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| Le Pen-Macron Debate in France Quickly Turns Vicious | Le Pen-Macron Debate in France Quickly Turns Vicious |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| PARIS — Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron faced each other on Wednesday evening in their only head-to-head debate before a runoff election on Sunday for the French presidency. The debate quickly turned vicious; she portrayed him as a heartless and unpatriotic capitalist, while he called her a self-serving liar and a dangerous extremist. | PARIS — Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron faced each other on Wednesday evening in their only head-to-head debate before a runoff election on Sunday for the French presidency. The debate quickly turned vicious; she portrayed him as a heartless and unpatriotic capitalist, while he called her a self-serving liar and a dangerous extremist. |
| Ms. Le Pen, the fiery leader of the far-right National Front, railed against globalization and immigration, and portrayed her rival as weak on terrorism. Mr. Macron, a former investment banker running for public office for the first time, acknowledged the gravity of France’s problems and derided Ms. Le Pen’s proposals as simplistic. The wide-ranging debate touched on France’s 20th-century history, including the World War II-era roundup of Jews and the Algerian War, and on Islamist fundamentalism and the future of the European Union. | |
| The debate, scheduled to last two hours and 20 minutes, was moderated by the journalists Christophe Jakubyszyn and Nathalie Saint-Cricq. | |
| Ms. Le Pen, smiling and mocking in tone, opened by trying to tie Mr. Macron to the deeply unpopular President François Hollande, under whom he served as economy minister. | |
| “Mr. Macron is the candidate of savage globalization,” Ms. Le Pen said, portraying herself as a defender of the small businesses and farmers and Mr. Macron, a former investment banker, as a soulless financier who serves the interests of big business and the European Union. She said he would promote a capitalist “war of all against all.” | “Mr. Macron is the candidate of savage globalization,” Ms. Le Pen said, portraying herself as a defender of the small businesses and farmers and Mr. Macron, a former investment banker, as a soulless financier who serves the interests of big business and the European Union. She said he would promote a capitalist “war of all against all.” |
| Mr. Macron cast Ms. Le Pen as the heir to an ugly far-right tradition in France. “Over 40 years in this country, we’ve had Le Pens who’ve been candidates for the presidency,” he said, tying Ms. Le Pen to her father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who founded the far-right National Front and who ran for president in 2002. | Mr. Macron cast Ms. Le Pen as the heir to an ugly far-right tradition in France. “Over 40 years in this country, we’ve had Le Pens who’ve been candidates for the presidency,” he said, tying Ms. Le Pen to her father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who founded the far-right National Front and who ran for president in 2002. |
| Mr. Macron said the question was whether the French wanted “the spirit of defeat,” and said that in contrast,“I carry the spirit of French conquest, because France has always succeeded, France has always succeeded in the world.” | Mr. Macron said the question was whether the French wanted “the spirit of defeat,” and said that in contrast,“I carry the spirit of French conquest, because France has always succeeded, France has always succeeded in the world.” |
| The first question was about the economy, especially the unemployment rate, which is particularly high among the young. | |
| “We must give our small and medium-size enterprises the opportunity to create more jobs,” Mr. Macron said, urging simplification of regulations and making it easier for businesses to start — and to fail. “Your strategy is simply to say a lot of lies and say everything that is wrong in the country, but you are not proposing anything,” he told Ms. Le Pen. | “We must give our small and medium-size enterprises the opportunity to create more jobs,” Mr. Macron said, urging simplification of regulations and making it easier for businesses to start — and to fail. “Your strategy is simply to say a lot of lies and say everything that is wrong in the country, but you are not proposing anything,” he told Ms. Le Pen. |
| Ms. Le Pen retorted that Mr. Macron represented only corporate interests. “You do not think of the best interests of the nation,” she said. “You defend private interests.” She referred sarcastically to “your friends with whom you get drinks at La Rotonde,” referring to a dinner Mr. Macron had at an upscale Paris restaurant after the first round of the election, a meal that has been used to portray him as out of touch. | |
| The conversation then turned to a Whirlpool tumble dryer factory in Amiens, Mr. Macron’s hometown, that is threatened with closure. Mr. Le Pen made a surprise visit to the plant last week as Mr. Macron was meeting with union leaders; some workers jeered him, although he mollified some of them by discussing their concerns. | The conversation then turned to a Whirlpool tumble dryer factory in Amiens, Mr. Macron’s hometown, that is threatened with closure. Mr. Le Pen made a surprise visit to the plant last week as Mr. Macron was meeting with union leaders; some workers jeered him, although he mollified some of them by discussing their concerns. |
| In one exchange, Ms. Le Pen said that she would tax the products of companies that outsourced jobs and that she wanted to set up a sovereign investment fund, led by chief executives, to invest in struggling French companies. | In one exchange, Ms. Le Pen said that she would tax the products of companies that outsourced jobs and that she wanted to set up a sovereign investment fund, led by chief executives, to invest in struggling French companies. |
| Mr. Macron said such programs already existed. As the exchange became increasingly heated, Mr. Macron accused Ms. Le Pen of peddling “nonsense” and she shot back,“Don’t play with me.” | Mr. Macron said such programs already existed. As the exchange became increasingly heated, Mr. Macron accused Ms. Le Pen of peddling “nonsense” and she shot back,“Don’t play with me.” |
| “I’m not playing, unfortunately — it’s sad,” he said. | “I’m not playing, unfortunately — it’s sad,” he said. |
| “I see that you are trying to play student and teacher with me, but as far as I’m concerned it isn’t particularly my thing,” Ms. Le Pen continued, in what could be seen as an implicit reference to Mr. Macron’s wife, a former drama teacher whom he met while in high school. | “I see that you are trying to play student and teacher with me, but as far as I’m concerned it isn’t particularly my thing,” Ms. Le Pen continued, in what could be seen as an implicit reference to Mr. Macron’s wife, a former drama teacher whom he met while in high school. |
| Some of the sharpest exchanges occurred around the topic of terrorism, which has claimed about 240 lives in France since the beginning of 2015. | Some of the sharpest exchanges occurred around the topic of terrorism, which has claimed about 240 lives in France since the beginning of 2015. |
| Ms. Le Pen called for stripping the French citizenship of people of dual nationality who are suspected of terrorist activity; closing mosques suspected of fostering extremism; expelling hate preachers; securing France’s borders; and expanding prisons. Mr. Macron called for better intelligence gathering and sharing, the hiring of more police officers, and intensifying online surveillance of extremist activities. | |
| “We must attack the root of evil — the root of the evil is the exponential development of Islamic fundamentalism on our territory,” Ms. Le Pen said. | “We must attack the root of evil — the root of the evil is the exponential development of Islamic fundamentalism on our territory,” Ms. Le Pen said. |
| Mr. Macron, citing the findings of Gilles Kepel, a scholar of Islam, said that a victory by Ms. Le Pen, with her anti-Islamic message, was a fervent wish of jihadists who wanted a war of religions. He said Ms. Le Pen’s proposal to strip citizenship from suspected terrorists would do nothing to stop a determined suicide bomber, and he called her antiterrorism proposals “snake oil.” | Mr. Macron, citing the findings of Gilles Kepel, a scholar of Islam, said that a victory by Ms. Le Pen, with her anti-Islamic message, was a fervent wish of jihadists who wanted a war of religions. He said Ms. Le Pen’s proposal to strip citizenship from suspected terrorists would do nothing to stop a determined suicide bomber, and he called her antiterrorism proposals “snake oil.” |
| France’s history also came up. Ms. Le Pen accused Mr. Macron of propagating hatred by calling France’s colonization of Algeria a crime against humanity; Mr. Macron said he regretted any offense he had caused. Soon after, Mr. Macron attacked Ms. Le Pen’s denial of French responsibility for the roundup of French Jews during World War II. | |
| “France was not guilty of this appalling horror,” Ms. Le Pen said of the notorious 1942 roundup of Jews in a stadium known as the Vel’ d’Hiv. She said that she blamed the collaborationist Vichy regime for the roundup, and said she did not consider it to have been the legitimate government at the time. (Charles de Gaulle’s government in exile in London was, she added.) | |
| The two candidates clashed on the euro and on the European Union; Mr. Macron said that European institutions needed reform, while Ms. Le Pen said he would bend to the will of Germany’s chancellor, Angela Merkel. France’s real competitor is China, not Germany, he replied. | |
| Mr. Macron said a strong and united Europe would be the best response to the populist message put forth by President Trump, and he castigated Ms. Le Pen for her coziness with Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin. Ms. Le Pen said France should be “equidistant” from both Russia and the United States. “Russia has not expressed hostility toward France,” she said. “I do not care what the relations between the United States and Russia are.” | |
| Mr. Macron placed first, and Ms. Le Pen second, in the first round, on April 23, edging out nine other candidates, including François Fillon from the center-right Republicans; Benoît Hamon, the Socialist candidate; and the far-left candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon. | |
| Sunday will be the first runoff election in the history of the French Fifth Republic, which began in 1958, without a candidate from the two major parties participating. Mr. Fillon and Mr. Hamon have thrown their support to Mr. Macron, but Mr. Mélenchon has demurred, saying only that he could not vote for Ms. Le Pen. | Sunday will be the first runoff election in the history of the French Fifth Republic, which began in 1958, without a candidate from the two major parties participating. Mr. Fillon and Mr. Hamon have thrown their support to Mr. Macron, but Mr. Mélenchon has demurred, saying only that he could not vote for Ms. Le Pen. |
| Ms. Le Pen, unlike Mr. Macron, is a political veteran, and has more debates under her belt. But this is the first time that a far-right politician has made it to the second round of a debate. | Ms. Le Pen, unlike Mr. Macron, is a political veteran, and has more debates under her belt. But this is the first time that a far-right politician has made it to the second round of a debate. |
| In 2002, when Ms. Le Pen’s father reached the second round of the elections, his center-right opponent, Jacques Chirac, refused to debate him, saying that to do so would contribute to the normalization of “hate and intolerance.” Mr. Le Pen called it a “pathetic cop-out.” | In 2002, when Ms. Le Pen’s father reached the second round of the elections, his center-right opponent, Jacques Chirac, refused to debate him, saying that to do so would contribute to the normalization of “hate and intolerance.” Mr. Le Pen called it a “pathetic cop-out.” |
| While Mr. Macron and Ms. Le Pen jousted twice in the first-round debates alongside some or all of the nine other candidates, they have never faced off head-to-head. | While Mr. Macron and Ms. Le Pen jousted twice in the first-round debates alongside some or all of the nine other candidates, they have never faced off head-to-head. |
| Historically, France’s second-round presidential debates are fine-tuned events that attract millions of viewers, etching the best quips and comebacks into France’s collective memory. | Historically, France’s second-round presidential debates are fine-tuned events that attract millions of viewers, etching the best quips and comebacks into France’s collective memory. |
| But the debates have never significantly turned the tide in favor of one candidate, in part because they occur at a stage in the campaign when most voters have made up their minds. Polls still predict that Mr. Macron will prevail on Sunday with about 60 percent of votes. | But the debates have never significantly turned the tide in favor of one candidate, in part because they occur at a stage in the campaign when most voters have made up their minds. Polls still predict that Mr. Macron will prevail on Sunday with about 60 percent of votes. |