couldn't be informal cooperation of course. |
| Todd Gitlin: If the Greens are willing to support a specific charter of demands along the above lines, I have no objection to working with them at the local level. At the national level, though, the Constitutional system is rigged against electoral payoff. Why run into a brick wall? Chitrangada Choudhury: I remember speaking to young Americans marching in the October 5 march in NYC last year who had worked on Obama's 2008 campaign and subsequently felt let down | Todd Gitlin: If the Greens are willing to support a specific charter of demands along the above lines, I have no objection to working with them at the local level. At the national level, though, the Constitutional system is rigged against electoral payoff. Why run into a brick wall? Chitrangada Choudhury: I remember speaking to young Americans marching in the October 5 march in NYC last year who had worked on Obama's 2008 campaign and subsequently felt let down |
| Kelvin Ho: There are a wealth of disillusioned ex-Obama backers in the movement. We had more than enough speakers at Obama Hq when we went from the Boeing HQ to Obama during NATO to target the military industrial complex. I think that Occupy's best bet leading up the november election year is trying to coordinate a series of actions focused on issues that speak to the vast majority of the American public. That's probably the most it could do. I don't see it rallying around a particular political platform of its own anytime soon. | Kelvin Ho: There are a wealth of disillusioned ex-Obama backers in the movement. We had more than enough speakers at Obama Hq when we went from the Boeing HQ to Obama during NATO to target the military industrial complex. I think that Occupy's best bet leading up the november election year is trying to coordinate a series of actions focused on issues that speak to the vast majority of the American public. That's probably the most it could do. I don't see it rallying around a particular political platform of its own anytime soon. |
| Todd Gitlin: Chitra, I too met such people on Oct 5! Knocking on doors is one thing an activist does. Not the only thing, but one thing. Nothing shameful about availing ourselves of opportunities that exist. But squeamishness about participating in electoral politics is like squeamishness about internal combustion engines. Never use them as you won't get to the meetings where you're organizing your independent bank. Then what? | Todd Gitlin: Chitra, I too met such people on Oct 5! Knocking on doors is one thing an activist does. Not the only thing, but one thing. Nothing shameful about availing ourselves of opportunities that exist. But squeamishness about participating in electoral politics is like squeamishness about internal combustion engines. Never use them as you won't get to the meetings where you're organizing your independent bank. Then what? |
| ginger baker: short term strategy should be, in my view, to steer clear of the election of 2012. It will be hard to do however, I admit, given the hoopla likely to come its way very soon.. | ginger baker: short term strategy should be, in my view, to steer clear of the election of 2012. It will be hard to do however, I admit, given the hoopla likely to come its way very soon.. |
| Todd Gitlin: I agree with Kelvin about expectations. But the Occupy movement is not called upon to ally with anyone. It's called upon to size up the real world and figure out how to build its power. Do you think a Romney government will help? ginger baker: ows should engage long term through political education about both parties. c'mon, mr.gitlin, your new left cred is on the line... | Todd Gitlin: I agree with Kelvin about expectations. But the Occupy movement is not called upon to ally with anyone. It's called upon to size up the real world and figure out how to build its power. Do you think a Romney government will help? ginger baker: ows should engage long term through political education about both parties. c'mon, mr.gitlin, your new left cred is on the line... |
| Todd Gitlin: Political education about the parties, sure. But we might disagree about the content of that education! Then what? | Todd Gitlin: Political education about the parties, sure. But we might disagree about the content of that education! Then what? |
| David: That assumes that there are no alternatives to either electoral politics or internal combustion engines, when in fact there are alternatives to both that we should be actively pursuing. Do you use them occasionally on the way, yes, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we are fundamentally trying to build something else. | David: That assumes that there are no alternatives to either electoral politics or internal combustion engines, when in fact there are alternatives to both that we should be actively pursuing. Do you use them occasionally on the way, yes, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we are fundamentally trying to build something else. |
| Kelvin Ho: I actually think that the problem of coordinating actions isn't so much with finding what issues we can get different Occupies to rally around - it's actually a more pragmatic issue of who's willing to put in the work to organize occupiers nation wide around a particular set of actions. It takes a lot of time and hard work but it's definitely doable. But yes, we should talk about strategically nationwide, what issues would make the most sense. I have ideas, but I don't know the right answer. | Kelvin Ho: I actually think that the problem of coordinating actions isn't so much with finding what issues we can get different Occupies to rally around - it's actually a more pragmatic issue of who's willing to put in the work to organize occupiers nation wide around a particular set of actions. It takes a lot of time and hard work but it's definitely doable. But yes, we should talk about strategically nationwide, what issues would make the most sense. I have ideas, but I don't know the right answer. |
| David: I agree with Kevin, especially as someone that worked super hard to organize the anti-ALEC actions on February 29th in which some 85 cities participated. | David: I agree with Kevin, especially as someone that worked super hard to organize the anti-ALEC actions on February 29th in which some 85 cities participated. |
| Todd Gitlin: David, in fact, there are *right now* few alternatives, and if the meeting is taking place *right now,* well, you have to make a choice. Of course we are trying to keep our eyes on the prize. But the next long of that great freedom-movement song is: Hold on. Holding on includes realizing that people have to eat (get to meetings, etc.) while living in advance of the millennium. | Todd Gitlin: David, in fact, there are *right now* few alternatives, and if the meeting is taking place *right now,* well, you have to make a choice. Of course we are trying to keep our eyes on the prize. But the next long of that great freedom-movement song is: Hold on. Holding on includes realizing that people have to eat (get to meetings, etc.) while living in advance of the millennium. |
| ginger baker: c'mon, mr. gitlin, think it through. you know ows doesnt have a chance after 2012 if it compromises for "the lesser of the two evil" it has to articulate clear distance from the two-party scheme. Both parties have failed. A more radical alternative, long-term it may be, has to get off the ground. | ginger baker: c'mon, mr. gitlin, think it through. you know ows doesnt have a chance after 2012 if it compromises for "the lesser of the two evil" it has to articulate clear distance from the two-party scheme. Both parties have failed. A more radical alternative, long-term it may be, has to get off the ground. |
| Todd Gitlin: David, about elections, I'm only speaking about "occasionally on the way." But occasionally is not never. No clean hands. Btw, the anti-ALEC campaign was excellent--targeted & effective. We need more of such. | Todd Gitlin: David, about elections, I'm only speaking about "occasionally on the way." But occasionally is not never. No clean hands. Btw, the anti-ALEC campaign was excellent--targeted & effective. We need more of such. |
| Kelvin Ho: I think that there is still tremendous anger around the banks and financial institutions. It'd be interesting to see what the public reaction is if there can be a coordinated set of actions targetting a particular bank (BofA or Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac for example) while the network of community/labor groups puts out a demand to write down mortgages. The messaging will be important though, cause Obama is also trying to harness the anger towards bank for his causes. People will need to think about what sort of message/demands is one that he can't weasel out of. | Kelvin Ho: I think that there is still tremendous anger around the banks and financial institutions. It'd be interesting to see what the public reaction is if there can be a coordinated set of actions targetting a particular bank (BofA or Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac for example) while the network of community/labor groups puts out a demand to write down mortgages. The messaging will be important though, cause Obama is also trying to harness the anger towards bank for his causes. People will need to think about what sort of message/demands is one that he can't weasel out of. |
David: Thanks everyone. I enjoyed the conversation. I hope that those readers participating in the conversation found it | Chitrangada Choudhury: I am sorry but we are at the end of our hour, and will have to wrap up the conversation on that note. Thank you to all our panelists for joining us. And to the readers who added their voices to the conversation too - lots of big questions raised David: Thanks everyone. I enjoyed the conversation. I hope that those readers participating in the conversation found it useful. |
| Todd Gitlin: Thank you massively for doing this! | |
| Kelvin Ho: Thank you everyone. | Kelvin Ho: Thank you everyone. |