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Labour conference: Corbyn says UK could be better off outside EU if right deal available - live news Labour conference: Corbyn says UK could be better off outside EU if right deal available - live news
(31 minutes later)
And this is what Richard Leonard, the Scottish Labour leader, said on the BBC’s Sunday Politics Scotland about whether Labour should back a second independence referendum in Scotland. The Scottish Labour party has in the past firmly opposed the idea, but in August Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said a Labour government in London would not object to such a poll being held. Subsequently Leonard and Corbyn agreed a compromise line.
Explaining the position today, Leonard said:
The Labour position going into the general election whenever it comes will be that we oppose the creation of a separate Scottish state, that we oppose independence and therefore that we oppose the holding of a second independence referendum.
Where there has been some discussion is around if there was to be a renewed mandate which showed not only electoral but demonstrable public support for the holding of a second referendum - then there would need to be some consideration given to that.
We had an independence referendum just five years ago and that’s got to be a factor in considering whether the circumstances are right for a second independence referendum to be held.
All of the evidence shows that even people who voted yes in 2014, even some people who are supporting the SNP, do not think that the time is now for a second independence referendum.
The circumstances under which the 2014 referendum were held were that the SNP had gained an overall majority - unprecedented, completely unexpected - and there was an understanding that there had never been an independence referendum and the time might be right to test it.
What I’m saying is I don’t see the circumstances today and I don’t see them in the foreseeable future where we would be back in that kind of space again.
Richard Leonard, the Scottish Labour leader, like his Welsh counterpart Mark Drakeford (see 11.47am) has said Labour should back remain in any future referendum. Speaking on the BBC’s Sunday Politics Scotland, Leonard said:
The Scottish Labour party took a decision frankly in the wake of the European party election results that we needed to be much clearer, that we needed much greater clarity about the position that we were taking.
For that reason the Scottish executive of the Labour party backed my proposal that we call for an affirmative vote that any deal should go back to the public; secondly, that on that vote there should be a remain option; and thirdly, that we would campaign unambiguously for remain.
I would support the party taking that stance. I do think the time has come for clarity on this question and the Scottish Labour party, the Welsh Labour party take a similar view that we should be more overtly remain.
According to the BBC’s Norman Smith, tomorrow delegates are due to get a vote on two Brexit options – a composite motion saying the party should back remain in all circumstances, and a compromise motion tabled by the national executive committee setting out the leadership’s position.
So understand likely to be two Brexit options to be voted on tomorrow at Labour Conference. Remain v Corbyn/NEC special conf proposal
Here is the text of the NEC motion.
Here is Labour’s draft statement on Brexit, to be approved by NEC. It commits a Labour government to negotiate new Brexit deal within three months of taking office and then putting that to British people in referendum vote three months later. Importantly it says Labour will... pic.twitter.com/3h2HkYbRMb
The Welsh Labour party is firmly committed to the UK remaining in the EU in all circumstances, unlike the UK Labour party. That is also the position of the Labour-run Welsh government. This is what Mark Drakeford, the Welsh first minister, told the conference in his speech this morning.The Welsh Labour party is firmly committed to the UK remaining in the EU in all circumstances, unlike the UK Labour party. That is also the position of the Labour-run Welsh government. This is what Mark Drakeford, the Welsh first minister, told the conference in his speech this morning.
Faced with the deep and lasting damage this hard Tory Brexit will do to our country, we say it’s time to go back to the people in a second referendum with remain on the ballot paper.Faced with the deep and lasting damage this hard Tory Brexit will do to our country, we say it’s time to go back to the people in a second referendum with remain on the ballot paper.
And conference, I can tell you now that my Welsh Labour government will continue to stand up for Wales by campaigning wholeheartedly, vigorously and unapologetically, for Wales to remain in the EU.And conference, I can tell you now that my Welsh Labour government will continue to stand up for Wales by campaigning wholeheartedly, vigorously and unapologetically, for Wales to remain in the EU.
Brexit has torn at the very fabric of the things we cherish, including the United Kingdom itself.Brexit has torn at the very fabric of the things we cherish, including the United Kingdom itself.
Those pursuing Brexit have used – and misused – the union for their own narrow and ideological ends.Those pursuing Brexit have used – and misused – the union for their own narrow and ideological ends.
To drive us away from the partnerships we have developed with our European friends over so many years.To drive us away from the partnerships we have developed with our European friends over so many years.
We should be under no doubt that the voluntary union of our four sovereign nations here in the UK is under threat if we do not act.We should be under no doubt that the voluntary union of our four sovereign nations here in the UK is under threat if we do not act.
Mark Drakeford tells #Lab19 that the Welsh Labour Party will campaign wholeheartedly for Remain in a future referendum. This should be the policy of the party as a whole! pic.twitter.com/bGvz31MzusMark Drakeford tells #Lab19 that the Welsh Labour Party will campaign wholeheartedly for Remain in a future referendum. This should be the policy of the party as a whole! pic.twitter.com/bGvz31Mzus
The Labour conference is debating education at the moment. In her speech, Angela Rayner, the shadow education secretary, said a Labour government would be committed to the “integration” of private schools into the state sector. She told delegates:The Labour conference is debating education at the moment. In her speech, Angela Rayner, the shadow education secretary, said a Labour government would be committed to the “integration” of private schools into the state sector. She told delegates:
That is why we’ll upgrade social mobility to social justice, turning the Social Mobility Commission into the Social Justice Commission. And we will set that commission to work on making the whole education system fairer through the integration of private schools.That is why we’ll upgrade social mobility to social justice, turning the Social Mobility Commission into the Social Justice Commission. And we will set that commission to work on making the whole education system fairer through the integration of private schools.
John McDonnell and I will set out the further steps a Labour government would take. But I can say today that our very first budget will immediately close the tax loopholes used by elite private schools, and use that money to improve the lives of all children.John McDonnell and I will set out the further steps a Labour government would take. But I can say today that our very first budget will immediately close the tax loopholes used by elite private schools, and use that money to improve the lives of all children.
Quite what this pledge means in practice is not clear. As Rayner says, Labour wants to take away the tax advantages private schools enjoy, which would make private education more expensive, and perhaps as a result less desirable. But delegates want Labour to go further.Quite what this pledge means in practice is not clear. As Rayner says, Labour wants to take away the tax advantages private schools enjoy, which would make private education more expensive, and perhaps as a result less desirable. But delegates want Labour to go further.
The conference is currently debating two composite motions on schools. One of them – Schools composite 1, moved by Battersea CLP – says “the ongoing existence of private schools is incompatible with Labour’s pledge to promote social justice, not social mobility in education”. It goes on:The conference is currently debating two composite motions on schools. One of them – Schools composite 1, moved by Battersea CLP – says “the ongoing existence of private schools is incompatible with Labour’s pledge to promote social justice, not social mobility in education”. It goes on:
Conference resolves:Conference resolves:
To include in the next Labour party general election manifesto a commitment to integrate all private schools into the state sector. That would include, but is not limited to:To include in the next Labour party general election manifesto a commitment to integrate all private schools into the state sector. That would include, but is not limited to:
Withdrawal of charitable status and all other public subsidies and tax privileges including business rate exemption.Withdrawal of charitable status and all other public subsidies and tax privileges including business rate exemption.
Ensure universities admit the same proportion of private school pupils as in the wider population (currently 7%).Ensure universities admit the same proportion of private school pupils as in the wider population (currently 7%).
Endowments, investments and properties held by private schools to be redistributed democratically and fairly across the country’s educational institutions.Endowments, investments and properties held by private schools to be redistributed democratically and fairly across the country’s educational institutions.
Here are the main points from Jeremy Corbyn’s interview with Andrew Marr.Here are the main points from Jeremy Corbyn’s interview with Andrew Marr.
Corbyn said the UK could be better off outside the EU than within if the right Brexit deal were available. (See 10am.) While recognising that most party members wanted the UK to remain in the EU, Corbyn said it was important to recognise why 17 million people voted to leave. He said:Corbyn said the UK could be better off outside the EU than within if the right Brexit deal were available. (See 10am.) While recognising that most party members wanted the UK to remain in the EU, Corbyn said it was important to recognise why 17 million people voted to leave. He said:
Please remember why people voted leave, why people voted remain, but also remember there is more that unites all of those people – over austerity, over investment, over education, over housing, over health, over a green industrial revolution – than there is that divides them.Please remember why people voted leave, why people voted remain, but also remember there is more that unites all of those people – over austerity, over investment, over education, over housing, over health, over a green industrial revolution – than there is that divides them.
He said that if the conference voted for Labour to campaign for remain in all circumstances, he would respect that decision. At the moment his policy is for Labour to offer voters a choice between remain and a credible leave option in a referendum after the election, and for the party to decide its stance at the time. But, when asked if he would agree to campaign for remain regardless if the conference voted for that this week (Brexit is being debated tomorrow), Corbyn replied:He said that if the conference voted for Labour to campaign for remain in all circumstances, he would respect that decision. At the moment his policy is for Labour to offer voters a choice between remain and a credible leave option in a referendum after the election, and for the party to decide its stance at the time. But, when asked if he would agree to campaign for remain regardless if the conference voted for that this week (Brexit is being debated tomorrow), Corbyn replied:
I will go along with whatever decision the party comes to.I will go along with whatever decision the party comes to.
He did not rule out giving Labour MPs a free vote if Boris Johnson brings a deal back to the Commons. However, he implied this was unlikely. Asked if a free vote was possible, he replied:He did not rule out giving Labour MPs a free vote if Boris Johnson brings a deal back to the Commons. However, he implied this was unlikely. Asked if a free vote was possible, he replied:
I would hope we could vote together as a party on this. And that is what I’ve tried to do all the way through.I would hope we could vote together as a party on this. And that is what I’ve tried to do all the way through.
He said Labour and other opposition parties would use Commons votes to block a further suspension of parliament if the supreme court ruled that the current suspension (prorogation) was unlawful. The court is due to announce its ruling early next week, and Corbyn said there should be an immediate recall of parliament in those circumstances. And he said:He said Labour and other opposition parties would use Commons votes to block a further suspension of parliament if the supreme court ruled that the current suspension (prorogation) was unlawful. The court is due to announce its ruling early next week, and Corbyn said there should be an immediate recall of parliament in those circumstances. And he said:
If [the supreme court] decide that parliament should be recalled … then we would seek to take immediate action in parliament to prevent him closing down parliament all the way through to 31 October. So I would work with the other opposition parties, as we have up to now.If [the supreme court] decide that parliament should be recalled … then we would seek to take immediate action in parliament to prevent him closing down parliament all the way through to 31 October. So I would work with the other opposition parties, as we have up to now.
Corbyn did not say how opposition parties might stop a second prorogation. It is normally just up to the prime minister to decide when parliament is prorogued.Corbyn did not say how opposition parties might stop a second prorogation. It is normally just up to the prime minister to decide when parliament is prorogued.
Corbyn said he did not know that his ally Jon Lansman was going to call a vote at Labour’s national executive committee meeting on Friday calling for the post of deputy leader to be abolished. He said he was aware of general talk about changing the role, but not that this motion was going to be proposed. He said:Corbyn said he did not know that his ally Jon Lansman was going to call a vote at Labour’s national executive committee meeting on Friday calling for the post of deputy leader to be abolished. He said he was aware of general talk about changing the role, but not that this motion was going to be proposed. He said:
I was not aware that the particular motion was going to be moved at that time, but I knew there were people discussing options.I was not aware that the particular motion was going to be moved at that time, but I knew there were people discussing options.
Corbyn also claimed the move was not directed against Watson personally. When it was put to him that he should have known what was being planned, he replied:Corbyn also claimed the move was not directed against Watson personally. When it was put to him that he should have known what was being planned, he replied:
I’m not all-seeing and all-knowing – I’d love to be.I’m not all-seeing and all-knowing – I’d love to be.
Corbyn dismisses concerns about the operation of his office raised by his policy adviser Andrew Fisher in a private memo about his decision to resign. When asked why the memo referred to colleagues having a “lack of human decency” and a issuing a “blizzard of lies”, Corbyn confirmed that he had read the document. He went on:Corbyn dismisses concerns about the operation of his office raised by his policy adviser Andrew Fisher in a private memo about his decision to resign. When asked why the memo referred to colleagues having a “lack of human decency” and a issuing a “blizzard of lies”, Corbyn confirmed that he had read the document. He went on:
I think [Fisher] said that because he was extremely distressed at that point about whatever was going on in discussions within the office at that moment. I would have thought similar memos fly around the BBC pretty much every day.I think [Fisher] said that because he was extremely distressed at that point about whatever was going on in discussions within the office at that moment. I would have thought similar memos fly around the BBC pretty much every day.
Corbyn also stressed that Fisher would stay in his job until the end of the year and said he had had a “very convivial” coffee with Fisher and other members of his team only this morning. He went on:Corbyn also stressed that Fisher would stay in his job until the end of the year and said he had had a “very convivial” coffee with Fisher and other members of his team only this morning. He went on:
He is a great colleague, a great friend … I’ve worked with Andrew for 15 years, when I was a backbencher and many other times. He is a great writer, he’s a great thinker and he’s done a huge amount of work in the party. We get along absolutely very well and he’s promised that whatever happens in the future he will be working with me on policy issues.He is a great colleague, a great friend … I’ve worked with Andrew for 15 years, when I was a backbencher and many other times. He is a great writer, he’s a great thinker and he’s done a huge amount of work in the party. We get along absolutely very well and he’s promised that whatever happens in the future he will be working with me on policy issues.
Corbyn rejected suggestions that he might be about to step down. He said he would lead the party into the general election and serve a full term as PM if he won. (There were claims that the move to oust Tom Watson was prompted by fears that Corbyn might be close to resigning, which would raise the prospect of Watson taking over as interim leader.)Corbyn rejected suggestions that he might be about to step down. He said he would lead the party into the general election and serve a full term as PM if he won. (There were claims that the move to oust Tom Watson was prompted by fears that Corbyn might be close to resigning, which would raise the prospect of Watson taking over as interim leader.)
Corbyn defended Labour’s decision, announced today, to commit to abolishing Ofsted. Asked why he was doing this, Corbyn replied:Corbyn defended Labour’s decision, announced today, to commit to abolishing Ofsted. Asked why he was doing this, Corbyn replied:
Because it is a very assertive form of investigation into a school. They turn up every few years, or sometimes more frequently than that, and do an exercise on that school and then make a decision about it. The level of stress on the students and the teachers is absolutely enormous.Because it is a very assertive form of investigation into a school. They turn up every few years, or sometimes more frequently than that, and do an exercise on that school and then make a decision about it. The level of stress on the students and the teachers is absolutely enormous.
What we want instead is a more frequent form of supportive investigation of schools and examination of them through HMI, Her Majesty’s Inspectors of schools, but also through local authorities. It’s part of reinvigorating local education authorities to administer all schools within that community area.What we want instead is a more frequent form of supportive investigation of schools and examination of them through HMI, Her Majesty’s Inspectors of schools, but also through local authorities. It’s part of reinvigorating local education authorities to administer all schools within that community area.
He said that if he became PM he would try to fly less than his predecessors and use trains more. “I fly as little as I can now,” he said. “I take trains wherever I can.” Promising to do the same in government, he said “an example has to be set”.He said that if he became PM he would try to fly less than his predecessors and use trains more. “I fly as little as I can now,” he said. “I take trains wherever I can.” Promising to do the same in government, he said “an example has to be set”.
Here is the full exchange with Andrew Marr where Jeremy Corbyn said the UK could be better off outside the EU than inside in some circumstances.Here is the full exchange with Andrew Marr where Jeremy Corbyn said the UK could be better off outside the EU than inside in some circumstances.
AM: One of your first jobs [as PM] is go to Brussels and negotiate a new Brexit deal … In that context, is it your view that Britain is better off inside the European Union or better off, long-term, outside the European Union? Which?AM: One of your first jobs [as PM] is go to Brussels and negotiate a new Brexit deal … In that context, is it your view that Britain is better off inside the European Union or better off, long-term, outside the European Union? Which?
JC: [It] depends on the agreement you have with the European Union outside.JC: [It] depends on the agreement you have with the European Union outside.
AM: So we could be better off outside, therefore?AM: So we could be better off outside, therefore?
JC: Listen, what I’ve tried to do all along is recognise the result of the referendum and respect it. That’s what we said in our 2017 manifests, which is why we voted before that to invoke article 50 … We have consistently put forward what I believe to be a credible option, which is what we call the five pillars which is the customs union, the trade relationship, protection of consumer, environmental and workers’ rights, and of course, the Good Friday agreement and the peace process …JC: Listen, what I’ve tried to do all along is recognise the result of the referendum and respect it. That’s what we said in our 2017 manifests, which is why we voted before that to invoke article 50 … We have consistently put forward what I believe to be a credible option, which is what we call the five pillars which is the customs union, the trade relationship, protection of consumer, environmental and workers’ rights, and of course, the Good Friday agreement and the peace process …
I recognise the majority of Labour party supporters and members support remain and supported remain, but a significant minority voted the other way.I recognise the majority of Labour party supporters and members support remain and supported remain, but a significant minority voted the other way.
Q: Why do you want to abolish Ofsted?Q: Why do you want to abolish Ofsted?
Corbyn says inspections are causing too much stresss.Corbyn says inspections are causing too much stresss.
And that’s it. The interview is over.And that’s it. The interview is over.
I will post a summary and reaction as soon as possible.I will post a summary and reaction as soon as possible.
Q: If you become PM, will you fly less than normal PMs?Q: If you become PM, will you fly less than normal PMs?
Corbyn says he flies as little as he can. He will take trains as often as he can.Corbyn says he flies as little as he can. He will take trains as often as he can.
He says he wants to set an example.He says he wants to set an example.
Corbyn says he would try to travel by train where possible as PM.Corbyn says he would try to travel by train where possible as PM.
Corbyn says, if the supreme court decides prorogation was unlawful, he and other opposition parties would try to ensure Johnson cannot prorogue again.Corbyn says, if the supreme court decides prorogation was unlawful, he and other opposition parties would try to ensure Johnson cannot prorogue again.
He says the Commons should be recalled if that is what the supreme court decides. He hopes that happens.He says the Commons should be recalled if that is what the supreme court decides. He hopes that happens.
Corbyn says he and other opposition parties may try to stop Johnson suspending parliament again.Corbyn says he and other opposition parties may try to stop Johnson suspending parliament again.
Q: You could avoid no deal by voting for a deal Boris Johnson brings back. Do you agree?Q: You could avoid no deal by voting for a deal Boris Johnson brings back. Do you agree?
Corbyn says Johnson has not brought a deal back. He has been PM since July, but we have not seen one.Corbyn says Johnson has not brought a deal back. He has been PM since July, but we have not seen one.
Q: Should Labour back a deal?Q: Should Labour back a deal?
It depends what it is, says Corbyn.It depends what it is, says Corbyn.
But he says all his instincts are telling him to that Johnson does not want a deal.But he says all his instincts are telling him to that Johnson does not want a deal.
Q: Would you allow Labour MPs a free vote on any Johnson deal?Q: Would you allow Labour MPs a free vote on any Johnson deal?
Corbyn says he would hope that the party would be able to have a united line on this (ie, that he would not allow one).Corbyn says he would hope that the party would be able to have a united line on this (ie, that he would not allow one).
Corbyn does not rule out giving Labour MPs a free vote on any Boris Johnson Brexit deal.Corbyn does not rule out giving Labour MPs a free vote on any Boris Johnson Brexit deal.
Q: If the conference votes for Labour to be unequivocally a remain party, will you accept it?Q: If the conference votes for Labour to be unequivocally a remain party, will you accept it?
Corbyn says he will accept what the party decides.Corbyn says he will accept what the party decides.
But he wants people to remember the concerns of the 17 million people who voted to leave, he says.But he wants people to remember the concerns of the 17 million people who voted to leave, he says.
Q: Are you ignoring the views of those who want a “clean-break Brexit”?Q: Are you ignoring the views of those who want a “clean-break Brexit”?
Corbyn says the views of these people do matter to him.Corbyn says the views of these people do matter to him.
But people were not told the truth about what Brexit would involve.But people were not told the truth about what Brexit would involve.
He says the government has tried to hide the truth about what Brexit would involve.He says the government has tried to hide the truth about what Brexit would involve.
Q: Do you think the UK would be better off staying in the EU or outside?Q: Do you think the UK would be better off staying in the EU or outside?
Corbyn says it would depend on what the deal to leave would be like.Corbyn says it would depend on what the deal to leave would be like.
Corbyn suggests UK could be better off outside the EU than within it.Corbyn suggests UK could be better off outside the EU than within it.
He says it is important to recognise that the country voted to leave.He says it is important to recognise that the country voted to leave.
Q: So if Michel Barnier gives you the Labour version of Brexit, would you campaign enthusiastically for it?Q: So if Michel Barnier gives you the Labour version of Brexit, would you campaign enthusiastically for it?
Corbyn says he wants to be able to put a sensible leave deal to the public.Corbyn says he wants to be able to put a sensible leave deal to the public.
Q: So if you get a good Brexit deal, do you then campaign for it?Q: So if you get a good Brexit deal, do you then campaign for it?
Corbyn says:Corbyn says:
Let’s see what we get, and we will put that final deal to the British people.Let’s see what we get, and we will put that final deal to the British people.
Q: Why can’t you answer?Q: Why can’t you answer?
Because we don’t know if we have got it yet, says Corbyn.Because we don’t know if we have got it yet, says Corbyn.
Q: So at the moment you are staying neutral?Q: So at the moment you are staying neutral?
Corbyn says Labour would have a special conference to decide.Corbyn says Labour would have a special conference to decide.
Q: Will you definitely be Labour leader during the election and afterwards?Q: Will you definitely be Labour leader during the election and afterwards?
Corbyn says he will be taking the party into the election as leader.Corbyn says he will be taking the party into the election as leader.
Q: And would you serve a full term?Q: And would you serve a full term?
Yes, says Corbyn.Yes, says Corbyn.
Corbyn says he would serve a full term as prime minister.Corbyn says he would serve a full term as prime minister.