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| Age and experience | Age and experience |
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| A POINT OF VIEW | A POINT OF VIEW |
| It's about time we recognised the difference between a 60-year-old and an 80-year-old and learn to appreciate both, says Katharine Whitehorn in her weekly column. | It's about time we recognised the difference between a 60-year-old and an 80-year-old and learn to appreciate both, says Katharine Whitehorn in her weekly column. |
| Rabbi Dame Julia Neuberger has issued a manifesto for more respect and better care for old people, Joan Bakewell has been appointed the Voice of the Elderly, a Czarina for the old, and I am agony aunt for Saga magazine for the over 50s. | Rabbi Dame Julia Neuberger has issued a manifesto for more respect and better care for old people, Joan Bakewell has been appointed the Voice of the Elderly, a Czarina for the old, and I am agony aunt for Saga magazine for the over 50s. |
| So I suppose you could call us the three witches, not so much like the hags in Macbeth, as Terry Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters: "When shall we three meet again in thunder lightning or in rain?" "Well I could do Tuesday." | |
| Like so many older people we may be getting on a bit but we're still getting on with it, and face a nation bewildered by the fact that in about 10 years time half the population will be over 50, and that even now there are more people over 60 than there are under 16. | Like so many older people we may be getting on a bit but we're still getting on with it, and face a nation bewildered by the fact that in about 10 years time half the population will be over 50, and that even now there are more people over 60 than there are under 16. |
| The three of us don't all cover the same things, of course. Joan says she feels as if she's suddenly become social worker to half the people with problems in the country. KATHARINE WHITEHORN The children of the 1960s hardly know what string is and live in an entirely disposable society - bags, marriages, T-shirts Hear Radio 4's A Point of View | The three of us don't all cover the same things, of course. Joan says she feels as if she's suddenly become social worker to half the people with problems in the country. KATHARINE WHITEHORN The children of the 1960s hardly know what string is and live in an entirely disposable society - bags, marriages, T-shirts Hear Radio 4's A Point of View |
| She used to be known as the thinking man's crumpet, so now I suppose she's the older thinking man's crumpet, since she's in her mid seventies. | She used to be known as the thinking man's crumpet, so now I suppose she's the older thinking man's crumpet, since she's in her mid seventies. |
| But it hasn't stopped her writing her first novel, All The Nice Girls, about which she did a talk in my neighbourhood last week. | But it hasn't stopped her writing her first novel, All The Nice Girls, about which she did a talk in my neighbourhood last week. |
| Her book is set in the 1940s and concerns a girls' school that adopts a naval ship. The background is based on her own schooldays, so the girls she writes about would now be in their seventies too. | Her book is set in the 1940s and concerns a girls' school that adopts a naval ship. The background is based on her own schooldays, so the girls she writes about would now be in their seventies too. |
| Which brings up the first of the difficulties we all have about the old - if they want this or refuse that, is it because of the age they are, or because of the years they've lived through? | Which brings up the first of the difficulties we all have about the old - if they want this or refuse that, is it because of the age they are, or because of the years they've lived through? |
| Those born before the war, have lived through austerity. They save bits of string, and hate to throw things away. They are less likely to have worked on short contracts, so more likely to have decent final salary pensions than people retiring now. | Those born before the war, have lived through austerity. They save bits of string, and hate to throw things away. They are less likely to have worked on short contracts, so more likely to have decent final salary pensions than people retiring now. |
| Computer struggle | Computer struggle |
| The children of the 1960s hardly know what string is and live in an entirely disposable society - bags, marriages, T-shirts. They may not have pensions or savings but are used to getting what they want, and are not about to retire quietly. | The children of the 1960s hardly know what string is and live in an entirely disposable society - bags, marriages, T-shirts. They may not have pensions or savings but are used to getting what they want, and are not about to retire quietly. |
| Today's over sixties like me have to struggle with computers and such, but there's no knowing whether tomorrow's old people - I'm sick of calling them elderly - will be perfectly in tune with all the technology, or equally baffled by what's suddenly come on stream in the year 2050. There are a few celebrity champions of older people | Today's over sixties like me have to struggle with computers and such, but there's no knowing whether tomorrow's old people - I'm sick of calling them elderly - will be perfectly in tune with all the technology, or equally baffled by what's suddenly come on stream in the year 2050. There are a few celebrity champions of older people |
| That's one difficulty about knowing how it will be with everyone living longer. A more serious one is that we are still talking about the old - the over fifties, older sixties anyway - as if they were all in the same bracket. They are nothing of the sort. | That's one difficulty about knowing how it will be with everyone living longer. A more serious one is that we are still talking about the old - the over fifties, older sixties anyway - as if they were all in the same bracket. They are nothing of the sort. |
| There's as much difference between someone of 60 and someone of 85 as there is between someone of 15 and 40 and we don't treat them the same. | There's as much difference between someone of 60 and someone of 85 as there is between someone of 15 and 40 and we don't treat them the same. |
| You read a headline like "Old age pensioner bashes burglar" and imagine a frail but frantic white-haired Valkyrie. But the feisty female who felled the felon may be someone who is as strong as an ox and works six days a week but still gets a bus pass and free prescriptions. | You read a headline like "Old age pensioner bashes burglar" and imagine a frail but frantic white-haired Valkyrie. But the feisty female who felled the felon may be someone who is as strong as an ox and works six days a week but still gets a bus pass and free prescriptions. |
| We have to get these two categories separate in our minds. The problems of the older lot, for example, are hugely connected to health. Hearing aids, cataract operations, HRT, hip replacements and such have helped a lot. | We have to get these two categories separate in our minds. The problems of the older lot, for example, are hugely connected to health. Hearing aids, cataract operations, HRT, hip replacements and such have helped a lot. |
| Carer respect | Carer respect |
| But every time you read of a triumphant reduction in deaths from heart attacks or cancer, you know that people do still die eventually. More of them will end up losing their wits before they lose their lives, and someone will have to cope with their dementia and frailty. | But every time you read of a triumphant reduction in deaths from heart attacks or cancer, you know that people do still die eventually. More of them will end up losing their wits before they lose their lives, and someone will have to cope with their dementia and frailty. |
| This is a main theme of Julia Neuberger's manifesto about training, paying and above all respecting the carers who cope with the old. There are millions of them and they have a mostly rotten time. Depression is apparently on the rise among the old and I'd bet a lot of it is just due to loneliness | This is a main theme of Julia Neuberger's manifesto about training, paying and above all respecting the carers who cope with the old. There are millions of them and they have a mostly rotten time. Depression is apparently on the rise among the old and I'd bet a lot of it is just due to loneliness |
| There's a perception that it's always much better for old people to be looked after by their families. But even the fact that I can imagine few things worse than having my bottom wiped by my daughter-in-law, it ignores the fearful personal cost that daughters and nieces - and other family members - sometimes have to pay to keep Mum or Auntie out of a home. | There's a perception that it's always much better for old people to be looked after by their families. But even the fact that I can imagine few things worse than having my bottom wiped by my daughter-in-law, it ignores the fearful personal cost that daughters and nieces - and other family members - sometimes have to pay to keep Mum or Auntie out of a home. |
| And I know from my agony aunt letters that masses of people have no kin of either sex anywhere near. | And I know from my agony aunt letters that masses of people have no kin of either sex anywhere near. |
| Homes and sheltered housing are terribly important. Good ones, like Abbeyfield which is a charity and therefore affordable, do a brilliant job. | Homes and sheltered housing are terribly important. Good ones, like Abbeyfield which is a charity and therefore affordable, do a brilliant job. |
| Dutch experiment | Dutch experiment |
| We may jeer a bit at the cushy estates for the aged that well-off Americans go in for - but one of my Christmas letters was from an old friend in the US who has just moved with her husband into one of these playpens for seniors, and she's ecstatic about it. | We may jeer a bit at the cushy estates for the aged that well-off Americans go in for - but one of my Christmas letters was from an old friend in the US who has just moved with her husband into one of these playpens for seniors, and she's ecstatic about it. |
| And there are experiments like co-housing, like in Holland where people are given at least the sort of support that you got in an old-time village, that could become more and more important. | And there are experiments like co-housing, like in Holland where people are given at least the sort of support that you got in an old-time village, that could become more and more important. |
| Depression is apparently on the rise among the old and I'd bet a lot of it is just due to loneliness.Young and middle aged often fail to realise the potential of their elders | Depression is apparently on the rise among the old and I'd bet a lot of it is just due to loneliness.Young and middle aged often fail to realise the potential of their elders |
| The younger group are still able to work, to contribute to the GNP, not just consume it. Their problems are often not knowing what to do, either because their job's collapsed and people over 50 don't get interviews, or because their children have left home, and they're badly in need of new interests. | The younger group are still able to work, to contribute to the GNP, not just consume it. Their problems are often not knowing what to do, either because their job's collapsed and people over 50 don't get interviews, or because their children have left home, and they're badly in need of new interests. |
| Various surveys have made it plain that there is more difference between the haves and have nots in this second half of life than any other age group, and it breaks squarely along the lines of education and money. | Various surveys have made it plain that there is more difference between the haves and have nots in this second half of life than any other age group, and it breaks squarely along the lines of education and money. |
| The solitary old folk the charities urge us to visit who are short of money, know hardly anyone, and are terrified of the gangs on the estate, are light years away from the sort of older people who become supporters of this or that restoration project, who join or run clubs, go on cruises, organise meetings, raise money for charity. | The solitary old folk the charities urge us to visit who are short of money, know hardly anyone, and are terrified of the gangs on the estate, are light years away from the sort of older people who become supporters of this or that restoration project, who join or run clubs, go on cruises, organise meetings, raise money for charity. |
| But between these two extremes, I suspect, are the ordinary run of people who just want to go on doing what they do, or perhaps switch. It's deeply depressing that the law has just decreed that the compulsory age of retirement, at least at 65, can stay. | But between these two extremes, I suspect, are the ordinary run of people who just want to go on doing what they do, or perhaps switch. It's deeply depressing that the law has just decreed that the compulsory age of retirement, at least at 65, can stay. |
| Older workers | Older workers |
| According to last Sunday's Observer, Bill Kennedy, a campaigner from Dorset, was compulsorily retired from the Ministry of Defence at the age of 56 - yet the pilot who made the heroic landing on the Hudson river was 57. Airlines vary in their retirement ages but plainly experience counts. | According to last Sunday's Observer, Bill Kennedy, a campaigner from Dorset, was compulsorily retired from the Ministry of Defence at the age of 56 - yet the pilot who made the heroic landing on the Hudson river was 57. Airlines vary in their retirement ages but plainly experience counts. |
| The DIY chain B&Q experimented in the 1990s with a store that only employed over 50s. It found it had higher profits and less absenteeism than their others, and the chain apparently now has 25% of staff over the age of 50. Once upon a time young people listened to their elders | The DIY chain B&Q experimented in the 1990s with a store that only employed over 50s. It found it had higher profits and less absenteeism than their others, and the chain apparently now has 25% of staff over the age of 50. Once upon a time young people listened to their elders |
| Voltaire advised people to live as long as possible "solely to annoy those who are paying your annuities" but the powers that be can't really have it both ways - deploring the fact that there will be too few of the young to finance the pensions of the old, but then decreeing that the aforementioned old aren't allowed to support themselves when they can. | Voltaire advised people to live as long as possible "solely to annoy those who are paying your annuities" but the powers that be can't really have it both ways - deploring the fact that there will be too few of the young to finance the pensions of the old, but then decreeing that the aforementioned old aren't allowed to support themselves when they can. |
| So far, alas, there's little sign of the aged becoming a serious force to be placated and reckoned with, comparable to the Association of Retired People in the US. Age Concern have merged with Help the Aged, but they're not about to bring down any government. But we can make our presence felt. | So far, alas, there's little sign of the aged becoming a serious force to be placated and reckoned with, comparable to the Association of Retired People in the US. Age Concern have merged with Help the Aged, but they're not about to bring down any government. But we can make our presence felt. |
| It wasn't just seniors the other day marching down Camden High Street in a demo, carrying banners and wearing vast "Keep the NHS public" T-shirts over our coats, but I was charmed by the police, who explained they were not there to prevent us rioting so much as to stop us being run over. | It wasn't just seniors the other day marching down Camden High Street in a demo, carrying banners and wearing vast "Keep the NHS public" T-shirts over our coats, but I was charmed by the police, who explained they were not there to prevent us rioting so much as to stop us being run over. |
| "A grey pound should change marketing attitudes," one hopeful marketing guru said recently. It's about time. | "A grey pound should change marketing attitudes," one hopeful marketing guru said recently. It's about time. |
| Designers of posters could give up printing in invisible primrose on pale backgrounds. There might be a bylaw, such as they have in California, that anything with more than three steps must have a handrail. | Designers of posters could give up printing in invisible primrose on pale backgrounds. There might be a bylaw, such as they have in California, that anything with more than three steps must have a handrail. |
| We might be able to have some simpler appliances instead of ever more complicated ones with impossible instructions. We might have technology designed in our interest - though there's no sign yet of Barry Cryer's suggestion for a high-speed stair-lift to get you upstairs before you've forgotten why you wanted to go. | We might be able to have some simpler appliances instead of ever more complicated ones with impossible instructions. We might have technology designed in our interest - though there's no sign yet of Barry Cryer's suggestion for a high-speed stair-lift to get you upstairs before you've forgotten why you wanted to go. |
| What I want is simply that those who design products, frame bylaws, plan environments, pass laws and design forms should realise that we are not an oddity or a problem or a niche market, but an essential and growing part of the mainstream. | What I want is simply that those who design products, frame bylaws, plan environments, pass laws and design forms should realise that we are not an oddity or a problem or a niche market, but an essential and growing part of the mainstream. |
| Below is a selection of your comments. | |
| I'm over sixty, am perfectly at home with computers and relish the opportunity to dabble with any new technology that comes my way. The same government that told me that they wouldn't be able to fund my pension and so I'd better make my own provisions is also responsible for the demise of my pension fund and the loss of most of our life savings. I'm resigned to having to work until its time to climb into my wooden box and stake my claim on a personal six foot by two foot piece of real estate. What our politicians appear to have failed to notice is that with 50% of the population over fifty at the next general election, appealing to the over fifties is going to be much more important than pandering to the whims of the young. A grey nation will be much less interested in the promotion of 24 hour drinking and help for "single" mums and more interested in peace and quiet on our streets, health provisions for older people and financial assistance for those who have seen their savings disappear into the pockets of pin-stripe spivs. Frank Bowron, Hatfield | I'm over sixty, am perfectly at home with computers and relish the opportunity to dabble with any new technology that comes my way. The same government that told me that they wouldn't be able to fund my pension and so I'd better make my own provisions is also responsible for the demise of my pension fund and the loss of most of our life savings. I'm resigned to having to work until its time to climb into my wooden box and stake my claim on a personal six foot by two foot piece of real estate. What our politicians appear to have failed to notice is that with 50% of the population over fifty at the next general election, appealing to the over fifties is going to be much more important than pandering to the whims of the young. A grey nation will be much less interested in the promotion of 24 hour drinking and help for "single" mums and more interested in peace and quiet on our streets, health provisions for older people and financial assistance for those who have seen their savings disappear into the pockets of pin-stripe spivs. Frank Bowron, Hatfield |
| I totally agree with everything in Katharine Whitehorn's article, but wonder whether we should start looking after ourselves more. What I mean by this is: Many retired ex-tradesmen do not want a regular job, but would not mind doing two or three days or half days per week for other pensioners. I am sure that many retired ladies would feel more comfortable with a workman of their own generation working in their house than younger workers that they had never seen before. Incidentally, I am in my late 70s and would thoroughly enjoy doing a day or two's work each week.Bill, Crawley | I totally agree with everything in Katharine Whitehorn's article, but wonder whether we should start looking after ourselves more. What I mean by this is: Many retired ex-tradesmen do not want a regular job, but would not mind doing two or three days or half days per week for other pensioners. I am sure that many retired ladies would feel more comfortable with a workman of their own generation working in their house than younger workers that they had never seen before. Incidentally, I am in my late 70s and would thoroughly enjoy doing a day or two's work each week.Bill, Crawley |
| I am 80 and find life awful. Nobody seems to care about us wrinklies. We can't go out after 5pm because of druggies and dealers and drunks. Children by day even push you off the pavement. We have less and less money because we saved and now have to use our savings. What do we do in the future when there are no homes you can trust or afford. Carers are expensive and not always trustworthy. If you have no relatives you get more and more depressed and worried. I don't understand pressing buttons when phoning nor can I hear a mechanical voice. How do you get your shopping? | I am 80 and find life awful. Nobody seems to care about us wrinklies. We can't go out after 5pm because of druggies and dealers and drunks. Children by day even push you off the pavement. We have less and less money because we saved and now have to use our savings. What do we do in the future when there are no homes you can trust or afford. Carers are expensive and not always trustworthy. If you have no relatives you get more and more depressed and worried. I don't understand pressing buttons when phoning nor can I hear a mechanical voice. How do you get your shopping? |
| The tiddly buses are a struggle to get on or off. I tried learning about computers at Age Concern but it has made me more stressful. Doctors don't see you unless you contact them and then you can't get through in the am and when you don't feel well it makes you worse! I can't get to church and have asked three vicars if I could see them as I am so frightened of dying and also would like Communion once a month. They haven't bothered. Barbara Duncan, Northwich England | The tiddly buses are a struggle to get on or off. I tried learning about computers at Age Concern but it has made me more stressful. Doctors don't see you unless you contact them and then you can't get through in the am and when you don't feel well it makes you worse! I can't get to church and have asked three vicars if I could see them as I am so frightened of dying and also would like Communion once a month. They haven't bothered. Barbara Duncan, Northwich England |
| I'm an ex-pat, retired in Oregon, USA, soon to be re-locating to England and as active today at 78 as I was 30 years ago. My "wealth" is in my physical and mental strength. I am so glad to see that there are many in the UK in the same "bubbling" shape. My first goal in the UK, after I've settled in, will be to offer my services and world-wide experience to where it can be of good use.Floyd Maddison-Roberts, McMinnville,Oregon, USA | I'm an ex-pat, retired in Oregon, USA, soon to be re-locating to England and as active today at 78 as I was 30 years ago. My "wealth" is in my physical and mental strength. I am so glad to see that there are many in the UK in the same "bubbling" shape. My first goal in the UK, after I've settled in, will be to offer my services and world-wide experience to where it can be of good use.Floyd Maddison-Roberts, McMinnville,Oregon, USA |
| I am a new pensioner and don't feel old. I so agree that there is a huge difference between a 60 year old and those 15 to 20 years older. I still work a few days each month as a supply teacher. I remarried in 2007 and have consequently enlarged my family. I am sure depression is linked to loneliness and not having a purpose or enough to do.Adele Evans, Bournemouth, England | I am a new pensioner and don't feel old. I so agree that there is a huge difference between a 60 year old and those 15 to 20 years older. I still work a few days each month as a supply teacher. I remarried in 2007 and have consequently enlarged my family. I am sure depression is linked to loneliness and not having a purpose or enough to do.Adele Evans, Bournemouth, England |
| Katharine finds it depressing that the "compulsory age of retirement is 65". Joan Bakewell talked about enlightened employers having the insight to allow people approaching 65 to move sideways and take up jobs that did not obstruct younger people from advancing on their career paths. I'll bet that both Joan and Katharine are self-employed, underlining the point that those with something unique to offer are always employable. | Katharine finds it depressing that the "compulsory age of retirement is 65". Joan Bakewell talked about enlightened employers having the insight to allow people approaching 65 to move sideways and take up jobs that did not obstruct younger people from advancing on their career paths. I'll bet that both Joan and Katharine are self-employed, underlining the point that those with something unique to offer are always employable. |
| There are as few employers offering retirement courses now as there are final salary pension schemes. And the average employer is not going to make life difficult for himself by creating a new vacancy (with recruitment costs and the disruption caused by training and induction) when he can keep on the original job holder. So the people who are required to retire at 65 are told to go for a reason: the employer is struggling to support the existing workforce without redundancies, or the incumbent is not as energetic or effective as they once were. We can't hand everything to the older person, when it is they who have the homes and savings already - younger and middle aged deserve a break.Sarah, High Wycombe |