This article is from the source 'nytimes' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.

You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/opinion/its-not-the-fault-of-the-sandwich-shop-readers-debate-david-brookss-column.html

The article has changed 2 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.

Version 0 Version 1
‘It’s Not the Fault of the Sandwich Shop’: Readers Debate David Brooks’s Column ‘It’s Not the Fault of the Sandwich Shop’: Readers Debate David Brooks’s Column
(about 9 hours later)
What if it’s not a college degree that makes you successful, but whether you can pronounce “soppressata”?What if it’s not a college degree that makes you successful, but whether you can pronounce “soppressata”?
David Brooks’s column “How We Are Ruining America” struck a nerve among New York Times readers, who wrote to us by the thousands to debate the social codes of the elite. Readers also took on the roles of money and education, or the lack thereof, in success. And yes, gourmet sandwiches came under fire too. Mr. Brooks’s article topped the Times’s Most Emailed list and received more than 3,200 comments. Here are excerpts from the article’s comments, some of which have been edited for length and clarity.David Brooks’s column “How We Are Ruining America” struck a nerve among New York Times readers, who wrote to us by the thousands to debate the social codes of the elite. Readers also took on the roles of money and education, or the lack thereof, in success. And yes, gourmet sandwiches came under fire too. Mr. Brooks’s article topped the Times’s Most Emailed list and received more than 3,200 comments. Here are excerpts from the article’s comments, some of which have been edited for length and clarity.
Mr. Brooks’s anecdote about taking a friend to a gourmet sandwich shop, whose menu of Italian cheeses and meats, he said, illustrated the cultural barriers between the more- and less-educated, received much criticism, snark and humor.Mr. Brooks’s anecdote about taking a friend to a gourmet sandwich shop, whose menu of Italian cheeses and meats, he said, illustrated the cultural barriers between the more- and less-educated, received much criticism, snark and humor.
Recently I took a friend with doctoral degree to lunch. Insensitively I led him into a McDonald’s. Suddenly I saw his face freeze up as he was confronted with menu items like “hamburger” and “fries” and ingredients like ketchup, mustard and a sesame seed bun. I quickly asked him if he wanted to go somewhere else, and he anxiously nodded yes, and we ate gluten-free vegan Thai.Recently I took a friend with doctoral degree to lunch. Insensitively I led him into a McDonald’s. Suddenly I saw his face freeze up as he was confronted with menu items like “hamburger” and “fries” and ingredients like ketchup, mustard and a sesame seed bun. I quickly asked him if he wanted to go somewhere else, and he anxiously nodded yes, and we ate gluten-free vegan Thai.
— SB in New York— SB in New York
After reading David Brooks’ column today I promptly marched into my neighborhood “gourmet” Italian deli and accused them of stifling the lower classes with their elitist panini. With my one year of technical college, I stood my ground and told them in no uncertain terms could they continue to repress us with their melanzana and pecorino.After reading David Brooks’ column today I promptly marched into my neighborhood “gourmet” Italian deli and accused them of stifling the lower classes with their elitist panini. With my one year of technical college, I stood my ground and told them in no uncertain terms could they continue to repress us with their melanzana and pecorino.
— GT in Washington— GT in Washington
But the controversial paragraph also generated sympathy for those who might lack the confidence or the curiosity to overcome that class barriers. But the controversial paragraph also generated sympathy for those who might lack the confidence or the curiosity to overcome class barriers.
I feel sorry for your friend. By scurrying her away from the sandwich shop to a Mexican restaurant where she would feel more comfortable, you reinforced her misguided notion that she didn’t belong there. Instead of having a case of “class panic,” you should have welcomed her to the new experience. If you’re content to stay in your limited group, it’s not the fault of the sandwich shop.I feel sorry for your friend. By scurrying her away from the sandwich shop to a Mexican restaurant where she would feel more comfortable, you reinforced her misguided notion that she didn’t belong there. Instead of having a case of “class panic,” you should have welcomed her to the new experience. If you’re content to stay in your limited group, it’s not the fault of the sandwich shop.
— Mcarrca in San Francisco— Mcarrca in San Francisco
I am an upper-middle-class, white-collar worker who was a bit intimidated at my first Starbucks encounter, having been raised on Chock Full o’Nuts coffee. But I persevered. If you have been brought up to expect and accept that you are not supposed to be comfortable in mainstream or elite culture, you will not push yourself beyond what is familiar.I am an upper-middle-class, white-collar worker who was a bit intimidated at my first Starbucks encounter, having been raised on Chock Full o’Nuts coffee. But I persevered. If you have been brought up to expect and accept that you are not supposed to be comfortable in mainstream or elite culture, you will not push yourself beyond what is familiar.
— Chris in Virginia— Chris in Virginia
Some readers said that social codes between classes are a real issue.Some readers said that social codes between classes are a real issue.
As a person from the working class who pursued an education and climbed into the next social class, I am sympathetic to the [working class’s] plight. I didn’t know the codes of the upper class and felt like an outsider. Part of climbing the social ladder is learning those codes.As a person from the working class who pursued an education and climbed into the next social class, I am sympathetic to the [working class’s] plight. I didn’t know the codes of the upper class and felt like an outsider. Part of climbing the social ladder is learning those codes.
— Crossroads in West Lafayette, Ind.— Crossroads in West Lafayette, Ind.
Cultural habits, skills, awareness, knowledge are important, and Brooks does have a point. The trick is to communicate better without watering down or deceiving.Cultural habits, skills, awareness, knowledge are important, and Brooks does have a point. The trick is to communicate better without watering down or deceiving.
— JustThinkin’ in Texas— JustThinkin’ in Texas
I went to the most exclusive private boarding schools in the 1970s. I come from a lower-middle-class family, and almost all of my tuition and boarding costs were paid for by scholarships. Those classmates of mine today are the top two percent, the senior executives, the senators and governors, the college and university deans and presidents, the doctors, lawyers and award-winning authors, the ambassadors, the heads of think tanks, the heads of the most prestigious nonprofits.I went to the most exclusive private boarding schools in the 1970s. I come from a lower-middle-class family, and almost all of my tuition and boarding costs were paid for by scholarships. Those classmates of mine today are the top two percent, the senior executives, the senators and governors, the college and university deans and presidents, the doctors, lawyers and award-winning authors, the ambassadors, the heads of think tanks, the heads of the most prestigious nonprofits.
But, I am still that snot-nosed kid from a blue-collar mill town, and what Mr. Brooks is saying is absolutely true — it is grossly unfair and it is rigged.But, I am still that snot-nosed kid from a blue-collar mill town, and what Mr. Brooks is saying is absolutely true — it is grossly unfair and it is rigged.
— Sparky in Peru, Mass.— Sparky in Peru, Mass.
Other readers said that money, not the cultural markers that Mr. Brooks described, is what creates real roadblocks to success in America.Other readers said that money, not the cultural markers that Mr. Brooks described, is what creates real roadblocks to success in America.
You know what the biggest barrier to upward mobility in America is? Money. It’s not “social codes” or the “political correctness” of the liberal class, as you are desperately trying to imply. It’s money.You know what the biggest barrier to upward mobility in America is? Money. It’s not “social codes” or the “political correctness” of the liberal class, as you are desperately trying to imply. It’s money.
— John T. in New York— John T. in New York
Mr. Brooks . . . always sees the solution [to inequality] as society magically becoming more spiritual, charitable and equitable. He will not admit that unfettered markets exacerbate the disparity he decries.Mr. Brooks . . . always sees the solution [to inequality] as society magically becoming more spiritual, charitable and equitable. He will not admit that unfettered markets exacerbate the disparity he decries.
— Syfrederick in Providence, R.I.— Syfrederick in Providence, R.I.
I grew up in a very blue-collar neighborhood. My father had a 10th-grade education. I paid my way through college. I received no financial assistance except for a minor $500 scholarship one semester. There is no way that I know of that this could be done today. Quite simply, the costs of goods and services have accelerated while salaries have stagnated and created even greater class divisions. The opportunities have diminished for the lower class, and they, along with their parents, cannot make up for the differences in the cost of living. It’s much harder now to break out of the lower or middle class.I grew up in a very blue-collar neighborhood. My father had a 10th-grade education. I paid my way through college. I received no financial assistance except for a minor $500 scholarship one semester. There is no way that I know of that this could be done today. Quite simply, the costs of goods and services have accelerated while salaries have stagnated and created even greater class divisions. The opportunities have diminished for the lower class, and they, along with their parents, cannot make up for the differences in the cost of living. It’s much harder now to break out of the lower or middle class.
— Don in Orlando— Don in Orlando
Some readers said that education could mitigate the disparity between economic classes, but only if college becomes more affordable.Some readers said that education could mitigate the disparity between economic classes, but only if college becomes more affordable.
Rather than focusing on differences between elite and working-class cultures, surely our society would benefit more by easing the crushing burden of college debt and ensuring access to higher education for the economically disadvantaged.Rather than focusing on differences between elite and working-class cultures, surely our society would benefit more by easing the crushing burden of college debt and ensuring access to higher education for the economically disadvantaged.
— James Lee in Arlington, Va.— James Lee in Arlington, Va.
There are cultural and status markers, but they are more often tied to money and not education. A Ph.D. does not mean that one will ever be comfortable shopping in Tiffany’s unless there is a personal endowment to back it up. Try lowering tuition in the U.S. and making college affordable, and many “codes” might be broken.There are cultural and status markers, but they are more often tied to money and not education. A Ph.D. does not mean that one will ever be comfortable shopping in Tiffany’s unless there is a personal endowment to back it up. Try lowering tuition in the U.S. and making college affordable, and many “codes” might be broken.
— Joshua Schwartz in Ramat-Gan, Israel— Joshua Schwartz in Ramat-Gan, Israel
Some readers defended their gains as a product of hard work, not a rigid class structure.Some readers defended their gains as a product of hard work, not a rigid class structure.
The middle class is creating structural barriers for the poor from getting to the next level? Who’s got the time and energy to do that? We are too busy keeping our jobs, taking the kids to soccer or karate practice and helping them with homework! No one is trying to keep anyone else down. Get married, stay married and keep working hard. That’s it.The middle class is creating structural barriers for the poor from getting to the next level? Who’s got the time and energy to do that? We are too busy keeping our jobs, taking the kids to soccer or karate practice and helping them with homework! No one is trying to keep anyone else down. Get married, stay married and keep working hard. That’s it.
— Anup Vidwans in Pennsylvania— Anup Vidwans in Pennsylvania
Anyone who can learn what a tamale is can learn what sopressata is. I did and I don’t feel like I’m in any special club, just aware of the world around me. Here’s a more actionable idea for people of all classes: Work hard, live within your means, pick your priorities and take responsibility for them. And get over yourself.Anyone who can learn what a tamale is can learn what sopressata is. I did and I don’t feel like I’m in any special club, just aware of the world around me. Here’s a more actionable idea for people of all classes: Work hard, live within your means, pick your priorities and take responsibility for them. And get over yourself.
— BG in New York— BG in New York
Other readers said a focus on education is misguided; there are more paths to success beyond higher education.Other readers said a focus on education is misguided; there are more paths to success beyond higher education.
I think there is great value in bringing workers in from high school, without burdening them with the need to pay the hefty tuition of college. There are some professions which benefit from college, but there are so many jobs today where the entry requirement is much too high, and it doesn’t match the actual job. We have disappointed college graduates who find themselves “unfulfilled” in their work. They thought they had more value than they really do.I think there is great value in bringing workers in from high school, without burdening them with the need to pay the hefty tuition of college. There are some professions which benefit from college, but there are so many jobs today where the entry requirement is much too high, and it doesn’t match the actual job. We have disappointed college graduates who find themselves “unfulfilled” in their work. They thought they had more value than they really do.
— David in Peoria, Ill.— David in Peoria, Ill.
The one equalizer used to be the military, especially the draft. It forced all sectors of the population to interact with each other and see the humanity on all sides. What is needed is a public service program that mixes all together, no exemptions.The one equalizer used to be the military, especially the draft. It forced all sectors of the population to interact with each other and see the humanity on all sides. What is needed is a public service program that mixes all together, no exemptions.
— Tom in Chicago— Tom in Chicago
State college graduate here. Grew up on welfare, A.F.D.C., Medicaid, public housing vouchers. Worked three jobs to get through college. I agree that there are structural barriers to success for the poor, but focusing on admissions to elite universities is ridiculous. Let’s focus on getting everyone moved up to the middle. Counseling kids to vocational training instead of college, if that isn’t their deal, would be more worthwhile vs. crying tears over elite colleges’ admissions policies.State college graduate here. Grew up on welfare, A.F.D.C., Medicaid, public housing vouchers. Worked three jobs to get through college. I agree that there are structural barriers to success for the poor, but focusing on admissions to elite universities is ridiculous. Let’s focus on getting everyone moved up to the middle. Counseling kids to vocational training instead of college, if that isn’t their deal, would be more worthwhile vs. crying tears over elite colleges’ admissions policies.
— Jen in Connecticut— Jen in Connecticut