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Leveson inquiry: Stephen Abell and Tim Toulmin - live Leveson inquiry: Stephen Abell and Tim Toulmin - live
(40 minutes later)
11.25am: Jay asks Toulmin about the PCC's annual review from 2006. Its section on "phone message tapping stated: 12.00pm: The London Evening Standard reports that the Metropolitan police commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, and three of his predecessors have been asked to give evidence to the Leveson inquiry.
Sir Paul Stephenson, Sir Ian Blair and Lord Stevens have been summoned to appear about meetings with newspaper owners and editors, according to the Standard.
11.55am: Only 32 complaints in 2007 reached the adjudication stage, Jay says.
Newspapers were encouraged to settle complaints where they were in breach of the code and that remedy would be satisfy the complainant, says Toulmin.
He adds that the PCC complaints handler would have told newspapers subject to complaint if there appeared to have been a breach of the code – before the formal adjudication.
11.51am: In 2007 the PCC received 4,340 complaints and made 1,229 rulings, according to a tweet from the Hacked Off campaign.
11.49am: The inquiry has resumed and Jay asks Toulmin about the PCC's complaints statistics.
11.46am: While we are waiting for the inquiry to return, Nick Davies' story on the background to the arrests at the Sun over the weekend is well worth reading:
On Saturday morning, the police arrested four journalists who have worked for Rupert Murdoch. For a while, it looked as though these were yet more arrests of people related to the News of the World but then it became clear that this was something much more significant.
This may be the moment when the scandal that closed the NoW finally started to pose a potential threat to at least one of Murdoch's three other UK newspaper titles: the Sun, the Times and the Sunday Times.
The four men arrested on Saturday are not linked to the NoW. They come from the Sun, from the top of the tree – the current head of news and his crime editor, the former managing editor and deputy editor.
Nothing is certain. No one has been convicted of anything. The four who were arrested on Saturday – like the 25 others before them – have not even been charged with any offence. But behind the scenes, something very significant has changed at News International.
Read the full article here.
11.41am: The inquiry is now taking a short break.
11.39am: Toulmin is asked about prominence of complaints negotiated by the PCC.
He says front-page apologies did happen, but he cannot recall how often.
"We recognised this was an issue, and tried within the bounds of our powers to … I thought there was always more that could have been done, more prominence could have been given," he says, claiming that the PCC under his directorship improved this situation.
"It improved considerably, but I think … at the start then the press probably was, in token generalities, probably eager to publish these things with less prominence."
11.31am: Toulmin is asked they the PCC came out so strongly against jail terms for journalists involved in obtaining information illegally via private investigators, as exposed by the Met's Opertaion Motorman.
"At the time, the board of the commission had met and discussed what it wanted to say and that's what it was," Toulmin says. "I don't feel equipped to get into those discussions at the moment given I'm just a private citizen."
11.29am: Toulmin says the PCC board did discuss asking News of the World editor Andy Coulson questions about phone hacking after he left the paper following the convictions of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire.
Leveson interjects to says that would have been "incredibly powerful".
Toulmin says this was not his decision but suggests it was a mistake. He says that the PCC decided its powers would have "held little traction" with Coulson.
11.25am: Jay asks Toulmin about the PCC's 2006 annual review. Its section on "phone message tapping" stated:
In August 2006 the News of the World journalist Clive Goodman was arrested on suspicion of having illegally tapped into telephone messages of people associated with the Royal Family. In November he pleaded guilty to a charge under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and in January 2007 was sentenced to prison for four months. Throughout this, the Commission had taken careto put on record its view of these events and how it intended to proceed once the law had taken its course. At all times it made clear that phone message tapping was totally unacceptable unless there was a clear public interest reason for carrying it out. It deplored what had happened. There was also a role for the Commission in taking things further.In August 2006 the News of the World journalist Clive Goodman was arrested on suspicion of having illegally tapped into telephone messages of people associated with the Royal Family. In November he pleaded guilty to a charge under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and in January 2007 was sentenced to prison for four months. Throughout this, the Commission had taken careto put on record its view of these events and how it intended to proceed once the law had taken its course. At all times it made clear that phone message tapping was totally unacceptable unless there was a clear public interest reason for carrying it out. It deplored what had happened. There was also a role for the Commission in taking things further.
This case illustrates the relationship between the Commission and the law, and how they can work well together to achieve different objectives. It also highlighted something that is often overlooked – that, although thereis rightly no restrictive legislation aimed directly at journalists, newspapers and magazines remain subject to the general law. There are some exceptions to some legislation for journalistic activity. In this case, the law was concerned with the prosecution of individuals for an identifiable offence under the RIPA, while the Commission was concerned about the application of the Code on the newspaper and wider professional standards.This case illustrates the relationship between the Commission and the law, and how they can work well together to achieve different objectives. It also highlighted something that is often overlooked – that, although thereis rightly no restrictive legislation aimed directly at journalists, newspapers and magazines remain subject to the general law. There are some exceptions to some legislation for journalistic activity. In this case, the law was concerned with the prosecution of individuals for an identifiable offence under the RIPA, while the Commission was concerned about the application of the Code on the newspaper and wider professional standards.
Before sentencing, the Commission announced that it would have a number of questions for the editor of the newspaper following the outcome of the trial. The editor of the newspaper resigned on the day that Mr Goodman was sentenced, meaning that such an inquiry was no longer appropriate. However, the PCC takes the matter seriously and announced that it would be questioning the new editor of the newspaper both about what went wrong previously and also about what he would be doing to ensurethat the situation was not repeated.Before sentencing, the Commission announced that it would have a number of questions for the editor of the newspaper following the outcome of the trial. The editor of the newspaper resigned on the day that Mr Goodman was sentenced, meaning that such an inquiry was no longer appropriate. However, the PCC takes the matter seriously and announced that it would be questioning the new editor of the newspaper both about what went wrong previously and also about what he would be doing to ensurethat the situation was not repeated.
It also said that it would be launching an industry-wide exercise to "find out the extent of internal controls aimed at preventing intrusive fishing expeditions; and what is being done to instil understanding both of the Code of Practice and the law in this area, and also of journalistic public interest exemptions".It also said that it would be launching an industry-wide exercise to "find out the extent of internal controls aimed at preventing intrusive fishing expeditions; and what is being done to instil understanding both of the Code of Practice and the law in this area, and also of journalistic public interest exemptions".
It intends to publish a report in due course.It intends to publish a report in due course.
11.21am: Toulmin defends the issue of serving editors sitting on the PCC.11.21am: Toulmin defends the issue of serving editors sitting on the PCC.
He says that serving editors "gave bite" to PCC rulings. "The element of peer pressure is quite powerful," he says, adding that editors would phone Toulmin and ask whether rival editors agreed with the complaint or ruling.He says that serving editors "gave bite" to PCC rulings. "The element of peer pressure is quite powerful," he says, adding that editors would phone Toulmin and ask whether rival editors agreed with the complaint or ruling.
11.16am: Toulmin says PCC members are independently-minded and would not have been influenced by others, including Hinton and Dacre.11.16am: Toulmin says PCC members are independently-minded and would not have been influenced by others, including Hinton and Dacre.
"If that subversive relationship had been going on at this level … I would have expected people to point it out," he says."If that subversive relationship had been going on at this level … I would have expected people to point it out," he says.
"These weren't people who were in any way cowed by the presence of a few editors," Toulmin adds, when asked about lay members on the PCC."These weren't people who were in any way cowed by the presence of a few editors," Toulmin adds, when asked about lay members on the PCC.
11.13am: Jay asks Toulmin about Paul Dacre, the Daily Mail editor, and Les Hinton, former chief executive of News International, who sat on the PCC board in the mid-2000s.11.13am: Jay asks Toulmin about Paul Dacre, the Daily Mail editor, and Les Hinton, former chief executive of News International, who sat on the PCC board in the mid-2000s.
Toulmin says there was "never any interference from those two men" and that the PCC has "operational independence".Toulmin says there was "never any interference from those two men" and that the PCC has "operational independence".
"Obviously those two people are significant people in the industry … but they never a single time would phone me up and suggest we should behave in a certain way," he says."Obviously those two people are significant people in the industry … but they never a single time would phone me up and suggest we should behave in a certain way," he says.
He denies that Dacre, Hinton and former PCC chairman Sir Christopher Meyer exerted any kind of "tripartite" influence over complaints.He denies that Dacre, Hinton and former PCC chairman Sir Christopher Meyer exerted any kind of "tripartite" influence over complaints.
11.07am: Without a complaint it was difficult for the PCC to "go into matters" that are subject to legal action, Toulmin tells the inquiry, referring to his letter to the Guardian editor in 2005.11.07am: Without a complaint it was difficult for the PCC to "go into matters" that are subject to legal action, Toulmin tells the inquiry, referring to his letter to the Guardian editor in 2005.
11.05am: Jay asks Toulmin if there was ever an instance where the PCC asked questions of newspapers or editors over phone hacking.11.05am: Jay asks Toulmin if there was ever an instance where the PCC asked questions of newspapers or editors over phone hacking.
Toulmin says that there were instances where the PCC would "ask questions" but were told that the subject was under a legal complaint so could not co-operate with the commission.Toulmin says that there were instances where the PCC would "ask questions" but were told that the subject was under a legal complaint so could not co-operate with the commission.
Jay says: "You never tested the boundaries of your powers, did you?"Jay says: "You never tested the boundaries of your powers, did you?"
Toulmin denies that, saying: "I think the PCC did test the limits of its powers."Toulmin denies that, saying: "I think the PCC did test the limits of its powers."
11.01am: Toulmin is asked about his letter to Alan Rusbridger, editor of the Guardian, in 2005 about phone hacking.11.01am: Toulmin is asked about his letter to Alan Rusbridger, editor of the Guardian, in 2005 about phone hacking.
In the letter, Toulmin said that the PCC wanted to avoid becoming a "talking shop" and wanted to avoud "fruitless fishing expeditions".In the letter, Toulmin said that the PCC wanted to avoid becoming a "talking shop" and wanted to avoud "fruitless fishing expeditions".
Toulmin says he cannot remember why he chose the phrase "fishing expedition" – the letter was sent seven years ago – but adds that the PCC had no legal authority to compel newspapers to hand over documents.Toulmin says he cannot remember why he chose the phrase "fishing expedition" – the letter was sent seven years ago – but adds that the PCC had no legal authority to compel newspapers to hand over documents.
"This is about something that doesn't involve a complaint and doesn't involve a legal problem," Toulmin says."This is about something that doesn't involve a complaint and doesn't involve a legal problem," Toulmin says.
Jay puts to Toulmin that the PCC could have asked newspapers to co-operate, albeit not compel them.Jay puts to Toulmin that the PCC could have asked newspapers to co-operate, albeit not compel them.
10.56am: Jay asks how often "letters of admonishment" were sent to newspaper editors.10.56am: Jay asks how often "letters of admonishment" were sent to newspaper editors.
Maybe half a dozen times a year, says Toulmin. They would be instances relating to issues in an editor's handling of a complaint.Maybe half a dozen times a year, says Toulmin. They would be instances relating to issues in an editor's handling of a complaint.
10.54am: Financial Times media correspondent Ben Fenton has just tweeted:10.54am: Financial Times media correspondent Ben Fenton has just tweeted:
[A theme emerging is that PCC articles, amended occasionally since written in 1991, have been overtaken by events] easy hit for #leveson[A theme emerging is that PCC articles, amended occasionally since written in 1991, have been overtaken by events] easy hit for #leveson
10.53am: PCC members were concerned to help the public with their complaints about the free press, Toulmin tells the inquiry.10.53am: PCC members were concerned to help the public with their complaints about the free press, Toulmin tells the inquiry.
He says that at the heart of the PCC is freedom of the press.He says that at the heart of the PCC is freedom of the press.
10.50am: Jay says that "every privacy complaint" under the PCC code could also include a parallel legal complaint – which would then mean the commission could not consider it.10.50am: Jay says that "every privacy complaint" under the PCC code could also include a parallel legal complaint – which would then mean the commission could not consider it.
He adds that the code is relatively unchanged since its inception in 1991, when privacy complaints did not play as big a part in common law.He adds that the code is relatively unchanged since its inception in 1991, when privacy complaints did not play as big a part in common law.
10.43am: Jay points out that clause 53.4 gives the commission "absolute discretion" to consider any complaint.10.43am: Jay points out that clause 53.4 gives the commission "absolute discretion" to consider any complaint.
10.41am: Jay says use of the word "consider" in the PCC's terms meant that it could include the ability to investigate practices including phone hacking.10.41am: Jay says use of the word "consider" in the PCC's terms meant that it could include the ability to investigate practices including phone hacking.
Toulmin says "that is not how it [the word 'consider'] has been taken".Toulmin says "that is not how it [the word 'consider'] has been taken".
"I think if that had have been put to me at the time I would have wanted to take some legal advice," he adds."I think if that had have been put to me at the time I would have wanted to take some legal advice," he adds.
Leveson interjects: "Well, what does it mean then?"Leveson interjects: "Well, what does it mean then?"
Toulmin says that the motivation was to be able to talk about issues around the PCC code that did not relate to the complaint.Toulmin says that the motivation was to be able to talk about issues around the PCC code that did not relate to the complaint.
"The phone-hacking exercise speaks for itself in a way," he tells Leveson. "All the questions that the PCC asked have been well established in the public domain. And it was with the genuine public interest in mind … that lessons would be learned more widely.""The phone-hacking exercise speaks for itself in a way," he tells Leveson. "All the questions that the PCC asked have been well established in the public domain. And it was with the genuine public interest in mind … that lessons would be learned more widely."
10.40am: Jay runs through the section of the PCC's articles of accociation relating to complaints, which read:10.40am: Jay runs through the section of the PCC's articles of accociation relating to complaints, which read:
53.1 The primary function of the commission shall be to consider, and adjudicate, conciliate and resolve or settle by reference to the press code of practice promulgated by Pressbof for the time being in force complaints from the public of unjust or unfair treatment by newspapers, periodicals or magazines and of unwarranted infringements of privacy through material published in newspapers, periodicals or magazines (in each case excluding advertising by third parties) or in connection with the obtaining of such material but shall not consider complaints of any other nature.53.1 The primary function of the commission shall be to consider, and adjudicate, conciliate and resolve or settle by reference to the press code of practice promulgated by Pressbof for the time being in force complaints from the public of unjust or unfair treatment by newspapers, periodicals or magazines and of unwarranted infringements of privacy through material published in newspapers, periodicals or magazines (in each case excluding advertising by third parties) or in connection with the obtaining of such material but shall not consider complaints of any other nature.
53.1A It shall also be the function of commission to consider and pronounce on issues relating to the code of practice which the commission, in its absolute discretion considers to be in the public interests.53.1A It shall also be the function of commission to consider and pronounce on issues relating to the code of practice which the commission, in its absolute discretion considers to be in the public interests.
53.2 All complaints shall be made in writing save that the commission may consider formal complaints made orally to the commission and notify the relevant publisher of any such complaint (but not adjudicate on the merits thereof) for the purpose of enabling the publisher to review the complaint and take any necessary action to prevent the anticipated unjust or unfair treatment or to limit or put an end to the unwarranted infringement of privacy complained of.53.2 All complaints shall be made in writing save that the commission may consider formal complaints made orally to the commission and notify the relevant publisher of any such complaint (but not adjudicate on the merits thereof) for the purpose of enabling the publisher to review the complaint and take any necessary action to prevent the anticipated unjust or unfair treatment or to limit or put an end to the unwarranted infringement of privacy complained of.
53.3 A complaint may be made by an individual or by a body of persons (whether incorporated or not) but, in addition to the requirements of article 53.1, shall only be entertained or its consideration proceeded with if it appears to the commission that:­53.3 A complaint may be made by an individual or by a body of persons (whether incorporated or not) but, in addition to the requirements of article 53.1, shall only be entertained or its consideration proceeded with if it appears to the commission that:­
(a) the complaint is made by the person affected or by a person authorised by him to make the complaint;(a) the complaint is made by the person affected or by a person authorised by him to make the complaint;
(b) the matter complained of is not the subject of proceedings in a court of law or tribunal in the United Kingdom; and(b) the matter complained of is not the subject of proceedings in a court of law or tribunal in the United Kingdom; and
(c) where the matter complained of is a matter in respect of which the person affected has a remedy by way of proceedings in a court of law in the United Kingdom, in the particular circumstances it is appropriate for the commission to consider a complaint about it.(c) where the matter complained of is a matter in respect of which the person affected has a remedy by way of proceedings in a court of law in the United Kingdom, in the particular circumstances it is appropriate for the commission to consider a complaint about it.
53.4 Notwithstanding the provisions of article 53.3, the commission shall have discretion to consider any complaint from whatever source that it considers appropriate to the effective discharge of its function.53.4 Notwithstanding the provisions of article 53.3, the commission shall have discretion to consider any complaint from whatever source that it considers appropriate to the effective discharge of its function.
10.33am: Jay is taking Toulmin through the PCC's articles of association.10.33am: Jay is taking Toulmin through the PCC's articles of association.
Its objects are objects to consider, adjudicate, conciliate, resolve and settle complaints.Its objects are objects to consider, adjudicate, conciliate, resolve and settle complaints.
Jay puts it to Toulmin that its powers are "fairly wide"; he agrees.Jay puts it to Toulmin that its powers are "fairly wide"; he agrees.
10.28am: The PCC can adapt very quickly, Toulmin says, adding that it benefits from not being underpinned by statute.10.28am: The PCC can adapt very quickly, Toulmin says, adding that it benefits from not being underpinned by statute.
Jay asks if Toulmin is suggesting that the PCC is more powerful because of the lack of statutory backstop.Jay asks if Toulmin is suggesting that the PCC is more powerful because of the lack of statutory backstop.
"I'd prefer what I've said: it's flexible. It can react quickly to complainants or to events," Toulmin replies."I'd prefer what I've said: it's flexible. It can react quickly to complainants or to events," Toulmin replies.
10.26am: Toulmin is asked about the PCC's response to phone-hacking allegations in 2005.10.26am: Toulmin is asked about the PCC's response to phone-hacking allegations in 2005.
He says that after the convictions of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire in 2005: "The PCC was faced with a decision … over whether to do nothing … or whether it was in a position to establish what was going to be done to make sure it didn't happen again. The whole industry took note."He says that after the convictions of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire in 2005: "The PCC was faced with a decision … over whether to do nothing … or whether it was in a position to establish what was going to be done to make sure it didn't happen again. The whole industry took note."
Toulmin says the PCC decided to produce a "forward-looking" report and establish principles of internal governance so there would be no repeat.Toulmin says the PCC decided to produce a "forward-looking" report and establish principles of internal governance so there would be no repeat.
Jay asks if it was an exercise in establishing why phone hacking had occurred at the News of the World.Jay asks if it was an exercise in establishing why phone hacking had occurred at the News of the World.
"We weren't going over the facts of the Goodman/Mulcaire case which had been dispensed by the courts," Toulmin replies. "We were looking at how it arose, and the culture.""We weren't going over the facts of the Goodman/Mulcaire case which had been dispensed by the courts," Toulmin replies. "We were looking at how it arose, and the culture."
10.21am: There are a number of laws that act to regulate the press, Toulmin says, mentioning "phone hacking and payments to police".10.21am: There are a number of laws that act to regulate the press, Toulmin says, mentioning "phone hacking and payments to police".
Toulmin describes the PCC as over and above the existing statute.Toulmin describes the PCC as over and above the existing statute.
He adds that the body has no investigative powers.He adds that the body has no investigative powers.
10.18am: Toulmin is asked to define the term "self-regulation".10.18am: Toulmin is asked to define the term "self-regulation".
He says the term is useful as it makes clear that "the industry is behind what's going on" and there is no statute involved.He says the term is useful as it makes clear that "the industry is behind what's going on" and there is no statute involved.
"Self-regulation is a reasonably well-established concept," he adds."Self-regulation is a reasonably well-established concept," he adds.
Toulmin says the PCC is not a regulator – it's a "complaints body … a sort of ombudsman".Toulmin says the PCC is not a regulator – it's a "complaints body … a sort of ombudsman".
10.13am: The inquiry is now under way. Tim Toulmin, former director of the PCC, is the first witness of the day.10.13am: The inquiry is now under way. Tim Toulmin, former director of the PCC, is the first witness of the day.
9.45am: The four former and current Sun journalists who were arrested by police on Saturday morning over alleged payments to police have been bailed.9.45am: The four former and current Sun journalists who were arrested by police on Saturday morning over alleged payments to police have been bailed.
This is a brief report from Press Association:This is a brief report from Press Association:
Four former and current Sun journalists and a serving Metropolitan Police officer arrested over alleged illegal police payments have been bailed by detectives.Four former and current Sun journalists and a serving Metropolitan Police officer arrested over alleged illegal police payments have been bailed by detectives.
Senior Sun employees Chris Pharo, 42, and Mike Sullivan along with former executives Fergus Shanahan, 57, and Graham Dudman, were named by sources as suspects facing corruption allegations.Senior Sun employees Chris Pharo, 42, and Mike Sullivan along with former executives Fergus Shanahan, 57, and Graham Dudman, were named by sources as suspects facing corruption allegations.
Scotland Yard confirmed five men detained yesterday by officers from Operation Elveden, launched following the phone hacking scandal, had been released pending further inquiries.Scotland Yard confirmed five men detained yesterday by officers from Operation Elveden, launched following the phone hacking scandal, had been released pending further inquiries.
9.34am: Good morning and welcome to the Leveson inquiry live blog.9.34am: Good morning and welcome to the Leveson inquiry live blog.
Today marks the start of a week of evidence from past and present executives from the Press Complaints Commission. Today, the inquiry will hear from the serving PCC director, Stephen Abell.Today marks the start of a week of evidence from past and present executives from the Press Complaints Commission. Today, the inquiry will hear from the serving PCC director, Stephen Abell.
Abell took over as director of the PCC in December 2009, a month after the commission's flawed report into phone hacking allegations made by the Guardian in July that year.Abell took over as director of the PCC in December 2009, a month after the commission's flawed report into phone hacking allegations made by the Guardian in July that year.
Tim Toulmin, director of the PCC at the time of its phone-hacking report, will also give evidence.Tim Toulmin, director of the PCC at the time of its phone-hacking report, will also give evidence.
Toulmin was director of the commission between January 2004 and December 2009, and now heads public relations firm Alder Media.Toulmin was director of the commission between January 2004 and December 2009, and now heads public relations firm Alder Media.
Follow the inquiry live from 10am.Follow the inquiry live from 10am.
Please note that comments have been switched off for legal reasons. Please note that comments have been switched off for legal reasons.