This article is from the source 'bbc' and was first published or seen on . It will not be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/magazine/7799274.stm
The article has changed 2 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
Previous version
1
Next version
| Version 0 | Version 1 |
|---|---|
| Lest we forget, Jesus the man | |
| (2 days later) | |
| A POINT OF VIEW Whatever you believe in when it comes to the birth of Christ, even if you believe in nothing at all, no one can doubt the personal force of Jesus, says Clive James. | A POINT OF VIEW Whatever you believe in when it comes to the birth of Christ, even if you believe in nothing at all, no one can doubt the personal force of Jesus, says Clive James. |
| In the first scene of Shakespeare's Hamlet, on the battlements of Elsinore, just before dawn, Marcellus speaks. Marcellus is a walk-on part who gets only a few lines, but it was typical of Shakespeare to give even the pizza delivery man something fabulous to say. | In the first scene of Shakespeare's Hamlet, on the battlements of Elsinore, just before dawn, Marcellus speaks. Marcellus is a walk-on part who gets only a few lines, but it was typical of Shakespeare to give even the pizza delivery man something fabulous to say. |
| Marcellus says that in the season wherein our saviour's birth is celebrated, the bird of morning singeth all night long. And Horatio says: "So have I heard, and do in part believe it." | Marcellus says that in the season wherein our saviour's birth is celebrated, the bird of morning singeth all night long. And Horatio says: "So have I heard, and do in part believe it." |
| It's by no means certain whether Shakespeare believed that his own soul could be saved by Christ or any other saviour, but it is certain that there were all kinds of things about the Christian religion that Shakespeare believed at least in part.Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel | It's by no means certain whether Shakespeare believed that his own soul could be saved by Christ or any other saviour, but it is certain that there were all kinds of things about the Christian religion that Shakespeare believed at least in part.Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel |
| Well before the arrival on earth of our greatest writer, the process of ceasing to believe in a life beyond the grave had already begun. The question was already in existence of how much of the Christian religion would be left if it were deprived of the certainty that anyone who had faith would join the exalted Christ in the next life. And the answer was already in existence too. There would be a lot left. | Well before the arrival on earth of our greatest writer, the process of ceasing to believe in a life beyond the grave had already begun. The question was already in existence of how much of the Christian religion would be left if it were deprived of the certainty that anyone who had faith would join the exalted Christ in the next life. And the answer was already in existence too. There would be a lot left. |
| Shakespeare's plays and poetry were saturated with Christian ceremony, Christian symbolism, the seasons of the Christian year. The soul of Hamlet flew to heaven with an escort of singing angels. | Shakespeare's plays and poetry were saturated with Christian ceremony, Christian symbolism, the seasons of the Christian year. The soul of Hamlet flew to heaven with an escort of singing angels. |
| Living his life 100 years before Shakespeare, Leonardo da Vinci was quite possibly no believer in a life to come. All the evidence suggests, or at any rate little of it does not suggest, that he was a scientific empiricist whose atheism would have satisfied the requirements of Richard Dawkins. | Living his life 100 years before Shakespeare, Leonardo da Vinci was quite possibly no believer in a life to come. All the evidence suggests, or at any rate little of it does not suggest, that he was a scientific empiricist whose atheism would have satisfied the requirements of Richard Dawkins. |
| If Dawkins had been alive at the time and wearing the appropriate Renaissance clothes, in which he would have looked quite good, he might have paid a visit to Leonardo when the genius was at work in the dining hall of Santa Marie delle Grazie in Milan. Richard of Oxford could have asked Leonardo of Vinci if he really believed in all that supernatural stuff and Leonardo would probably have said no. | If Dawkins had been alive at the time and wearing the appropriate Renaissance clothes, in which he would have looked quite good, he might have paid a visit to Leonardo when the genius was at work in the dining hall of Santa Marie delle Grazie in Milan. Richard of Oxford could have asked Leonardo of Vinci if he really believed in all that supernatural stuff and Leonardo would probably have said no. |
| The conversation would have been brief, however, since Leonardo was hard at work painting the Last Supper, which is still there, although only the ghost of what it was, because he painted it not as a fresco, but directly on to the wall, thereby multiplying the chances that his new masterpiece would deteriorate with time. Almost certainly he knew that, but he was in the grip of inspiration, so he got on with the job anyway. | The conversation would have been brief, however, since Leonardo was hard at work painting the Last Supper, which is still there, although only the ghost of what it was, because he painted it not as a fresco, but directly on to the wall, thereby multiplying the chances that his new masterpiece would deteriorate with time. Almost certainly he knew that, but he was in the grip of inspiration, so he got on with the job anyway. |
| Human personality | Human personality |
| What kind of inspiration, if he didn't believe in how the story ended? But he did believe in the story's hero. The picture was already a ruin by the time Shakespeare was born, but even today, when you look at the many-times restored remains, you can see that the figure who occupies the vanishing point of all its perspectives is a concentration of everything that Leonardo knew about the force of human personality. And the same was true even when he painted Christ as a child. The infant Jesus always looks like an athlete in the making. | What kind of inspiration, if he didn't believe in how the story ended? But he did believe in the story's hero. The picture was already a ruin by the time Shakespeare was born, but even today, when you look at the many-times restored remains, you can see that the figure who occupies the vanishing point of all its perspectives is a concentration of everything that Leonardo knew about the force of human personality. And the same was true even when he painted Christ as a child. The infant Jesus always looks like an athlete in the making. |
| Michelangelo, who was 20 years younger than Leonardo and outlived him by 45 years, made Jesus heroic at any age and in all media. In Michelangelo's sculpture of the Madonna and child now in a church in Bruges, the boy Jesus is already a little tower of strength. In the famous drawings of the dead Christ rising from the tomb, the figure that floats upwards is no wraith, but the sublime expression of a warrior. | Michelangelo, who was 20 years younger than Leonardo and outlived him by 45 years, made Jesus heroic at any age and in all media. In Michelangelo's sculpture of the Madonna and child now in a church in Bruges, the boy Jesus is already a little tower of strength. In the famous drawings of the dead Christ rising from the tomb, the figure that floats upwards is no wraith, but the sublime expression of a warrior. |
| In the most famous Michelangelo Pieta, when the dead son lies across the knees of his mother, he is indeed the wreck of man, but it is a man who has been wrecked. Again, it's a matter for argument whether Michelangelo believed in the heaven he painted around the body of God at the centre of the ceiling of the Sistine chapel, but there can be no doubt that the personal force of Jesus was the focus of all his attention. The bird of morning will never sing all night long, but nor, if we are wise, will the memory of Jesus ever die. Hear Radio 4's A Point of View | In the most famous Michelangelo Pieta, when the dead son lies across the knees of his mother, he is indeed the wreck of man, but it is a man who has been wrecked. Again, it's a matter for argument whether Michelangelo believed in the heaven he painted around the body of God at the centre of the ceiling of the Sistine chapel, but there can be no doubt that the personal force of Jesus was the focus of all his attention. The bird of morning will never sing all night long, but nor, if we are wise, will the memory of Jesus ever die. Hear Radio 4's A Point of View |
| The supernatural visitor had been humanised. It was one of the things that humanism did. When the early painters of the Renaissance began painting religious figures as people instead of icons, a new kind of belief had begun. The centre of attention was switching from the next world to this one, according to the revolutionary conviction that the life that really matters happens between birth and death. | The supernatural visitor had been humanised. It was one of the things that humanism did. When the early painters of the Renaissance began painting religious figures as people instead of icons, a new kind of belief had begun. The centre of attention was switching from the next world to this one, according to the revolutionary conviction that the life that really matters happens between birth and death. |
| The churches, both Catholic and Protestant, did all they could to fight back, and they were especially fierce on art. The Catholic counter-reformation was partly an attempt to pull the artists back into the service of dogma, and in England the Protestant image breakers weren't just out to nail idolatry. They wanted to wipe out all suggestions that religion could be reduced to the level of mere humanity. | |
| The churches survived, they are still here, and there are many people who still believe in the old sense. But everything the churches had ever taught came in for half a millennium of questioning, until finally only one thing was left unquestioned. Paradoxically, the humanists, who had begun the process of undermining Christian belief, had reinforced the importance of the personality at its centre. | The churches survived, they are still here, and there are many people who still believe in the old sense. But everything the churches had ever taught came in for half a millennium of questioning, until finally only one thing was left unquestioned. Paradoxically, the humanists, who had begun the process of undermining Christian belief, had reinforced the importance of the personality at its centre. |
| I know that my redeemer liveth? Well I doubt if he can redeem me. I wish he could. But I do have faith that he lives on, as an ideal. All the Christian religions are lucky to have him, and those of us who have ceased to be Christians is the old way are lucky to have him too. | I know that my redeemer liveth? Well I doubt if he can redeem me. I wish he could. But I do have faith that he lives on, as an ideal. All the Christian religions are lucky to have him, and those of us who have ceased to be Christians is the old way are lucky to have him too. |
| Turning point | Turning point |
| In these weeks, in all the days of advent until Christmas day and from then on until 12th night - the season wherein his birth is celebrated - I have been giving him, and will yet give him, much thought. For me, he didn't need to be crucified in order to prove his capacity for sacrifice. He proved that when he faced the crowd who wanted to stone to death the woman taken in adultery. | In these weeks, in all the days of advent until Christmas day and from then on until 12th night - the season wherein his birth is celebrated - I have been giving him, and will yet give him, much thought. For me, he didn't need to be crucified in order to prove his capacity for sacrifice. He proved that when he faced the crowd who wanted to stone to death the woman taken in adultery. |
| It was a turning point in history, because nothing quite like that had ever been recorded before. Since the same crowd of fanatics might very well have stoned him for interrupting their dreadful ceremony, clearly he was brave beyond the imagination of most of us. | It was a turning point in history, because nothing quite like that had ever been recorded before. Since the same crowd of fanatics might very well have stoned him for interrupting their dreadful ceremony, clearly he was brave beyond the imagination of most of us. |
| But it was the generosity of his intervention that set a new mark. He met the same mark again when he promised a place near him in heaven to the whore who had washed his feet. Imagine the whispering abuse he earned for that. Imagine the shouted abuse.The Last Supper is considered a masterpiece | But it was the generosity of his intervention that set a new mark. He met the same mark again when he promised a place near him in heaven to the whore who had washed his feet. Imagine the whispering abuse he earned for that. Imagine the shouted abuse.The Last Supper is considered a masterpiece |
| I first heard about these things in Bible class when I was very young, and I can't think of how the same permanently necessary message about tolerance could have been transmitted in any other way. No matter how intolerant the churches got in all their years of power, not even when they were burning people by the thousand, they never managed to wipe out the impression of his understanding spirit. Those moments in the gospel would alone be enough to prove the importance of keeping alive all we can about his story. | |
| We can debate the difficult points of interpretation, hit each other over the head about the truth of what he said here and what he did there, but the essence of his personality still deserves to be cherished as a salvation, a redemption. It won't, I think, redeem our sins or save our souls for heaven, but it will give us a measure for how we should lead our lives on earth, even if we are bound to fail. | We can debate the difficult points of interpretation, hit each other over the head about the truth of what he said here and what he did there, but the essence of his personality still deserves to be cherished as a salvation, a redemption. It won't, I think, redeem our sins or save our souls for heaven, but it will give us a measure for how we should lead our lives on earth, even if we are bound to fail. |
| I notice that even my friend Christopher Hitchens, who has lately become famous all over again for declaring that religious belief is inimical to human reason and a threat to justice, would still rather like to maintain some of the traditions. Writing beautifully himself, he knows that much of the beauty of the English language has the Bible as its fountain, and that an education without a Bible education is no education. | I notice that even my friend Christopher Hitchens, who has lately become famous all over again for declaring that religious belief is inimical to human reason and a threat to justice, would still rather like to maintain some of the traditions. Writing beautifully himself, he knows that much of the beauty of the English language has the Bible as its fountain, and that an education without a Bible education is no education. |
| How the traditions can be maintained without the religious institutions being maintained as well, is a question he will no doubt tackle in the course of time, but for now it surely can be said that we should cherish any of the Christian remnants that do not conflict with the merciful and all-comprehending nature of the man whose life on earth was the beginning of it all. | How the traditions can be maintained without the religious institutions being maintained as well, is a question he will no doubt tackle in the course of time, but for now it surely can be said that we should cherish any of the Christian remnants that do not conflict with the merciful and all-comprehending nature of the man whose life on earth was the beginning of it all. |
| Paradise on earth | Paradise on earth |
| Some of the remnants are in ruins, but still too beautiful to lose, like Leonardo's Last Supper, still being restored even though there is almost nothing left of it to restore except restorations. | Some of the remnants are in ruins, but still too beautiful to lose, like Leonardo's Last Supper, still being restored even though there is almost nothing left of it to restore except restorations. |
| Others remnants are trying to be ruins, and it takes money to repair them. Ely Cathedral would still be a miracle even if it were to be reduced to the condition of Tintern Abbey, with grass growing in the nave and the sky for a roof. But we would lose the magnificent ceiling, and how can we not find the money to protect that, if we can find the money to lay more runways for more airports to take more people in search of a paradise on earth? | Others remnants are trying to be ruins, and it takes money to repair them. Ely Cathedral would still be a miracle even if it were to be reduced to the condition of Tintern Abbey, with grass growing in the nave and the sky for a roof. But we would lose the magnificent ceiling, and how can we not find the money to protect that, if we can find the money to lay more runways for more airports to take more people in search of a paradise on earth? |
| Other remnants are trivial, but vital all the same. During the days of advent, when our granddaughter came to visit, she would search for a chocolate in one of the pockets of Tommasina, our advent doll. Made of rag, Tommasina is lot taller than our granddaughter and has many pockets. For now, the hidden chocolate that somehow always got into one of the many pockets of Tommasina is a sufficient mystery. | Other remnants are trivial, but vital all the same. During the days of advent, when our granddaughter came to visit, she would search for a chocolate in one of the pockets of Tommasina, our advent doll. Made of rag, Tommasina is lot taller than our granddaughter and has many pockets. For now, the hidden chocolate that somehow always got into one of the many pockets of Tommasina is a sufficient mystery. |
| But the Christmas will come when our granddaughter will want to know more about just whose birthday Christmas is, and an important part of her upbringing will begin. Her parents are both believers in the classic sense, but it might be that their daughter will one day become an unbeliever, as I did. | But the Christmas will come when our granddaughter will want to know more about just whose birthday Christmas is, and an important part of her upbringing will begin. Her parents are both believers in the classic sense, but it might be that their daughter will one day become an unbeliever, as I did. |
| She might not believe that Jesus is still alive, in heaven. But there is one important thing that even I will be able to tell her, which is that Jesus, the first great man to be a champion of women, believed in her, and that alone would be sufficient cause to bless every night and day of the season wherein his birth is celebrated. The bird of morning will never sing all night long, but nor, if we are wise, will the memory of that man ever die. | She might not believe that Jesus is still alive, in heaven. But there is one important thing that even I will be able to tell her, which is that Jesus, the first great man to be a champion of women, believed in her, and that alone would be sufficient cause to bless every night and day of the season wherein his birth is celebrated. The bird of morning will never sing all night long, but nor, if we are wise, will the memory of that man ever die. |
| Below is a selection of your comments. | |
| Welcomed a positive modern statement about the personality of Jesus - no problems with the dismissal of all the medieval stuff. Great to think of JC as the first champion of women the forgiveness bit needs mentioning - another time perhaps thank you for these points of view - and I love the touch of humour that characterises Clive James contributions Beth Davies Beth Davies, Wilmslow Cheshire | |
| I loved this talk. It summed up exactly my own thoughts and beliefs in Jesus. I am very active in my local church but I often think deep down that I cannot believe in a God BUT I do believe in Jesus, as a man full of wisdom, bravery, kindness, consideration, who left the world a great set of standards by which to act. When I manage to stick to these standards and guidance I never go wrong. His teaching of love for all sees my through many a dark depressive night and sets me back on course again. Thank you Clive.Evelyn Magee, Orpington, Kent, UK | |
| Interesting article, slightly one sided though. what about all the people who have died due to the ideas and ideology surrounding Jesus? mixed blessings you may say Bobby, UK | |
| Very we'll said, and a lesson still valid today. It is easy to opine what is right and wrong, it is much more difficult to act. If Jesus was just a man, what an extraordinary man he must have been.Phil Maffey, Southam | |
| As a believer i found this very moving, and a helpful take on the issues of consideration and tolerance.Mary Cousins, UK | |
| Clive James gives us easy, entertaining, interesting and thought provoking listening and the best 10 minutes of the day. He may be an Aussie but lets make him one of us in a way that only we can. What about 'Sir Clive James'? That would be nice.David Parke, Bristol | |
| It was very refreshing to hear Clive James speak for all of us who believe in the example set for the human race by the writers of the Gospels, whatever the divinity or otherwise of the subject. And it was a lucid explanation for the children as to why we bother with Christmas - thank you, Clive.Hazel Brown, Brighouse, Yorkshire, UK | |
| I've really enjoyed all of Clive James' Point of View broadcasts, but, as a Christian, I found this one refreshing and moving and particularly well placed after the morning service.I'm looking forward to more of this quality of thinking and writing. Thank you. Lorraine Bewley, UK | |
| Another gem from a great journalist. Clive's honesty is always refreshing, and usually steeped in humour and irony. Here today for me as a Clergyman and Hospital chaplain I see such hope from the lines of Shakespeare and Clive James. For all those 'who in part believe' to whom I minister in sickness and health I am encouraged and helped as we turn another ragged corner of a year.Norman Setchell, Broadstairs, Kent |
Previous version
1
Next version