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| Courtroom profiles: 'I think the lives of all of us have changed' | Courtroom profiles: 'I think the lives of all of us have changed' |
| (9 months later) | |
| A full-time district judge | A full-time district judge |
| Certainly there were delays in papers arriving and delays in lawyers arriving. I also remember that prisoners were not arriving at the beginning of the day, they were arriving throughout the day, whereas normally in a fast-moving court there is efficiency and you deal with prisoners in a fair but businesslike way. | Certainly there were delays in papers arriving and delays in lawyers arriving. I also remember that prisoners were not arriving at the beginning of the day, they were arriving throughout the day, whereas normally in a fast-moving court there is efficiency and you deal with prisoners in a fair but businesslike way. |
| Judges don't live in another world. We're not devoid of reality. But where you have continuing disorder your analysis of risk may be different. | Judges don't live in another world. We're not devoid of reality. But where you have continuing disorder your analysis of risk may be different. |
| It was all hands on deck. Files weren't as good as they should have been. One would have expected better quality statements, better justification for opposing bail. But it is understandable. | It was all hands on deck. Files weren't as good as they should have been. One would have expected better quality statements, better justification for opposing bail. But it is understandable. |
| Overall, I think the courts did a good job in a very difficult situation. We were doing the job that needed to be done. It wasn't perfect. The system is not designed to cope with that blip, but that's England all over, isn't it? | Overall, I think the courts did a good job in a very difficult situation. We were doing the job that needed to be done. It wasn't perfect. The system is not designed to cope with that blip, but that's England all over, isn't it? |
| Some of the usual suspects are just thieves, but some of the handlers will never do it again, I have no doubt about that. That's the real harshness of deterrent sentencing. There is a group of offenders for whom this is a one-off offence. They never did it before and they will never do it again. And they were given deterrent sentences because a bigger approach to sentencing was taken beyond that individual. Why did they do it? I have no idea at all. | Some of the usual suspects are just thieves, but some of the handlers will never do it again, I have no doubt about that. That's the real harshness of deterrent sentencing. There is a group of offenders for whom this is a one-off offence. They never did it before and they will never do it again. And they were given deterrent sentences because a bigger approach to sentencing was taken beyond that individual. Why did they do it? I have no idea at all. |
| Do I feel sorry for some people? God, do I! For certain offenders, they had really, really harsh sentences. On a human one-to-one level you feel these guys so out of their character … some of them with positively good character – they'd done charity work. Part of the learning of this is that there are people who only get dragged in because they are there. But were they innocent people? Well, no. You're not an innocent person if you go into a shop and help yourself to things that aren't yours at three o'clock in the morning. | Do I feel sorry for some people? God, do I! For certain offenders, they had really, really harsh sentences. On a human one-to-one level you feel these guys so out of their character … some of them with positively good character – they'd done charity work. Part of the learning of this is that there are people who only get dragged in because they are there. But were they innocent people? Well, no. You're not an innocent person if you go into a shop and help yourself to things that aren't yours at three o'clock in the morning. |
| You're only a human being, and when you hear mitigation you are torn sometimes. It is very, very difficult. These are very difficult decisions to make, and I haven't found them at all easy. We now have the benefit of hindsight. It's very easy in the calm of day now, but we were gripped with night after night of disorder, and it was serious. In the midst of that you had to make a decision in relation to that moment. | You're only a human being, and when you hear mitigation you are torn sometimes. It is very, very difficult. These are very difficult decisions to make, and I haven't found them at all easy. We now have the benefit of hindsight. It's very easy in the calm of day now, but we were gripped with night after night of disorder, and it was serious. In the midst of that you had to make a decision in relation to that moment. |
| I've not encountered something like this in my court, so I have no experience on a personal level of this sort of scenario. I've never lived in Brixton, I've never lived in Wandsworth. I've never lived in communities where this has happened before. So my evaluation of risk was based on what I saw during the first few days. | I've not encountered something like this in my court, so I have no experience on a personal level of this sort of scenario. I've never lived in Brixton, I've never lived in Wandsworth. I've never lived in communities where this has happened before. So my evaluation of risk was based on what I saw during the first few days. |
| What happened is going to have a profound impact on everyone, not least those who received deterrent sentences. It would be unrealistic to say it's not going to change their lives. But it's not only their lives that have changed. I think the lives of all of us have changed. We saw something we didn't think we'd see. | What happened is going to have a profound impact on everyone, not least those who received deterrent sentences. It would be unrealistic to say it's not going to change their lives. But it's not only their lives that have changed. I think the lives of all of us have changed. We saw something we didn't think we'd see. |
| Martin Lindop, a sector crown prosecutor in Birmingham. He has worked for the Crown Prosecution Service for 20 years | Martin Lindop, a sector crown prosecutor in Birmingham. He has worked for the Crown Prosecution Service for 20 years |
| [The Solihull night court] was a bit chaotic, I'd have to say. There were either bodies and no papers to go with them, or papers and no bodies, and they [prisoners] were being brought from all over. The reality of the situation, certainly on the first night, was that normal law and order had broken down, that the mob had taken charge of Birmingham city centre, and the police had not been able to contain it necessarily. So, yes, here was a breakdown of law and order and you were in the court actually trying to put the lid back on what had started to happen. | [The Solihull night court] was a bit chaotic, I'd have to say. There were either bodies and no papers to go with them, or papers and no bodies, and they [prisoners] were being brought from all over. The reality of the situation, certainly on the first night, was that normal law and order had broken down, that the mob had taken charge of Birmingham city centre, and the police had not been able to contain it necessarily. So, yes, here was a breakdown of law and order and you were in the court actually trying to put the lid back on what had started to happen. |
| I think the very first case on was a 14- or 15-year-old who'd taken, I think it was something like two packets of Fruit Pastilles and a can of Coke from a small store in the city centre. He pleaded guilty and was remitted back then to Birmingham youth court to be sentenced. He was bailed, because by virtue of his age he could not have been [remanded in custody] for that offence. | I think the very first case on was a 14- or 15-year-old who'd taken, I think it was something like two packets of Fruit Pastilles and a can of Coke from a small store in the city centre. He pleaded guilty and was remitted back then to Birmingham youth court to be sentenced. He was bailed, because by virtue of his age he could not have been [remanded in custody] for that offence. |
| It was charged as burglary, but I remember overhearing a conversation between his dad and the solicitor standing outside: "Why is this not just shoplifting? Why is it burglary?" And you're thinking: well, hang on, they've smashed the door of the shop down. Shoplifters don't normally smash doors to get in. I think this lad, he was the tail-end Charlie. The group had gone in, stripped the place of anything worthwhile and he'd then wandered in afterwards. The trouble is the police came down and he was the one wandering out through the broken door with a couple of packets of sweets in his pockets. | It was charged as burglary, but I remember overhearing a conversation between his dad and the solicitor standing outside: "Why is this not just shoplifting? Why is it burglary?" And you're thinking: well, hang on, they've smashed the door of the shop down. Shoplifters don't normally smash doors to get in. I think this lad, he was the tail-end Charlie. The group had gone in, stripped the place of anything worthwhile and he'd then wandered in afterwards. The trouble is the police came down and he was the one wandering out through the broken door with a couple of packets of sweets in his pockets. |
| To me, it just reflected the view I had of this, that a lot of it – well most of it, I think – in Birmingham was greed. It was people deciding that here is an opportunity to take stuff that they wouldn't be otherwise able to afford, or just to go out and take anything because it seemed to be a free-for-all. Can't say I had very much sympathy. | To me, it just reflected the view I had of this, that a lot of it – well most of it, I think – in Birmingham was greed. It was people deciding that here is an opportunity to take stuff that they wouldn't be otherwise able to afford, or just to go out and take anything because it seemed to be a free-for-all. Can't say I had very much sympathy. |
| I was running on adrenaline on the [following day] and went right through the day. The poor prosecutor who took over from me at midnight had got a trial court that morning so he finished at about quarter to five, went home and then was doing a trial at Nuneaton magistrates court at 10 o'clock that morning. But he's younger than I am. | I was running on adrenaline on the [following day] and went right through the day. The poor prosecutor who took over from me at midnight had got a trial court that morning so he finished at about quarter to five, went home and then was doing a trial at Nuneaton magistrates court at 10 o'clock that morning. But he's younger than I am. |
| A homeless woman who was given a custodial sentence for looting after she handed herself in to police | A homeless woman who was given a custodial sentence for looting after she handed herself in to police |
| When we started to come out the town centre, we saw there was loads of people just rushing, and gangs, and everyone was just running and most of the shop windows had already been broken by then. | When we started to come out the town centre, we saw there was loads of people just rushing, and gangs, and everyone was just running and most of the shop windows had already been broken by then. |
| I turned round and said: "I'm going into one," and he [her husband] was trying to persuade me not to, but I just ran off and left him. There was a shop that I knew of because I've been in there a couple of times before and I knew they sold costume jewellery and stuff. So I saw that was already open, there was a few people going into there, so I just joined them, and I went in and took some items. | I turned round and said: "I'm going into one," and he [her husband] was trying to persuade me not to, but I just ran off and left him. There was a shop that I knew of because I've been in there a couple of times before and I knew they sold costume jewellery and stuff. So I saw that was already open, there was a few people going into there, so I just joined them, and I went in and took some items. |
| I didn't cover up or anything. I was a bit worse for wear [through drink] and it was kinda like the excitement of it. I thought, there's so many people here and what I'm carrying, it's not very large and it's not noticeable. So I thought I would be the least of the people to get caught. | I didn't cover up or anything. I was a bit worse for wear [through drink] and it was kinda like the excitement of it. I thought, there's so many people here and what I'm carrying, it's not very large and it's not noticeable. So I thought I would be the least of the people to get caught. |
| But then I handed myself in. I felt guilty because I saw the aftermath. I saw the devastation of what happened and I didn't feel good about myself. I told my husband, and we had another argument. We argued all the way to the police station, and was outside the police station for about an hour before he would let me go in. I saw two police officers entering the police station and I said to them: "What do you do when you know someone who has been involved in the riots?" And they said: "Well, tell them to come and hand themselves in." | But then I handed myself in. I felt guilty because I saw the aftermath. I saw the devastation of what happened and I didn't feel good about myself. I told my husband, and we had another argument. We argued all the way to the police station, and was outside the police station for about an hour before he would let me go in. I saw two police officers entering the police station and I said to them: "What do you do when you know someone who has been involved in the riots?" And they said: "Well, tell them to come and hand themselves in." |
| They asked me who it was and I said: "It's myself." My husband turned around and said, because I was suffering from depression at the time: "Oh, she's mentally ill. She doesn't know what she's saying." And I asked the police officers to escort me into the police station and my husband followed. I went to the main desk, said to them that I was involved in the riots and I've come to hand myself in. And they took me round the back and interviewed me. | They asked me who it was and I said: "It's myself." My husband turned around and said, because I was suffering from depression at the time: "Oh, she's mentally ill. She doesn't know what she's saying." And I asked the police officers to escort me into the police station and my husband followed. I went to the main desk, said to them that I was involved in the riots and I've come to hand myself in. And they took me round the back and interviewed me. |
| A 27-year-old junior barrister who worked at a magistrates night court in London | A 27-year-old junior barrister who worked at a magistrates night court in London |
| There was a blitz spirit amongst the lawyers, custody staff and court staff. But as the night wore on, tempers frayed. Some people had been working since seven o'clock the previous morning. I remember on the first night that two custody staff almost came to blows, and that's bearing in mind that there were a load of police officers standing right there. | There was a blitz spirit amongst the lawyers, custody staff and court staff. But as the night wore on, tempers frayed. Some people had been working since seven o'clock the previous morning. I remember on the first night that two custody staff almost came to blows, and that's bearing in mind that there were a load of police officers standing right there. |
| You'd have the defendant there, and the lawyer would be there and the court staff, and the judge and custody staff, but there wouldn't be any papers. One of the things that would be required to have a successful hearing of any sort would be missing. So it was deeply frustrating. | You'd have the defendant there, and the lawyer would be there and the court staff, and the judge and custody staff, but there wouldn't be any papers. One of the things that would be required to have a successful hearing of any sort would be missing. So it was deeply frustrating. |
| On the first night I didn't see anyone get bail. I think the courts were concerned that night they didn't release people whilst the disorder was going on, that people might then go out and join in again. | On the first night I didn't see anyone get bail. I think the courts were concerned that night they didn't release people whilst the disorder was going on, that people might then go out and join in again. |
| No client of mine pleaded guilty on the day. In my view it would have been better to have seen how the land lay with the sentencing. Wait to see what the full evidence is before you make a huge decision that could leave you in prison for years. You wouldn't want to do that in the middle of the night with a tired lawyer without having time to think about it properly. | No client of mine pleaded guilty on the day. In my view it would have been better to have seen how the land lay with the sentencing. Wait to see what the full evidence is before you make a huge decision that could leave you in prison for years. You wouldn't want to do that in the middle of the night with a tired lawyer without having time to think about it properly. |
| The absence of family members at court was striking. Perhaps because there were extraordinary circumstances and there was a lot of confusion. Or perhaps there wasn't anyone who could come or wanted to come. | The absence of family members at court was striking. Perhaps because there were extraordinary circumstances and there was a lot of confusion. Or perhaps there wasn't anyone who could come or wanted to come. |
| The first I heard about the riots [was] on the Saturday night, I was out with some friends. Four guys on bikes were going down the middle of the road, which was a bit odd as there was quite a bit of traffic, shouting: "Tottenham's burning, Tottenham's burning." We'd had a few drinks and we were like: "What do you mean?" I just laughed and carried on the night. The next day, I watched it on the news. I'll never forget that guy saying: "Tottenham's burning, Tottenham's burning." | The first I heard about the riots [was] on the Saturday night, I was out with some friends. Four guys on bikes were going down the middle of the road, which was a bit odd as there was quite a bit of traffic, shouting: "Tottenham's burning, Tottenham's burning." We'd had a few drinks and we were like: "What do you mean?" I just laughed and carried on the night. The next day, I watched it on the news. I'll never forget that guy saying: "Tottenham's burning, Tottenham's burning." |
| What I do reject wholeheartedly is any suggestion that these people are all criminals by nature, just waiting for an opportunity to band together. It was not organised criminality. I've not seen a hint of a case where there was any real organisation. Of course people text each other and said: "Mate, do you want to go out and do this?" That's not organisation, that's just people getting together. There was a lot of fuss about gangs. The evidence has not really been there for that at all. | What I do reject wholeheartedly is any suggestion that these people are all criminals by nature, just waiting for an opportunity to band together. It was not organised criminality. I've not seen a hint of a case where there was any real organisation. Of course people text each other and said: "Mate, do you want to go out and do this?" That's not organisation, that's just people getting together. There was a lot of fuss about gangs. The evidence has not really been there for that at all. |
| A youth court magistrate | A youth court magistrate |
| When the riots happened, I was abroad. The first case I dealt with, we were shown quite a lot of CCTV footage, so this was the first time I'd really seen what the riots were like. My immediate impression was that the rulebook we'd operated on until now had been torn up and thrown away. | When the riots happened, I was abroad. The first case I dealt with, we were shown quite a lot of CCTV footage, so this was the first time I'd really seen what the riots were like. My immediate impression was that the rulebook we'd operated on until now had been torn up and thrown away. |
| By this stage these were people with no criminal record, and in my experience if you come from the areas that these kids come from it's quite difficult not to have a criminal record. What I saw on the CCTV footage was, it looked to me, like a moment of euphoria – just a big street party. | By this stage these were people with no criminal record, and in my experience if you come from the areas that these kids come from it's quite difficult not to have a criminal record. What I saw on the CCTV footage was, it looked to me, like a moment of euphoria – just a big street party. |
| My first case, this particular boy, I didn't see him actually steal anything. [He was around] 15 but very, in some senses, innocent. He hadn't disguised himself, he wasn't wearing a hood. He'd brought his dog along. He was going up ahead of everybody else and deliberately throwing stuff at police. He was sentenced to [about 10] months in custody. I can fully understand the reaction that we had to make immediately after the riots and I can understand that to change it halfway along the line would be wrong, and yet there's something about it that worries me. | My first case, this particular boy, I didn't see him actually steal anything. [He was around] 15 but very, in some senses, innocent. He hadn't disguised himself, he wasn't wearing a hood. He'd brought his dog along. He was going up ahead of everybody else and deliberately throwing stuff at police. He was sentenced to [about 10] months in custody. I can fully understand the reaction that we had to make immediately after the riots and I can understand that to change it halfway along the line would be wrong, and yet there's something about it that worries me. |
| It's not just that one case, there have been subsequent cases. What concerns me is that these are, in the main, young people who are upright, good citizens. They are destined to be doing A-levels and going to university. These are all people who I'm afraid that their lives might be quite seriously, if not ruined, will be deeply affected by this now and it does worry me because it's just not what we've been used to doing. Most of the kids I've seen, I suspect, are deeply shocked at what they did and they sort of woke up and, like when you're drunk: "Did I really say that?" | It's not just that one case, there have been subsequent cases. What concerns me is that these are, in the main, young people who are upright, good citizens. They are destined to be doing A-levels and going to university. These are all people who I'm afraid that their lives might be quite seriously, if not ruined, will be deeply affected by this now and it does worry me because it's just not what we've been used to doing. Most of the kids I've seen, I suspect, are deeply shocked at what they did and they sort of woke up and, like when you're drunk: "Did I really say that?" |
| When I came back to England I said to my colleagues and the clerk, the legal adviser: "I haven't done any riot cases, you'll have to tell me what we're doing." And I was told: "We are sentencing to custody. We are following guidelines set by Igor Judge [the lord chief justice of England and Wales] and confirmed in the recent appeal." So that was it. | When I came back to England I said to my colleagues and the clerk, the legal adviser: "I haven't done any riot cases, you'll have to tell me what we're doing." And I was told: "We are sentencing to custody. We are following guidelines set by Igor Judge [the lord chief justice of England and Wales] and confirmed in the recent appeal." So that was it. |
| Well, I find it very difficult to do. Potentially very harmful. But I believe if you do this job you can't cherrypick what you're going to do and what you're not going to do. None of us expected to have to do this sort of work. Deep down, I feel it's not quite what we signed up for, I mean, the rulebook being torn up. | Well, I find it very difficult to do. Potentially very harmful. But I believe if you do this job you can't cherrypick what you're going to do and what you're not going to do. None of us expected to have to do this sort of work. Deep down, I feel it's not quite what we signed up for, I mean, the rulebook being torn up. |
| A 36-year-old self-employed police station adviser who attends police stations to help and represent anyone arrested who requires legal advice on behalf of solicitors' firms | A 36-year-old self-employed police station adviser who attends police stations to help and represent anyone arrested who requires legal advice on behalf of solicitors' firms |
| The atmosphere [in the police station] was very different to how my work would normally be carried out. It was completely hostile. You can build a rapport with officers, and often it's best to do that for the benefit of your client, and they [the police] just weren't interested. They made it very clear from the outset by their demeanour that this was very black and white, there's no shades of grey here. They wouldn't provide me with any information, they wouldn't answer any questions that I would put to them. Clients had been detained, locked up, for a longer than usual period of time. | The atmosphere [in the police station] was very different to how my work would normally be carried out. It was completely hostile. You can build a rapport with officers, and often it's best to do that for the benefit of your client, and they [the police] just weren't interested. They made it very clear from the outset by their demeanour that this was very black and white, there's no shades of grey here. They wouldn't provide me with any information, they wouldn't answer any questions that I would put to them. Clients had been detained, locked up, for a longer than usual period of time. |
| The client is there as a suspect as opposed to anyone that has formally done something or committed a crime. He's there to be investigated. But the opinions that people were guilty, the lines were drawn very early on. Any case connected with the riots, I took the view that it was a very different set of rules that were applied. | The client is there as a suspect as opposed to anyone that has formally done something or committed a crime. He's there to be investigated. But the opinions that people were guilty, the lines were drawn very early on. Any case connected with the riots, I took the view that it was a very different set of rules that were applied. |
| I probably dealt with in excess of 50 suspects in relation to riot cases. One [of them] was a young boy, he was either 12 or 14. Very small in stature. The allegation was that a bus had been damaged and set on fire. The young lad had never been in trouble with the police before. He'd been locked up for over 20 hours without an interview. He was clearly very scared. | I probably dealt with in excess of 50 suspects in relation to riot cases. One [of them] was a young boy, he was either 12 or 14. Very small in stature. The allegation was that a bus had been damaged and set on fire. The young lad had never been in trouble with the police before. He'd been locked up for over 20 hours without an interview. He was clearly very scared. |
| There was no supporting evidence at all. I tried to get information from the police about whether there was any CCTV footage, any witness statements, anything that showed any evidence to show that this young lad had been involved in anything whatsoever. Because his detention time was approaching that 24-hour period that they are legally entitled to hold someone without charge, a superintendent was then in attendance, because he was being asked by the investigators to extend the time they can keep him there to 36 hours. | There was no supporting evidence at all. I tried to get information from the police about whether there was any CCTV footage, any witness statements, anything that showed any evidence to show that this young lad had been involved in anything whatsoever. Because his detention time was approaching that 24-hour period that they are legally entitled to hold someone without charge, a superintendent was then in attendance, because he was being asked by the investigators to extend the time they can keep him there to 36 hours. |
| And we had a very, very strong argument as to why the officers shouldn't be allowed additional time. Unsurprisingly, the superintendent granted them the additional time to question the client. The superintendent, it's one of those occasions where he heard the words coming out of my mouth but didn't apply them to the case or the client. Didn't apply the law, most importantly, and just gave a rubber-stamp effort. | And we had a very, very strong argument as to why the officers shouldn't be allowed additional time. Unsurprisingly, the superintendent granted them the additional time to question the client. The superintendent, it's one of those occasions where he heard the words coming out of my mouth but didn't apply them to the case or the client. Didn't apply the law, most importantly, and just gave a rubber-stamp effort. |
| I just think the police failed so many people that they brought in. The police were out for revenge. I think the police were revengeful to anyone they could be, almost spiteful. They had lost control, they wanted to punish people for their own inability to keep control, that was the sense that I got. | I just think the police failed so many people that they brought in. The police were out for revenge. I think the police were revengeful to anyone they could be, almost spiteful. They had lost control, they wanted to punish people for their own inability to keep control, that was the sense that I got. |
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