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| Version 15 | Version 16 |
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| Peers throw out 42-day detention | Peers throw out 42-day detention |
| (about 18 hours later) | |
| The government's plans to extend terror detention limits to 42 days have been heavily defeated in the House of Lords. | The government's plans to extend terror detention limits to 42 days have been heavily defeated in the House of Lords. |
| Peers voted to keep the current 28-day limit on pre-charge detentions by 309 votes to 118 - a majority of 191. | Peers voted to keep the current 28-day limit on pre-charge detentions by 309 votes to 118 - a majority of 191. |
| Later the home secretary said it would be dropped from the counter-terrorism bill but would be in a new bill to be made law "should the worst happen". | Later the home secretary said it would be dropped from the counter-terrorism bill but would be in a new bill to be made law "should the worst happen". |
| Among those voting against the government were former lord chancellors Lord Falconer and Lord Irvine. | Among those voting against the government were former lord chancellors Lord Falconer and Lord Irvine. |
| Last week ministers said the plan would return to MPs if defeated but there had been speculation it might be dropped. | Last week ministers said the plan would return to MPs if defeated but there had been speculation it might be dropped. |
| BBC political correspondent Iain Watson said Monday's result was a much bigger defeat than had been expected. | BBC political correspondent Iain Watson said Monday's result was a much bigger defeat than had been expected. |
| Shadow security minister Baroness Neville-Jones, who had described the 42-day plan as "unworkable" and "constitutionally worrying", told the BBC later there had been "very heavy abstentions on the government benches". | Shadow security minister Baroness Neville-Jones, who had described the 42-day plan as "unworkable" and "constitutionally worrying", told the BBC later there had been "very heavy abstentions on the government benches". |
| I see no thin end of the wedge argument here Lord CarlileTerrorism law reviewer Q&A: Terror plansMinisters drop 42-day detentionParliament hit by airport protest class="" href="http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=5483&edition=1">Send us your comments | |
| "This has been a very big majority against," she said. | "This has been a very big majority against," she said. |
| "It must make it very difficult for the government to proceed with this piece of legislation and send it back to the Commons as if nothing had happened." | "It must make it very difficult for the government to proceed with this piece of legislation and send it back to the Commons as if nothing had happened." |
| Crossbencher Lord Dear, a former chief constable who tabled the amendment to keep the pre-charge detention limit at 28 days, called ministers' plan "fatally flawed". | Crossbencher Lord Dear, a former chief constable who tabled the amendment to keep the pre-charge detention limit at 28 days, called ministers' plan "fatally flawed". |
| Balancing safety | Balancing safety |
| Opening the debate, he said: "This attempt to appear tough on terrorism, I believe, is a shabby charade which is unworthy of a democratic process and we should reject it." | Opening the debate, he said: "This attempt to appear tough on terrorism, I believe, is a shabby charade which is unworthy of a democratic process and we should reject it." |
| He said there was "no proven case" for changing the limit, that the legislation was "fatally flawed, ill thought-through and unnecessary" and would "further erode fundamental and legal rights that have been the pride of this country for centuries". | He said there was "no proven case" for changing the limit, that the legislation was "fatally flawed, ill thought-through and unnecessary" and would "further erode fundamental and legal rights that have been the pride of this country for centuries". |
| Supporting Lord Dear's amendment were Baroness Neville-Jones, Lib Dem frontbencher Lord Thomas and Labour QC Baroness Mallalieu. | Supporting Lord Dear's amendment were Baroness Neville-Jones, Lib Dem frontbencher Lord Thomas and Labour QC Baroness Mallalieu. |
| But Security Minister Lord West had warned peers: "If it is rejected and the government is right... it could mean dangerous terrorists are released to commit atrocities." | But Security Minister Lord West had warned peers: "If it is rejected and the government is right... it could mean dangerous terrorists are released to commit atrocities." |
| He said: "As a government, we often face the issue that we are all wrestling with in this House, balancing the safety of the majority of our population against the freedom of the individual and I am certain where our duty lies." | He said: "As a government, we often face the issue that we are all wrestling with in this House, balancing the safety of the majority of our population against the freedom of the individual and I am certain where our duty lies." |
| This is not the end of civil liberties as we know it. And it could have a consequence of saving many lives at home and abroad Lord Carlile | This is not the end of civil liberties as we know it. And it could have a consequence of saving many lives at home and abroad Lord Carlile |
| And Lib Dem peer Lord Carlile, the official reviewer of terror laws, said he did not want to have to make changes to the law in the aftermath of a major terrorist attack. | And Lib Dem peer Lord Carlile, the official reviewer of terror laws, said he did not want to have to make changes to the law in the aftermath of a major terrorist attack. |
| "I see no thin end of the wedge argument here. What I see is finality in the law of detention with appropriate detention," he said. | "I see no thin end of the wedge argument here. What I see is finality in the law of detention with appropriate detention," he said. |
| He said he believed the extension would affect adversely a "maximum maybe of five or six people in the next four or five years". | He said he believed the extension would affect adversely a "maximum maybe of five or six people in the next four or five years". |
| "This is not the end of civil liberties as we know it. And it could have a consequence of saving many lives at home and abroad." | "This is not the end of civil liberties as we know it. And it could have a consequence of saving many lives at home and abroad." |
| Several peers did not vote along party lines. Former lord chancellor Lord Falconer said he would vote against the government "with a heavy heart", while the former Conservative chairman Lord Tebbit said he would vote with the government. | Several peers did not vote along party lines. Former lord chancellor Lord Falconer said he would vote against the government "with a heavy heart", while the former Conservative chairman Lord Tebbit said he would vote with the government. |
| Lord Tebbit warned his own party they may "rue this day" if they won the next general election and found they needed the powers. | Lord Tebbit warned his own party they may "rue this day" if they won the next general election and found they needed the powers. |
| Parliament protest | Parliament protest |
| Among those voting to support the amendment to keep the limit at 28 days were former education secretary Baroness Morris, former MI5 head Baroness Manningham-Buller, former Lord Chief Justice Lord Woolf and former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Condon. | Among those voting to support the amendment to keep the limit at 28 days were former education secretary Baroness Morris, former MI5 head Baroness Manningham-Buller, former Lord Chief Justice Lord Woolf and former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Condon. |
| The government failed in 2006 to extend pre-charge terror detention to a maximum of 90 days. Instead, the current 28-day limit was agreed as a compromise. | The government failed in 2006 to extend pre-charge terror detention to a maximum of 90 days. Instead, the current 28-day limit was agreed as a compromise. |
| Ministers could use the Parliament Act to force the 42-day proposal into legislation. | Ministers could use the Parliament Act to force the 42-day proposal into legislation. |
| But BBC political editor Nick Robinson reported last week that the government had decided against this, as it would be time-consuming and controversial. | But BBC political editor Nick Robinson reported last week that the government had decided against this, as it would be time-consuming and controversial. |
| During Monday's debate police had to lock the doors to Parliament after airport protesters tried to force their way into the Palace of Westminster. | During Monday's debate police had to lock the doors to Parliament after airport protesters tried to force their way into the Palace of Westminster. |