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| E. Jean Carroll, in Her Own Words | E. Jean Carroll, in Her Own Words |
| (about 5 hours later) | |
| You’re reading a special edition of In Her Words, where women rule the headlines. Sign up here to get it delivered to your inbox. Let us know what you think at dearmaya@nytimes.com. | You’re reading a special edition of In Her Words, where women rule the headlines. Sign up here to get it delivered to your inbox. Let us know what you think at dearmaya@nytimes.com. |
| “I didn’t even know it was rape. I just knew it was horrible.” | “I didn’t even know it was rape. I just knew it was horrible.” |
| — E. Jean Carroll, who has accused President Trump of sexually assaulting her in the 1990s | — E. Jean Carroll, who has accused President Trump of sexually assaulting her in the 1990s |
| The writer E. Jean Carroll came forward last week with explosive accusations that Donald Trump sexually assaulted her in the 1990s. | The writer E. Jean Carroll came forward last week with explosive accusations that Donald Trump sexually assaulted her in the 1990s. |
| This week, my colleagues Jessica Bennett, Megan Twohey and Alexandra Alter published a front-page story in which the writer’s friends and confidantes talk publicly for the first time about the allegations against the president, which he has repeatedly denied. I encourage you to read it. | |
| [Read the article here] | [Read the article here] |
| They also spoke extensively with Carroll, 75, who will publish a book on Tuesday called “What Do We Need Men For?” Here are exclusive snippets from their conversation, which have been edited and condensed for clarity. | They also spoke extensively with Carroll, 75, who will publish a book on Tuesday called “What Do We Need Men For?” Here are exclusive snippets from their conversation, which have been edited and condensed for clarity. |
| ______ | ______ |
| Your book is structured around a long list of “hideous men” in your life. Did you always plan to include Donald Trump in the book? | Your book is structured around a long list of “hideous men” in your life. Did you always plan to include Donald Trump in the book? |
| No. You know, I get all of these fabulous letters from women, and have gotten them for 26 years. And inevitably there comes a point in almost every single letter where the cause of the woman’s problem is revealed — whether it’s about finances, career, children, religion. The cause comes down to one thing: men. | No. You know, I get all of these fabulous letters from women, and have gotten them for 26 years. And inevitably there comes a point in almost every single letter where the cause of the woman’s problem is revealed — whether it’s about finances, career, children, religion. The cause comes down to one thing: men. |
| I just had a wild idea. What do we need men for? Let’s get rid of men! But then I thought, “Well, maybe we do need them.” So let me check. Let me get in the car with Lewis [her dog] and go to towns named after women and ask women: What do we need men for? And then at the end I would know whether we should really get rid of them. | I just had a wild idea. What do we need men for? Let’s get rid of men! But then I thought, “Well, maybe we do need them.” So let me check. Let me get in the car with Lewis [her dog] and go to towns named after women and ask women: What do we need men for? And then at the end I would know whether we should really get rid of them. |
| What did you find?The day I started on the trip, I think I was in Pennsylvania, the #MeToo bombshell dropped. The day. I could hardly move because I just kept pulling over to see the story. And of course, memories swept over every woman who was reading that. I couldn’t help but think of men in my own life. And then slowly I figured out that I have a large amount of hideous men. By the time I was in Indiana, I had written down in my notebook, “This is a memoir.” | What did you find?The day I started on the trip, I think I was in Pennsylvania, the #MeToo bombshell dropped. The day. I could hardly move because I just kept pulling over to see the story. And of course, memories swept over every woman who was reading that. I couldn’t help but think of men in my own life. And then slowly I figured out that I have a large amount of hideous men. By the time I was in Indiana, I had written down in my notebook, “This is a memoir.” |
| Do you think everybody has a list of hideous men? | Do you think everybody has a list of hideous men? |
| I’m wondering if somebody my age who worked in the ’60s and the ’70s and the ’80s could not. You could not walk down the street in New York in the ’60s without getting hit on. And going down into the subway — the pinch pinch, the grab grab. I remember I was standing down there and a man just came up and knelt down, put both arms around my thighs and said, “I adore you.” So just imagine where his face was. | I’m wondering if somebody my age who worked in the ’60s and the ’70s and the ’80s could not. You could not walk down the street in New York in the ’60s without getting hit on. And going down into the subway — the pinch pinch, the grab grab. I remember I was standing down there and a man just came up and knelt down, put both arms around my thighs and said, “I adore you.” So just imagine where his face was. |
| [Listen to E. Jean Carroll and her confidantes discuss the allegations on “The Daily”] | |
| In the book, you write that you and Trump recognized each other at Bergdorf’s, talked playfully about what gift he might buy for a woman and ended up in the lingerie department, challenging each other to try on a lilac bodysuit. It was there that you claim he pushed you against the wall, pulled down your tights and put his penis inside you. But why would you go into the dressing room with him in the first place? | In the book, you write that you and Trump recognized each other at Bergdorf’s, talked playfully about what gift he might buy for a woman and ended up in the lingerie department, challenging each other to try on a lilac bodysuit. It was there that you claim he pushed you against the wall, pulled down your tights and put his penis inside you. But why would you go into the dressing room with him in the first place? |
| I thought it was a joke. Don’t you think it’s funny if he said, “Go try this on?” “No,” I said, “You try it on. It’s your color. It matches your eyes.” I just see a whole scene with him putting this on over his pants. And he’s the nicest guy. He’s Donald Trump! He’s nice. He’s charming. What an idiot I was. In a way, it was my fault. You don’t combine lingerie and going in a closed room. | I thought it was a joke. Don’t you think it’s funny if he said, “Go try this on?” “No,” I said, “You try it on. It’s your color. It matches your eyes.” I just see a whole scene with him putting this on over his pants. And he’s the nicest guy. He’s Donald Trump! He’s nice. He’s charming. What an idiot I was. In a way, it was my fault. You don’t combine lingerie and going in a closed room. |
| But you don’t like to describe it as “rape.” | But you don’t like to describe it as “rape.” |
| I like the word “fight.” That’s how I like to say it. To me, rape implies victim. It implies I’m laying on the ground and he’s having his way with me. That’s how I picture it. This was a fight where I’m stamping on his feet, and I think I’m banging him on the head with my purse. | I like the word “fight.” That’s how I like to say it. To me, rape implies victim. It implies I’m laying on the ground and he’s having his way with me. That’s how I picture it. This was a fight where I’m stamping on his feet, and I think I’m banging him on the head with my purse. |
| He is big, you know. | He is big, you know. |
| But it was a “fight” against your will? | But it was a “fight” against your will? |
| Yeah. | Yeah. |
| You wrote in the New York Magazine excerpt that you never had sex again. | You wrote in the New York Magazine excerpt that you never had sex again. |
| I dated people, I met people, I went out, I had what I called “flings.” But we never had intercourse. I just was not lucky enough to meet someone. The desire for desire was over. It was just pretty much dead. And I didn’t meet that person who could reawaken it. | I dated people, I met people, I went out, I had what I called “flings.” But we never had intercourse. I just was not lucky enough to meet someone. The desire for desire was over. It was just pretty much dead. And I didn’t meet that person who could reawaken it. |
| Many have asked why didn’t you come forward earlier. Why not in 2016, when more than 10 other women came forward accusing Trump of sexual improprieties? Or when the “Access Hollywood” tape, in which he bragged about assaulting women, was revealed? | Many have asked why didn’t you come forward earlier. Why not in 2016, when more than 10 other women came forward accusing Trump of sexual improprieties? Or when the “Access Hollywood” tape, in which he bragged about assaulting women, was revealed? |
| If I had done it then, they would’ve hit me with: “This is just political.You’re just trying to bring him down.” No matter what I did, if I come forward now, I catch flak. If I came forward then, I catch flak. I catch flak because I didn’t come forward. I catch flak because why did I come forward in the first place. No matter when a woman makes that decision, it’s very personal and when I decided to do it, it was like a split second. | If I had done it then, they would’ve hit me with: “This is just political.You’re just trying to bring him down.” No matter what I did, if I come forward now, I catch flak. If I came forward then, I catch flak. I catch flak because I didn’t come forward. I catch flak because why did I come forward in the first place. No matter when a woman makes that decision, it’s very personal and when I decided to do it, it was like a split second. |
| So you think the criticism would have happened regardless. | So you think the criticism would have happened regardless. |
| At any moment. And I couldn’t have done it at ’95 because I didn’t have the guts. I didn’t even know it was [she pauses] rape. I knew it was horrible. I didn’t understand what really happened. When you lead the life of adventure, of a journalist, you know you get into situations and you get out and then you move on. | At any moment. And I couldn’t have done it at ’95 because I didn’t have the guts. I didn’t even know it was [she pauses] rape. I knew it was horrible. I didn’t understand what really happened. When you lead the life of adventure, of a journalist, you know you get into situations and you get out and then you move on. |
| You saved the dress you were wearing that day. Did you ever think about getting it tested for DNA? | You saved the dress you were wearing that day. Did you ever think about getting it tested for DNA? |
| That is a serious question because no, I did not. All I did was I just didn’t want to put it back on because if you had a really pretty outfit and you had a horrible time wearing it, do you put it back on? Do you wait two, maybe three years? No, you don’t put it back on. But it was such a good dress. It was such a good, beautifully designed coat dress, I just couldn’t throw it away. I just let it sit there. Behind the raincoat. | That is a serious question because no, I did not. All I did was I just didn’t want to put it back on because if you had a really pretty outfit and you had a horrible time wearing it, do you put it back on? Do you wait two, maybe three years? No, you don’t put it back on. But it was such a good dress. It was such a good, beautifully designed coat dress, I just couldn’t throw it away. I just let it sit there. Behind the raincoat. |
| Sign up here to get future installments of In Her Words delivered to your inbox. | Sign up here to get future installments of In Her Words delivered to your inbox. |
| ______ | ______ |
| Here are five articles from The Times you might have missed. | Here are five articles from The Times you might have missed. |
| “Desperate courage.” Pride parades weren’t always feathers, floats and celebrities. They were an act of “militant visibility.” [Read the story] | “Desperate courage.” Pride parades weren’t always feathers, floats and celebrities. They were an act of “militant visibility.” [Read the story] |
| “I want people to respect who I am, what I am — being gay, being a woman, being a professional athlete.” Megan Rapinoe doubles down in her dust-up with President Trump. [Read the story] | “I want people to respect who I am, what I am — being gay, being a woman, being a professional athlete.” Megan Rapinoe doubles down in her dust-up with President Trump. [Read the story] |
| “Honestly, girls are better than boys, they are more serious.” At an Afghan mountain school, there are no computers, lights or heat. Yet 90 percent of graduates get into college. Most of them are girls. [Read the story] | “Honestly, girls are better than boys, they are more serious.” At an Afghan mountain school, there are no computers, lights or heat. Yet 90 percent of graduates get into college. Most of them are girls. [Read the story] |
| “Child care is particularly expensive in this country.” What’s the solution to the child care crisis? According to many of the Democratic candidates, it’s universal relief. [Read the story] | “Child care is particularly expensive in this country.” What’s the solution to the child care crisis? According to many of the Democratic candidates, it’s universal relief. [Read the story] |
| “Chasing the L.G.B.T.Q. millennial American dream.” The arrival of marriage equality allows queer millennials to consider a future they once couldn’t have envisioned. But for many, the future remains unclear. [Read the story] | “Chasing the L.G.B.T.Q. millennial American dream.” The arrival of marriage equality allows queer millennials to consider a future they once couldn’t have envisioned. But for many, the future remains unclear. [Read the story] |
| ______ | ______ |
| This week, for the first time in history, multiple women were on stage for a presidential debate. | This week, for the first time in history, multiple women were on stage for a presidential debate. |
| Of the 20 candidates who debated over two nights, six were women, and Senators Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris were among the candidates with the most speaking time. But not surprisingly, men did most of the interrupting. | Of the 20 candidates who debated over two nights, six were women, and Senators Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris were among the candidates with the most speaking time. But not surprisingly, men did most of the interrupting. |
| The first debate was more policy talk and platitudes than fireworks and personal insults, as the Times political reporter Lisa Lerer put it, but in the second, Harris confronted former vice president Joe Biden over his record and issues of race. | The first debate was more policy talk and platitudes than fireworks and personal insults, as the Times political reporter Lisa Lerer put it, but in the second, Harris confronted former vice president Joe Biden over his record and issues of race. |
| Catch up now on the highlights from night one and night two. | Catch up now on the highlights from night one and night two. |
| Read past In Her Words here. | Read past In Her Words here. |
| Sign up here to get In Her Words delivered to your inbox. | Sign up here to get In Her Words delivered to your inbox. |