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| Ex-MI5 chief attacks 42-day plan | Ex-MI5 chief attacks 42-day plan |
| (10 minutes later) | |
| The former head of MI5 has dismissed government plans to extend the time terror suspects can be held to 42 days as not "workable". | |
| Baroness Manningham-Buller, who stepped down from the role last year, told peers she disagreed on a "practical basis as well as a principled one". | |
| The House of Lords is widely expected to block the plan, which passed through the Commons by just nine votes in June. | The House of Lords is widely expected to block the plan, which passed through the Commons by just nine votes in June. |
| Former Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer has also spoken out against the plan. | Former Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer has also spoken out against the plan. |
| The government wants to extend the maximum period a terror suspect can be detained without charge from 28 to 42 days - it says this is needed to deal with increasingly complex plots. | The government wants to extend the maximum period a terror suspect can be detained without charge from 28 to 42 days - it says this is needed to deal with increasingly complex plots. |
| 'Ridiculous' | 'Ridiculous' |
| But a rebellion by Labour MPs in the Commons meant the measure was passed there only thanks to DUP MPs' backing. | But a rebellion by Labour MPs in the Commons meant the measure was passed there only thanks to DUP MPs' backing. |
| Prime Minister Gordon Brown's plan looks set to face an even tougher battle in the Lords, where the combined total of Tory and Lib Dem peers outnumber Labour members. | Prime Minister Gordon Brown's plan looks set to face an even tougher battle in the Lords, where the combined total of Tory and Lib Dem peers outnumber Labour members. |
| We face an unprecedented terrorist threat Security Minister Lord West | We face an unprecedented terrorist threat Security Minister Lord West |
| Baroness Manningham-Buller, in her maiden speech to the House of Lords, said: "I don't see, on a principled basis, as well as a practical one, that these proposals are in any way workable." | |
| She added that a "broad cross-party consensus" on fighting terror was needed. | |
| One of those Labour peers, Lord Falconer, said he would oppose the plans "root and branch". | One of those Labour peers, Lord Falconer, said he would oppose the plans "root and branch". |
| He said: "I'm absolutely clear that there's no advantage for fighting terrorism that will be obtained from extending detentions to 42 days." | |
| He added that the extra 14 days available to question suspects and gather evidence would "make no difference" to the police, and that to say so was a "ridiculous assertion". | He added that the extra 14 days available to question suspects and gather evidence would "make no difference" to the police, and that to say so was a "ridiculous assertion". |
| 'Fundamental rights' | 'Fundamental rights' |
| For the government, Security minister Lord West said: "We face an unprecedented terrorist threat... There's a clear and present danger to our population." | |
| He added: "The terrorists we face are more ruthless than those we faced in the past." | He added: "The terrorists we face are more ruthless than those we faced in the past." |
| But shadow security minister Dame Neville-Jones said of the 42-days plan: "It represents yet another attack, on the part of the government, without justification, on fundamental democratic rights and freedoms that have underpinned our society for centuries." | But shadow security minister Dame Neville-Jones said of the 42-days plan: "It represents yet another attack, on the part of the government, without justification, on fundamental democratic rights and freedoms that have underpinned our society for centuries." |
| This draconian proposal will be defeated in the House of Lords Lord ThomasLiberal Democrats | This draconian proposal will be defeated in the House of Lords Lord ThomasLiberal Democrats |
| The Conservatives and Lib Dems say they will try to defeat the 42-day measure when the bill reaches its detailed parliamentary stages, possibly after the long summer recess. | The Conservatives and Lib Dems say they will try to defeat the 42-day measure when the bill reaches its detailed parliamentary stages, possibly after the long summer recess. |
| Lord Goldsmith, who was the legal adviser to Tony Blair's government after the terror attacks on London and in the run-up to the Iraq invasion, is due to speak in the debate and has made no secret of his opposition to the plans. | Lord Goldsmith, who was the legal adviser to Tony Blair's government after the terror attacks on London and in the run-up to the Iraq invasion, is due to speak in the debate and has made no secret of his opposition to the plans. |
| He has said "the case has not been made" to extend the limit on holding terror suspects, and he could not support it. | He has said "the case has not been made" to extend the limit on holding terror suspects, and he could not support it. |
| He also argued that extending the pre-charge limit to 42 days would send a message to Muslims "that we are down on them". | He also argued that extending the pre-charge limit to 42 days would send a message to Muslims "that we are down on them". |
| 'Discredited policy' | 'Discredited policy' |
| Lord Thomas, who speaks on attorney general issues for the Lib Dems, said: "Holding someone without charge for 42 days adds nothing of value to the investigation, prosecution or conviction of terrorists. | Lord Thomas, who speaks on attorney general issues for the Lib Dems, said: "Holding someone without charge for 42 days adds nothing of value to the investigation, prosecution or conviction of terrorists. |
| "The government's proposals do not have serious support amongst senior police officers, ex-government law officers, the director of public prosecutions, the legal profession or, indeed, anyone who knows anything about the criminal justice process. | "The government's proposals do not have serious support amongst senior police officers, ex-government law officers, the director of public prosecutions, the legal profession or, indeed, anyone who knows anything about the criminal justice process. |
| "Gordon Brown's clinging to the shreds of his discredited policy in the hope that he can pass off this ineffective and unprincipled stance as somehow 'tough' on terror. | "Gordon Brown's clinging to the shreds of his discredited policy in the hope that he can pass off this ineffective and unprincipled stance as somehow 'tough' on terror. |
| "This draconian proposal will be defeated in the House of Lords." | "This draconian proposal will be defeated in the House of Lords." |
| Attempts to extend the terror detention limit to 90 days in 2005 ended in Mr Blair's first Commons defeat as prime minister. | Attempts to extend the terror detention limit to 90 days in 2005 ended in Mr Blair's first Commons defeat as prime minister. |