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| Greta Gerwig, Aaron Sorkin: Hollywood Must Change | Greta Gerwig, Aaron Sorkin: Hollywood Must Change |
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| Frank Bruni, a Times Op-Ed columnist, hosted an online conversation with Greta Gerwig, the writer and director of “Lady Bird” (winner of two Golden Globe Awards, one for best motion picture, musical or comedy), and Aaron Sorkin, the writer and director of “Molly’s Game” (a Globe nominee for best motion picture screenplay), about their movies, the year in movies and the year, period. | Frank Bruni, a Times Op-Ed columnist, hosted an online conversation with Greta Gerwig, the writer and director of “Lady Bird” (winner of two Golden Globe Awards, one for best motion picture, musical or comedy), and Aaron Sorkin, the writer and director of “Molly’s Game” (a Globe nominee for best motion picture screenplay), about their movies, the year in movies and the year, period. |
| FRANK BRUNI: Greta, Aaron, welcome! It’s so great to have you here. Congratulations on your new movies, and Greta, congratulations on the Golden Globe wins for “Lady Bird.” This soon after the Globes, it’s impossible not to begin by asking this: Are we witnessing a true turning point for women in Hollywood, in terms of the way they’re treated and portrayed and the opportunities they get, or is that too hopeful? | FRANK BRUNI: Greta, Aaron, welcome! It’s so great to have you here. Congratulations on your new movies, and Greta, congratulations on the Golden Globe wins for “Lady Bird.” This soon after the Globes, it’s impossible not to begin by asking this: Are we witnessing a true turning point for women in Hollywood, in terms of the way they’re treated and portrayed and the opportunities they get, or is that too hopeful? |
| GRETA GERWIG: Thank you! It was an extraordinary night — I was lucky enough to be sitting at Aaron’s table, and I think that he can attest to my general state of euphoria. | GRETA GERWIG: Thank you! It was an extraordinary night — I was lucky enough to be sitting at Aaron’s table, and I think that he can attest to my general state of euphoria. |
| AARON SORKIN: I’ll add my congratulations to Greta and the whole “Lady Bird” team on their Golden Globe wins (as well as this morning’s Bafta nominations — I’ll see you in London), and I can indeed attest to the euphoria at Table 3. (Though there always seems to be a cloud of euphoria that surrounds Greta wherever she goes.) | AARON SORKIN: I’ll add my congratulations to Greta and the whole “Lady Bird” team on their Golden Globe wins (as well as this morning’s Bafta nominations — I’ll see you in London), and I can indeed attest to the euphoria at Table 3. (Though there always seems to be a cloud of euphoria that surrounds Greta wherever she goes.) |
| GERWIG: I think that this is a turning point for women, especially as writers, directors and producers. There was such incredible work done this year by women — Dee Rees (“Mudbound”), Patty Jenkins (“Wonder Woman”), Angelina Jolie (“First They Killed My Father”), Maggie Betts (“Novitiate”), Kathryn Bigelow (“Detroit”) and so many more — that I have great belief in the future of filmmaking being much closer to a 50-50 split between male and female creators. There are too many great filmmakers leading the charge for this not to be a turning point. | GERWIG: I think that this is a turning point for women, especially as writers, directors and producers. There was such incredible work done this year by women — Dee Rees (“Mudbound”), Patty Jenkins (“Wonder Woman”), Angelina Jolie (“First They Killed My Father”), Maggie Betts (“Novitiate”), Kathryn Bigelow (“Detroit”) and so many more — that I have great belief in the future of filmmaking being much closer to a 50-50 split between male and female creators. There are too many great filmmakers leading the charge for this not to be a turning point. |
| SORKIN: I thought Sunday night was a trumpet fanfare that did a good job of getting our attention. Now what I’m hoping for is specificity — what can I do differently today than I was doing yesterday? Without specificity, I worry that #MeToo will go the way of Occupy Wall Street, and it would be terrible to blow this opportunity. | SORKIN: I thought Sunday night was a trumpet fanfare that did a good job of getting our attention. Now what I’m hoping for is specificity — what can I do differently today than I was doing yesterday? Without specificity, I worry that #MeToo will go the way of Occupy Wall Street, and it would be terrible to blow this opportunity. |
| BRUNI: I have to cop to some divided feelings and cynicism as I watched the Globes, because all these people were congratulating themselves on their fight for women’s rights, but many of these same people turned a blind eye or deaf ear to what was going on for a long time. I heard vows. I didn’t hear apologies. Did that strike or bother either of you? | BRUNI: I have to cop to some divided feelings and cynicism as I watched the Globes, because all these people were congratulating themselves on their fight for women’s rights, but many of these same people turned a blind eye or deaf ear to what was going on for a long time. I heard vows. I didn’t hear apologies. Did that strike or bother either of you? |
| SORKIN: I’m someone who was completely ignorant of the sexually monstrous behavior that’s been reported for the last few months, so I wasn’t listening for an apology. Again, I was hoping for specific instructions. A locker room pep talk serves a good purpose, but it’s usually followed by, “We’ve got to move to zone coverage instead of playing man-to-man” (no pun intended). | SORKIN: I’m someone who was completely ignorant of the sexually monstrous behavior that’s been reported for the last few months, so I wasn’t listening for an apology. Again, I was hoping for specific instructions. A locker room pep talk serves a good purpose, but it’s usually followed by, “We’ve got to move to zone coverage instead of playing man-to-man” (no pun intended). |
| GERWIG: To speak to Aaron’s earlier point about specificity, I think that the way women have come together to lead the Time’s Up movement and to make clear goals for our industry is how we are going to move forward with purposefulness. I was very moved that the stage was given to the leaders of this movement and the people who can be change agents. These are the women who should be apologized to, and that they were given the space was meaningful. The fact that many of the women attended with feminist activists from across all industries made the night even more resonant with this moment. | GERWIG: To speak to Aaron’s earlier point about specificity, I think that the way women have come together to lead the Time’s Up movement and to make clear goals for our industry is how we are going to move forward with purposefulness. I was very moved that the stage was given to the leaders of this movement and the people who can be change agents. These are the women who should be apologized to, and that they were given the space was meaningful. The fact that many of the women attended with feminist activists from across all industries made the night even more resonant with this moment. |
| BRUNI: Both of your movies have strong, multifaceted women at their center. And Aaron, you’ve written many great women characters. Do either or both of you ascribe to the “female gaze” theory that — and I’m translating it roughly and sloppily — a woman filmmaker has a perspective that invariably leads to different kinds of characters and stories than a male filmmaker would produce? | BRUNI: Both of your movies have strong, multifaceted women at their center. And Aaron, you’ve written many great women characters. Do either or both of you ascribe to the “female gaze” theory that — and I’m translating it roughly and sloppily — a woman filmmaker has a perspective that invariably leads to different kinds of characters and stories than a male filmmaker would produce? |
| GERWIG: Aaron, you’ve created incredible female characters for your whole career, and I’ve always loved watching what the genius lady actors do with your magic words. I think all writers and artists are capable of imagining themselves into circumstances that aren’t necessarily theirs and creating a space of empathy and understanding so the audience can walk in someone else’s shoes. But I think that it is important to have female authors, and in general a diversity of authors — the frame and the perspective will necessarily be different, just as it is different from one individual to the next. | GERWIG: Aaron, you’ve created incredible female characters for your whole career, and I’ve always loved watching what the genius lady actors do with your magic words. I think all writers and artists are capable of imagining themselves into circumstances that aren’t necessarily theirs and creating a space of empathy and understanding so the audience can walk in someone else’s shoes. But I think that it is important to have female authors, and in general a diversity of authors — the frame and the perspective will necessarily be different, just as it is different from one individual to the next. |
| SORKIN: I couldn’t agree more with Greta when it comes to the importance of having a diversity of authors. That said, we shouldn’t be lured into thinking that all women think the same way and all men think the same way. I think there’s as much difference between, say, Greta and Patty Jenkins as there is between Greta and me. | SORKIN: I couldn’t agree more with Greta when it comes to the importance of having a diversity of authors. That said, we shouldn’t be lured into thinking that all women think the same way and all men think the same way. I think there’s as much difference between, say, Greta and Patty Jenkins as there is between Greta and me. |
| GERWIG: Aaron, you said perfectly what I was trying to articulate. I don’t want to lump people together by gender, even though I think the diversity is important. | GERWIG: Aaron, you said perfectly what I was trying to articulate. I don’t want to lump people together by gender, even though I think the diversity is important. |
| BRUNI: Amen to all of that. It makes me want to dig a little deeper and ask: Where does each of you come down on the whole controversy over “cultural appropriation”? Can a white author write black characters? Can Emma Stone play a character who’s part Asian? | BRUNI: Amen to all of that. It makes me want to dig a little deeper and ask: Where does each of you come down on the whole controversy over “cultural appropriation”? Can a white author write black characters? Can Emma Stone play a character who’s part Asian? |
| SORKIN: This is a tricky area. I’m in New York right now doing a workshop of “To Kill a Mockingbird,” which I’ve adapted for the stage, and so I’m writing a number of African-American characters. I have a utopian view of the arts — I want everyone to be able to write about anything. August Wilson wrote about the black experience in 20th-century America, but I would hope that he could have just as easily written “Death of a Salesman.” I think an Asian actor should be able to play the Prince of Denmark. On the other hand, crossing over into blackface raises memories of a time when that was meant to relegate a whole group of people to objects of amusement. It’s a tough one. Artists are meant to be leaders and to take risks, and sometimes when you take a risk you’re going to hit the third rail. | SORKIN: This is a tricky area. I’m in New York right now doing a workshop of “To Kill a Mockingbird,” which I’ve adapted for the stage, and so I’m writing a number of African-American characters. I have a utopian view of the arts — I want everyone to be able to write about anything. August Wilson wrote about the black experience in 20th-century America, but I would hope that he could have just as easily written “Death of a Salesman.” I think an Asian actor should be able to play the Prince of Denmark. On the other hand, crossing over into blackface raises memories of a time when that was meant to relegate a whole group of people to objects of amusement. It’s a tough one. Artists are meant to be leaders and to take risks, and sometimes when you take a risk you’re going to hit the third rail. |
| GERWIG: I think that having this conversation is essential and that we, as a culture, are just figuring out how to have it with nuance and sensitivity. As an artist I want to be able to be inclusive and tell all different kinds of stories, but I also don’t want to tell a story that would be better told by another author. | GERWIG: I think that having this conversation is essential and that we, as a culture, are just figuring out how to have it with nuance and sensitivity. As an artist I want to be able to be inclusive and tell all different kinds of stories, but I also don’t want to tell a story that would be better told by another author. |
| SORKIN: Greta, unsurprisingly, just said it better than I did. | SORKIN: Greta, unsurprisingly, just said it better than I did. |
| BRUNI: Let me get one last hot-button issue out of the way before we move back to your specific movies and … the upcoming Oscars! Will Kevin Spacey work again? Should he? This question came up with Roman Polanski, it comes up with Woody Allen. Should we care about, reward or punish what artists do beyond the parameters of their art? Should it affect their opportunities? Their reception? | BRUNI: Let me get one last hot-button issue out of the way before we move back to your specific movies and … the upcoming Oscars! Will Kevin Spacey work again? Should he? This question came up with Roman Polanski, it comes up with Woody Allen. Should we care about, reward or punish what artists do beyond the parameters of their art? Should it affect their opportunities? Their reception? |
| GERWIG: I would like to speak specifically to the Woody Allen question, which I have been asked about a couple of times recently, as I worked for him on a film that came out in 2012. It is something that I take very seriously and have been thinking deeply about, and it has taken me time to gather my thoughts and say what I mean to say. I can only speak for myself and what I’ve come to is this: If I had known then what I know now, I would not have acted in the film. I have not worked for him again, and I will not work for him again. Dylan Farrow’s two different pieces made me realize that I increased another woman’s pain, and I was heartbroken by that realization. I grew up on his movies, and they have informed me as an artist, and I cannot change that fact now, but I can make different decisions moving forward. | GERWIG: I would like to speak specifically to the Woody Allen question, which I have been asked about a couple of times recently, as I worked for him on a film that came out in 2012. It is something that I take very seriously and have been thinking deeply about, and it has taken me time to gather my thoughts and say what I mean to say. I can only speak for myself and what I’ve come to is this: If I had known then what I know now, I would not have acted in the film. I have not worked for him again, and I will not work for him again. Dylan Farrow’s two different pieces made me realize that I increased another woman’s pain, and I was heartbroken by that realization. I grew up on his movies, and they have informed me as an artist, and I cannot change that fact now, but I can make different decisions moving forward. |
| SORKIN: I don’t like seeing anyone get disappeared. Personally, I don’t think Kevin’s going to be able to find his way back, but I’m still rooting for a miraculous transformation. | SORKIN: I don’t like seeing anyone get disappeared. Personally, I don’t think Kevin’s going to be able to find his way back, but I’m still rooting for a miraculous transformation. |
| BRUNI: Thank you both for your candor. In reward: a happier topic! We’re in the midst right now of people casting votes for the Oscar nominations, which will be announced on Jan. 23 and may well include both of your names. From a cultural standpoint, how much does who and what gets nominated — and who and what wins — really matter? Can you think of a nominee or victor that really changed America by dint of that recognition? | BRUNI: Thank you both for your candor. In reward: a happier topic! We’re in the midst right now of people casting votes for the Oscar nominations, which will be announced on Jan. 23 and may well include both of your names. From a cultural standpoint, how much does who and what gets nominated — and who and what wins — really matter? Can you think of a nominee or victor that really changed America by dint of that recognition? |
| SORKIN: It’s sort of a two-part question, so I’ll answer in two parts. Most of the films in the awards conversation this year are lower-budget films (“Dunkirk” and a few others notwithstanding). High-profile award nominations give films like “Lady Bird” and “Molly’s Game” a reach they wouldn’t otherwise have. As for a nomination or a win that changed the culture? I’ll go with Hattie McDaniel. | SORKIN: It’s sort of a two-part question, so I’ll answer in two parts. Most of the films in the awards conversation this year are lower-budget films (“Dunkirk” and a few others notwithstanding). High-profile award nominations give films like “Lady Bird” and “Molly’s Game” a reach they wouldn’t otherwise have. As for a nomination or a win that changed the culture? I’ll go with Hattie McDaniel. |
| GERWIG: I do think it matters — when Kathryn Bigelow won the Oscar for best director it meant a great deal to me, personally. I imagine that it impacted other young women as well who had dreams of being a director. Suddenly, there she was, and more seemed possible to me. Also, I love the Mark Harris book “Pictures at a Revolution,” which I think does an amazing job of looking at a moment of culture through the best-picture nominees of 1968 and what it meant for a changing Hollywood and a changing country. | GERWIG: I do think it matters — when Kathryn Bigelow won the Oscar for best director it meant a great deal to me, personally. I imagine that it impacted other young women as well who had dreams of being a director. Suddenly, there she was, and more seemed possible to me. Also, I love the Mark Harris book “Pictures at a Revolution,” which I think does an amazing job of looking at a moment of culture through the best-picture nominees of 1968 and what it meant for a changing Hollywood and a changing country. |
| BRUNI: Aaron, I have to ask about the White House. You created fictional administrations in “The West Wing” and “The American President,” stretching the truth. Could you ever have stretched it so far as to come up with something like the Trump administration? | BRUNI: Aaron, I have to ask about the White House. You created fictional administrations in “The West Wing” and “The American President,” stretching the truth. Could you ever have stretched it so far as to come up with something like the Trump administration? |
| SORKIN: If I wrote a Trumpian White House, no one would believe it, but furthermore, no one would care. Donald Trump isn’t an interesting dramatic character. You can learn everything you need to know about him in 140 characters. Josiah Bartlet sweated over dilemmas. Trump sweats over bad press. | SORKIN: If I wrote a Trumpian White House, no one would believe it, but furthermore, no one would care. Donald Trump isn’t an interesting dramatic character. You can learn everything you need to know about him in 140 characters. Josiah Bartlet sweated over dilemmas. Trump sweats over bad press. |
| BRUNI: “Lady Bird” and “Molly’s Game” are classic examples of character-driven stories, dependent on nuance and pace and subtlety, and we hear constantly about how hard it can be to get such movies made in the blockbuster, explosion-in-the-final-reel era. Is the expansion of other formats — Netflix, Amazon, etc. — creating more opportunities along these lines, or are you still swimming against the current? | BRUNI: “Lady Bird” and “Molly’s Game” are classic examples of character-driven stories, dependent on nuance and pace and subtlety, and we hear constantly about how hard it can be to get such movies made in the blockbuster, explosion-in-the-final-reel era. Is the expansion of other formats — Netflix, Amazon, etc. — creating more opportunities along these lines, or are you still swimming against the current? |
| GERWIG: Yes, I think Netflix and Amazon are creating new space for great writing, great acting and great directing, and new ways for audiences to watch different kinds of stories — movies, mini-series, long-form television, episodic television. All of that is very exciting for me as a fan of good work — there is so much of it! That being said, I have a soft spot for the experience of watching films in a movie theater. I’m essentially stealing this from Walter Murch’s afterword to “In the Blink of an Eye,” but I think that being in a movie theater puts you in a place of both collective experience and vulnerability that is impossible to achieve at home. I’m paraphrasing, but he said something close to this: Going to the movies always starts with one person saying to another, “Let’s go out.” And that means that you are willingly taking yourself out of your comfort zone and allowing yourself the possibility of transformation. I like that, and even if it is something that is swimming against the current, I think I’m just going to keep at it. I’m a good swimmer. | |
| SORKIN: I’m right with Greta on this. I want to believe that nothing will ever replace the experience of being in a theater with a group of strangers as the house lights go down. I’m grateful that Amazon and Netflix have come on the scene. I’m grateful for studios like STX. I try to write movies like the movies I loved growing up — “All About Eve,” “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?,” “Broadcast News” — these are dialogue-driven movies with reasonable budgets. Those are the kinds of movies that are most in danger right now. If I knew how to write a hundred-million-dollar movie, I’d be on safer ground. | |
| BRUNI: Aaron, I can’t lose the opportunity of having you here to ask you, as the writer of “The Social Network,” what you made of Facebook’s role in the last presidential election. Did you see that coming? Are you satisfied or hopeful that Mark Zuckerberg and his crew can and will make the necessary fixes? | BRUNI: Aaron, I can’t lose the opportunity of having you here to ask you, as the writer of “The Social Network,” what you made of Facebook’s role in the last presidential election. Did you see that coming? Are you satisfied or hopeful that Mark Zuckerberg and his crew can and will make the necessary fixes? |
| SORKIN: I know less about 2018 Facebook than I do about 2005 Facebook, but no, I absolutely didn’t anticipate the role that the site played in last year’s election. I wonder if there’s another movie there, and if so, how I can crank the budget up to a hundred million dollars. | |
| BRUNI: And a final question to you, Greta, along with a thanks to both of you for your time — and for your work. You’re younger than many of your peers in Hollywood — certainly than other directors of movies as skilled and celebrated as “Lady Bird.” Does that change your perspective on stories and on the industry? Does it inform what you expect from your career? | BRUNI: And a final question to you, Greta, along with a thanks to both of you for your time — and for your work. You’re younger than many of your peers in Hollywood — certainly than other directors of movies as skilled and celebrated as “Lady Bird.” Does that change your perspective on stories and on the industry? Does it inform what you expect from your career? |
| GERWIG: It felt like it took me so long to get to the place of writing and directing my own film, but now I feel that it’s just the beginning. When I was in preproduction for “Lady Bird,” I realized that it had been exactly 10 years of being in the industry. I am grateful for all the love that “Lady Bird” has received, especially because it allows me to do what I’ve always wanted to do, which is make more movies. And because I’m in this position of privilege, I believe I have an obligation to help other women make their movies. I don’t want to be a soloist, I want to be in an orchestra, and there are so many talented people who haven’t gotten their first shot. | GERWIG: It felt like it took me so long to get to the place of writing and directing my own film, but now I feel that it’s just the beginning. When I was in preproduction for “Lady Bird,” I realized that it had been exactly 10 years of being in the industry. I am grateful for all the love that “Lady Bird” has received, especially because it allows me to do what I’ve always wanted to do, which is make more movies. And because I’m in this position of privilege, I believe I have an obligation to help other women make their movies. I don’t want to be a soloist, I want to be in an orchestra, and there are so many talented people who haven’t gotten their first shot. |
| SORKIN: It was either John Lennon or Paul McCartney who said, I’d rather have a band than a Rolls-Royce. I know how he felt. I like team sports more than individual sports. I like bands more than solo acts. I’ve gotten to play with some of the best bands ever. | SORKIN: It was either John Lennon or Paul McCartney who said, I’d rather have a band than a Rolls-Royce. I know how he felt. I like team sports more than individual sports. I like bands more than solo acts. I’ve gotten to play with some of the best bands ever. |
| BRUNI: We are, sadly, out of time. Promise to come back again. Promise more movies. And good luck during the rest of the awards seasons. Thanks. | BRUNI: We are, sadly, out of time. Promise to come back again. Promise more movies. And good luck during the rest of the awards seasons. Thanks. |
| GERWIG: I promise! Thank you so much for having us both here. Aaron, it is just as thrilling to watch you type as I knew it would be. | GERWIG: I promise! Thank you so much for having us both here. Aaron, it is just as thrilling to watch you type as I knew it would be. |
| SORKIN: I was just going to say it was a thrill watching your brain work. Thanks, Frank, and keep up the great work. See you soon, G.G. | SORKIN: I was just going to say it was a thrill watching your brain work. Thanks, Frank, and keep up the great work. See you soon, G.G. |