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Leaders clash on public spending Tories rebuff spending cut attack
(about 2 hours later)
Gordon Brown and David Cameron have clashed in the Commons over public spending amid claims both Labour and the Conservatives plan to make cuts. The Tories have rejected claims that they are planning "massive" cuts after the next election as the party leaders clashed over their spending plans.
Mr Brown said the Tories would cut spending by 10% after the next election with "basic services" badly affected. Gordon Brown said the Tories had revealed plans to reduce expenditure in many areas by 10% in the three years after 2011, hitting basic services.
Voters had a choice between Labour investment and Tory cuts, he claimed. David Cameron said Labour's would be forced into big cuts of their own due to their "appalling" economic record.
But Mr Cameron said Labour's own plans were for big cuts in spending and said the election would be about Labour's "appalling" economic "mismanagement". Independent experts believe cuts will happen whoever wins the next election.
But the BBC's Political Editor Nick Robinson said neither party were comfortable talking about where any spending cuts, which he said were inevitable, would fall.
'Massive cuts''Massive cuts'
At prime minister's questions, Mr Brown seized on comments made earlier by Tory health spokesman Andrew Lansley appearing to suggest a future Conservative government would cut spending in most areas by a total of 10% for the three years after 2011 - comments the Tories deny. The party leaders exchanged barbs over their spending plans in the Commons, with Mr Brown seizing on comments made earlier by Tory health spokesman Andrew Lansley about the party's spending plans.
He said this would represent "massive" cuts to "vital" services. In a BBC interview, he appeared to suggest that, in order to protect "priority" spending on the NHS and schools, a future Conservative government would cut expenditure in other areas by a total of 10% between 2011-5.
He was asked how the Tories would fund their pledge to maintain real-term increases in health and international aid spending - given the party's commitment to reduce what it says are Labour's unsustainable debt levels.
This is the day when the Conservatives have revealed their true manifesto for this country Gordon Brown The Full Story: PM's questions Nick Robinson's blog Brown sets out vote reform plans
"Unfortunately what this means is that there is going to be very powerful spending constraints elsewhere across government," he said.
He continued: "That does mean over three years after 2011 a 10% reduction in departmental expenditure limits for other departments. It is a very tough spending requirement indeed."
In response, at prime minister's questions, Gordon Brown said such a policy would result in "massive" cuts to "vital" services.
In contrast, he said under Labour spending would rise, in real terms, in each of the next five years.In contrast, he said under Labour spending would rise, in real terms, in each of the next five years.
"This is the day when the Conservatives have revealed their true manifesto for this country," he said."This is the day when the Conservatives have revealed their true manifesto for this country," he said.
This is the day when the Conservatives have revealed their true manifesto for this country Gordon Brown The Full Story: PM's questions Nick Robinson's blog
"The choice is between a government prepared to invest in the future and a Tory Party which is going to cut.""The choice is between a government prepared to invest in the future and a Tory Party which is going to cut."
But Mr Cameron said the Treasury's own projections, set out in this year's Budget, would result in a sharp fall in spending after 2011. 'Labour deception'
Mr Cameron said the Treasury's own projections, set out in this year's Budget, would result in a sharp fall in spending after 2011 - amounting to 7% for some departments.
He said the government's economic legacy was catastrophic, with the "biggest budget deficit in the country's history".He said the government's economic legacy was catastrophic, with the "biggest budget deficit in the country's history".
The election would not be about investment versus cuts, he said, but Labour's record over the past 12 years. The next election would not be about investment versus cuts, he said, but Labour's record over the past 12 years.
"It will be about the mismanagement of the public finances, the appalling deficits he has left and and his plan for cuts," Mr Cameron said."It will be about the mismanagement of the public finances, the appalling deficits he has left and and his plan for cuts," Mr Cameron said.
'Labour deception' Mr Lansley later sought to clarify his remarks, saying the two parties were facing the same pressures on spending.
In an interview with the Today programme, Mr Lansley said the Tories would increase spending on health, schools and international aid after 2011. "The issue is how do you deliver more for less in government," he said.
But he added that, as a result, "that does mean over three years after 2011 a 10% reduction in the departmental expenditure limits for other departments".
"It is a very tough spending requirement indeed," he continued.
The Tories maintain Mr Lansley was talking about the government's spending intentions not those of a future Conservative administration and pointing out that spending was projected to fall under Labour after 2011 - by as much as 7% in some areas.
In a statement, the party said Mr Lansley was pointing out that Labour was trying to "deceive" the public by suggesting it could avoid spending cuts after 2011.In a statement, the party said Mr Lansley was pointing out that Labour was trying to "deceive" the public by suggesting it could avoid spending cuts after 2011.
The debate over public spending is set to intensify in the run-up to the election with both main parties having to explain how they will reduce the spiralling level of public debt without both tax rises and spending cuts. Mr Brown was misleading the public when he said spending would continue to rise as he was ignoring the costs of paying interest on the spiralling public debt.
But the BBC's Political Editor Nick Robinson said neither party were comfortable talking about where the cuts, which would have to happen, would fall. Chancellor Alistair Darling announced plans in the Budget to borrow a further £500bn over the next four years.
'Building programme' Painful debate
During prime minister's questions, Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg urged Mr Brown to deliver help householders through the recession. The debate over public spending is set to intensify in the run-up to the election with both main parties having to explain how they will reduce the spiralling level of public debt without being forced into both tax rises and deep spending cuts.
Mr Clegg said the Treasury was guilty of "grabbing" money from council rents and sales and urged the prime minster to allow local authorities to build new homes. If this is a sign of things to come in the debate on public spending then we're in for a pretty miserable year Stephanie FlandersBBC economics editor class="" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2009/06/the_public_spending_debate.html">Read Stephanomics in full
"Since January, when you announced the biggest council house building programme in decades, only 20 new homes have been started," Mr Clegg told the prime minister. At this stage, neither party have spelled out their detailed spending plans beyond 2011.
Mr Brown said he did not accept the figures, arguing that there were one million more people in homes since Labour came to power. In its Budget analysis in April, the respected Institute of Financial Studies said the country faced "two parliaments of pain" as the next government had to reduce debt levels and bring the public finances under control after the damage caused by the banking crisis and recession.
It said there was £90bn "black hole" in the public finances and it would cost £2,480 in higher taxes or spending cuts per family to bring the budget back into balance.
Labour disputed this figure and said the IFS had not understood the full picture. BBC Economics Editor Stephanie Flanders said that "the government's own numbers imply a 10% real cut in spending on other departments between 2011 and 2013 if the NHS and DFID are protected".