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| Has the glass ceiling been shattered? | Has the glass ceiling been shattered? |
| (about 11 hours later) | |
| Marks and Spencer chairman Sir Stuart Rose has sparked debate after claiming women have "never had it so good" in the workplace, saying there is no reason why they should not make it to the top of any profession they choose. | Marks and Spencer chairman Sir Stuart Rose has sparked debate after claiming women have "never had it so good" in the workplace, saying there is no reason why they should not make it to the top of any profession they choose. |
| But has the glass ceiling really been shattered? Two former contestants on BBC One's The Apprentice gave the BBC News channel their views on work, motherhood and the sacrifices women make to get on. | But has the glass ceiling really been shattered? Two former contestants on BBC One's The Apprentice gave the BBC News channel their views on work, motherhood and the sacrifices women make to get on. |
| JO CAMERON | JO CAMERON |
| Jo Cameron runs a company which encourages women to be the best they can in the workplace. She is also expecting a baby. | Jo Cameron runs a company which encourages women to be the best they can in the workplace. She is also expecting a baby. |
| My way about it is going to be to integrate my family life because I think a lot of women are torn between home and family life. | My way about it is going to be to integrate my family life because I think a lot of women are torn between home and family life. |
| Jo Cameron plans to take her baby to work I just think organisations have to be a bit more creative about how we balance the two. | Jo Cameron plans to take her baby to work I just think organisations have to be a bit more creative about how we balance the two. |
| For example, my company, we employ mostly women but we all work from home offices, we use Skype, we are online to each other and we manage to balance our home lives and our work lives perfectly. | For example, my company, we employ mostly women but we all work from home offices, we use Skype, we are online to each other and we manage to balance our home lives and our work lives perfectly. |
| It's not hard these days to be able to look at those more flexible ways of working. | It's not hard these days to be able to look at those more flexible ways of working. |
| I've been doing a lot of research about my own personal situation and in developing countries, in India and Africa, women have to carry on working and the baby gets integrated and my plan is that baby comes with me and gets carried everywhere. | I've been doing a lot of research about my own personal situation and in developing countries, in India and Africa, women have to carry on working and the baby gets integrated and my plan is that baby comes with me and gets carried everywhere. |
| It's a concept called attachment parenting and as far as I can my baby's going to come with me and it's not really about affordability. | It's a concept called attachment parenting and as far as I can my baby's going to come with me and it's not really about affordability. |
| I think people that run businesses that can't manage around maternity leave probably shouldn't be managing businesses, quite frankly Jo Cameron Quite often we just discuss family issues as just a women issue. It's not just the sole right or responsibility for women to bring up children, it's about the partner as well and I think things like maternity law don't help the situation and we should have more of a forward-thinking law that allows fathers to take more time off as well. | I think people that run businesses that can't manage around maternity leave probably shouldn't be managing businesses, quite frankly Jo Cameron Quite often we just discuss family issues as just a women issue. It's not just the sole right or responsibility for women to bring up children, it's about the partner as well and I think things like maternity law don't help the situation and we should have more of a forward-thinking law that allows fathers to take more time off as well. |
| What we do, our company, is enable women to stay feminine and keep their values without turning into one of the boys, because I had 15 years in the motor industry, I tried to be like one of the boys and it just doesn't work. | What we do, our company, is enable women to stay feminine and keep their values without turning into one of the boys, because I had 15 years in the motor industry, I tried to be like one of the boys and it just doesn't work. |
| I don't think the men like it when we're like boys and neither do the women and I think we have plenty of things to bring to the boardroom and I think we have to stop making choices. | I don't think the men like it when we're like boys and neither do the women and I think we have plenty of things to bring to the boardroom and I think we have to stop making choices. |
| We need to say to our partners, 'You know, it's about taking a shared responsibility.' | We need to say to our partners, 'You know, it's about taking a shared responsibility.' |
| I think people that run businesses that can't manage around maternity leave probably shouldn't be managing businesses, quite frankly. Because you know it doesn't cost any more, usually. | I think people that run businesses that can't manage around maternity leave probably shouldn't be managing businesses, quite frankly. Because you know it doesn't cost any more, usually. |
| KATIE HOPKINS | KATIE HOPKINS |
| Business consultant and mother-of-three Katie Hopkins famously sacrificed her chance to compete to be Sir Alan Sugar's Apprentice on the BBC One show. She turned down a place in the final because it would not be fair to her family. | |
| There's obviously cases where institutional glass ceilings still exist but I think for the main part women do have the opportunity to reach board level if they want it. | There's obviously cases where institutional glass ceilings still exist but I think for the main part women do have the opportunity to reach board level if they want it. |
| Katie Hopkins turned down the chance to be in the final of The ApprenticeWhat we do see though is that women opt out of that choice. | |
| They don't choose the boardroom, they choose to go home and have families of their own and I think the other thing is that women don't assert themselves in the same way that men do. | They don't choose the boardroom, they choose to go home and have families of their own and I think the other thing is that women don't assert themselves in the same way that men do. |
| Women are not as aggressive, they are not as assertive and they do not play as hard as men do in order to get to those senior positions. | Women are not as aggressive, they are not as assertive and they do not play as hard as men do in order to get to those senior positions. |
| The juggling act for some is just too much. I think the key word here is really 'sacrifice'. | The juggling act for some is just too much. I think the key word here is really 'sacrifice'. |
| If you choose to make board level and beyond as a woman then really you do sacrifice something and that will be time with your children. | If you choose to make board level and beyond as a woman then really you do sacrifice something and that will be time with your children. |
| There is no way that I think that a part-time person could possibly achieve a senior position in an organisation if they're also trying to look after a family as well. | There is no way that I think that a part-time person could possibly achieve a senior position in an organisation if they're also trying to look after a family as well. |
| 'Family sacrified' | 'Family sacrified' |
| For me, being at a very senior level means having someone else that looks after my family for me. | For me, being at a very senior level means having someone else that looks after my family for me. |
| I sacrifice that time with them in order to commit myself fully in the same way that my male colleagues do and that's why I am able to compete at a senior level. | I sacrifice that time with them in order to commit myself fully in the same way that my male colleagues do and that's why I am able to compete at a senior level. |
| The opportunities open to part-time workers are fantastic now and phenomenal. | The opportunities open to part-time workers are fantastic now and phenomenal. |
| If you want to have a mixture of both at a certain level that's fantastic but I think we have to be clear that if you want to reach the very senior position, if you want the very highest pay cheque, then you really have to devote yourself to your work. | If you want to have a mixture of both at a certain level that's fantastic but I think we have to be clear that if you want to reach the very senior position, if you want the very highest pay cheque, then you really have to devote yourself to your work. |
| If I tootled in with my three children and said: 'Ooh, it's attachment parenting, boys, don't you know?' I'd be laughed out of the boardroom Katie Hopkins You have to be at your workplace the same hours as everybody else, you have to be able to be at your work in the evenings and commit to client meetings etc and you have to really devote yourself to your job. | If I tootled in with my three children and said: 'Ooh, it's attachment parenting, boys, don't you know?' I'd be laughed out of the boardroom Katie Hopkins You have to be at your workplace the same hours as everybody else, you have to be able to be at your work in the evenings and commit to client meetings etc and you have to really devote yourself to your job. |
| I think we have to recognise as women that we have choices and we have choices to make. | I think we have to recognise as women that we have choices and we have choices to make. |
| If you choose to stay at home or work part-time, fantastic, but you cannot also choose to be at the most senior level of an organisation. | If you choose to stay at home or work part-time, fantastic, but you cannot also choose to be at the most senior level of an organisation. |
| If I think about my clients in the Square Mile, in the boardrooms that I work in, if I tootled in with my three children and said: 'Ooh, it's attachment parenting, boys, don't you know?' I'd be laughed out of the boardroom. | If I think about my clients in the Square Mile, in the boardrooms that I work in, if I tootled in with my three children and said: 'Ooh, it's attachment parenting, boys, don't you know?' I'd be laughed out of the boardroom. |
| Now for some people, like Jo, that's fantastic, it works really well, she can work from home, brilliant, but I think for the majority of people that work in really tough industries at the senior level of organisations, you have to be able to make a choice and it's a tough choice. | Now for some people, like Jo, that's fantastic, it works really well, she can work from home, brilliant, but I think for the majority of people that work in really tough industries at the senior level of organisations, you have to be able to make a choice and it's a tough choice. |
| If you want to run with the boys, play with the boys and earn as much as the boys, then you have to work like that as well. | If you want to run with the boys, play with the boys and earn as much as the boys, then you have to work like that as well. |
| And for me, working like a man means that I have a nanny at home that looks after my children and I commit to working just as many hours as those guys work and I certainly haven't got my children secreted away under my desk somewhere. | And for me, working like a man means that I have a nanny at home that looks after my children and I commit to working just as many hours as those guys work and I certainly haven't got my children secreted away under my desk somewhere. |
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