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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/aug/04/is-it-time-to-abandon-the-dream-of-owning-a-home-live
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| Is it time to abandon the dream of owning a home? – live | Is it time to abandon the dream of owning a home? – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.17pm BST | |
| 13:17 | |
| James Walsh | |
| A good point raised by a commenter below the line, about how the uncertainty of renting can permeate all aspects of your life. Having rented around various parts of London in the past decade, none of the places felt likely to be a long-term home. And this has profound implications for society. How do you build a community if a growing number of people feel they are one rent hike or job setback from having to move? | |
| It's not just financial security which is prevented by the current system, it's many of the aspects of community and social life which were taken for granted by my parents' generation. Having some kind of community with the same doctor, shopkeepers etc., getting to know the neighbours, getting involved in local politics, all of these are impossible when you are changing area every year... | |
| We're currently in the situation where, because our landlady hasn't put the rent up for a couple of years (and the flat was dirt cheap to start with), if she did decide to kick us out we'd have to move miles away. The problem is, we've got a kid who's rapidly approaching school age, so not sure whether to preempt this possibility by moving now... | |
| Or maybe we'll just leave the country, you can live better on benefits in some parts of Europe than you can with an average job in London... | |
| 1.11pm BST | |
| 13:11 | |
| We need better renting conditions now - not later | |
| Abi Wilkinson | |
| The debate about whether people “should” have the right to own their own home misses the point. When more than a third of households live in rented accommodation, we need laws that protect our rights. As things are, 6-12 month tenancy agreements are the norm and renters have little security. We’re at the mercy of unscrupulous landlords who might demand an unaffordable rent hike or ask us to leave at only a couple of months notice. In cities such as London, where demand far outstrips supply, the situation is particularly bleak. | |
| More can and should be done to help people get on the property ladder, but in the meantime we absolutely need to make renting a less dismal prospect. In Germany, leases are normally granted for an unlimited period of time and landlords can only evict for specific reasons. If the tenant causes significant damage to the interior of the property, for example, or if they want to move into the home themselves. | |
| Personally, I know I’d be much less desperate to own my own home if I was able to feel secure and settled in a rental flat. | |
| 12.52pm BST | |
| 12:52 | |
| James Walsh | |
| A view from Caroline, in Manchester, on the longterm implications of the growing generation of people unable to buy a home. | |
| It’s not just the case of improving houses and rentals for renters. What is going to happen when these renters retire? I’d be fairly happy to rent - I have no spouse or dependents so I’m not particularly arsed about leaving a legacy behind. What I would be concerned about is that despite paying in to a pension since I was 25, and planning to work until I’m 67, I have absolutely no confidence that my pension will be enough to live on, especially if I have to pay rent on a property. At least if I’m owning a house/flat/whatever, I have some control over my outgoings. If we aren’t careful we will end up with a generation of pensioners who don’t have enough money to buy or rent somewhere to live. | |
| 12.49pm BST | |
| 12:49 | |
| Without radical changes, we will end up going back in time | |
| Harry Leslie Smith | |
| I can trace my family history back to almost 400 years ago and not one of my ancestors before me owned a house. It’s not that they lacked my ambition to want more than a British working class life offered them. No, it was because they lived under economic systems that benefited the well to do on the sweat of their labour. They never had a chance to live in either their property or humane rental property because society viewed them as little more than serfs. I, however was born at time of social transition where my childhood was spent in the misery of poverty and substandard housing. But my middle age was lived in the comfort and security of the welfare state created at the end of the second world war. Today, my grand children’s generation is seeing not only the end of the welfare state which afforded all citizens the right to prosper according to their capabilities but also live in dignity through home ownership or through affordable government built rental housing. It’s clear to me that Theresa’s May’s government won’t be able to fix our current housing crisis until we fix our crisis of flat wages to workers and low taxes to corporations. Without those radical changes most working people of Britain today will soon begin to resemble the working people of my youth before the rise of democratic social and economic justice. | |
| 12.36pm BST | 12.36pm BST |
| 12:36 | 12:36 |
| 'I am afraid that the dream of owning a home has been abandoned' | 'I am afraid that the dream of owning a home has been abandoned' |
| David Lammy | David Lammy |
| In London we have reached a crisis point where home ownership is totally out of the reach of young people who do not have financial backing from their parents to the tune of tens or even hundreds of thousands. So yes, the ship has sailed and for all but the very privileged few I am afraid that the dream of owning a home has been abandoned unless the government actually gets real and builds properly affordable homes. | In London we have reached a crisis point where home ownership is totally out of the reach of young people who do not have financial backing from their parents to the tune of tens or even hundreds of thousands. So yes, the ship has sailed and for all but the very privileged few I am afraid that the dream of owning a home has been abandoned unless the government actually gets real and builds properly affordable homes. |
| When the public criticise MP’s and the ‘Westminster Bubble’ for being out of touch, they do so because they feel that government policy doesn’t reflect the reality of their lives. Nowhere is this more the case than the government’s definition of affordability as a starter home flat, specifically aimed at a first time buyer, that costs almost half a million pounds. To afford one of these “affordable homes”, you will actually need an income of £77,000 and a deposit of almost £100,000. | When the public criticise MP’s and the ‘Westminster Bubble’ for being out of touch, they do so because they feel that government policy doesn’t reflect the reality of their lives. Nowhere is this more the case than the government’s definition of affordability as a starter home flat, specifically aimed at a first time buyer, that costs almost half a million pounds. To afford one of these “affordable homes”, you will actually need an income of £77,000 and a deposit of almost £100,000. |
| The government need to face up to the fact that their definition of affordability means absolutely nothing of the sort to ordinary people. That this government can seriously tell us that the housing crisis will be tackled by building “affordable” homes for sale at this price is nothing short of farcical. | The government need to face up to the fact that their definition of affordability means absolutely nothing of the sort to ordinary people. That this government can seriously tell us that the housing crisis will be tackled by building “affordable” homes for sale at this price is nothing short of farcical. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.40pm BST | at 12.40pm BST |
| 12.34pm BST | 12.34pm BST |
| 12:34 | 12:34 |
| This isn’t about owning bricks, it’s wanting choice we rightly deserve | This isn’t about owning bricks, it’s wanting choice we rightly deserve |
| Jessica Brown | Jessica Brown |
| This debate is about the importance of choice, and making sure we don’t blame each other for the mess we’re in. | This debate is about the importance of choice, and making sure we don’t blame each other for the mess we’re in. |
| In an article for the Independent this week, Sean O’Grady said young people had a “hysterical reaction” to news that home-ownership has reached a 30-year low. | In an article for the Independent this week, Sean O’Grady said young people had a “hysterical reaction” to news that home-ownership has reached a 30-year low. |
| Younger people face a deluge of challenges he was lucky enough to avoid. He admits his generation “was able to buy a flat relatively cheaply,” yet he tells young people to “get real”. | Younger people face a deluge of challenges he was lucky enough to avoid. He admits his generation “was able to buy a flat relatively cheaply,” yet he tells young people to “get real”. |
| Speaking as someone who’s lived in an overpriced, rat-infested flat, O’Grady is in no place to tell us to not feel cheated out of an option to better our lives. | Speaking as someone who’s lived in an overpriced, rat-infested flat, O’Grady is in no place to tell us to not feel cheated out of an option to better our lives. |
| House prices too high? Use the bank of Mum and Dad or adjust your lifestyle to match, move somewhere cheaper, O’Grady suggests. Never mind where your job is, or how expensive commuting to it is. | House prices too high? Use the bank of Mum and Dad or adjust your lifestyle to match, move somewhere cheaper, O’Grady suggests. Never mind where your job is, or how expensive commuting to it is. |
| I’ve never been bothered about owning a home, but after seeing how out-of-touch Tory rule has unnecessarily and unjustly limited my options, I’m angry. | I’ve never been bothered about owning a home, but after seeing how out-of-touch Tory rule has unnecessarily and unjustly limited my options, I’m angry. |
| My generation isn’t self-entitled. We want to work hard to afford our own home - but we can’t. | My generation isn’t self-entitled. We want to work hard to afford our own home - but we can’t. |
| This shouldn’t be a generational fight. Placing blame on each other for society’s ills is just what the government wants. This is how we ended up in this Brexit mess. This isn’t about owning bricks, it’s wanting choice we rightly deserve, that’s been taken away because of political games. | This shouldn’t be a generational fight. Placing blame on each other for society’s ills is just what the government wants. This is how we ended up in this Brexit mess. This isn’t about owning bricks, it’s wanting choice we rightly deserve, that’s been taken away because of political games. |
| 12.29pm BST | 12.29pm BST |
| 12:29 | 12:29 |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| We’ve been hearing from readers via our form on the various ways that renting could be improved. | We’ve been hearing from readers via our form on the various ways that renting could be improved. |
| Sarah, 24, from Manchester, would consider home ownership - but only because renting is so insecure. | Sarah, 24, from Manchester, would consider home ownership - but only because renting is so insecure. |
| We need more regulation, longer term contracts, more social housing, stop agencies charging extortionate fees to tenants - all the obvious stuff. It’s been said before but you only have to look at places like Germany and France to see that long-term renting doesn’t have to be terrible. It just is terrible here because of this obsession with home ownership. Politicians only want to talk about how we need to be building more houses so more people can own homes, while ignoring the fact that the best and easiest way to improve people’s living conditions right now would be to focus on making renting better. | We need more regulation, longer term contracts, more social housing, stop agencies charging extortionate fees to tenants - all the obvious stuff. It’s been said before but you only have to look at places like Germany and France to see that long-term renting doesn’t have to be terrible. It just is terrible here because of this obsession with home ownership. Politicians only want to talk about how we need to be building more houses so more people can own homes, while ignoring the fact that the best and easiest way to improve people’s living conditions right now would be to focus on making renting better. |
| Laura, 31, from Essex, would like to own her own home, but is renting at the moment. | Laura, 31, from Essex, would like to own her own home, but is renting at the moment. |
| Property shouldn’t be an investment, it’s a home. With rent control and more rights, I would feel comfortable putting in central heating, nice bathroom and double glazing. Without it? Forget it. I did once, about a year ago, nearly manage to buy a flat. I scraped the deposit after 10 years saving, I had the income, I made the offer - accepted. And then someone with a property portfolio offered cash and got it off me. | Property shouldn’t be an investment, it’s a home. With rent control and more rights, I would feel comfortable putting in central heating, nice bathroom and double glazing. Without it? Forget it. I did once, about a year ago, nearly manage to buy a flat. I scraped the deposit after 10 years saving, I had the income, I made the offer - accepted. And then someone with a property portfolio offered cash and got it off me. |
| 12.24pm BST | 12.24pm BST |
| 12:24 | 12:24 |
| Our readers on how renting could be improved | Our readers on how renting could be improved |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Some very interesting thoughts coming in via our form from readers include the below: | Some very interesting thoughts coming in via our form from readers include the below: |
| James, 29, London | James, 29, London |
| Long-term tenancies for private renters need to become an option to stop rents rising year on year just because landlords know the demand will always be there. | Long-term tenancies for private renters need to become an option to stop rents rising year on year just because landlords know the demand will always be there. |
| Fees charged by letting agencies need to be controlled. I paid £100 to provide a reference; my flatmate who moved in a year later paid £150. All that was involved was a third party making a 10 second call to my line manager. We are also charged £300 if we want to leave during the tenancy and only one person is allowed to do this. I don’t know what would happen if more than one tenant suddenly had to leave. | Fees charged by letting agencies need to be controlled. I paid £100 to provide a reference; my flatmate who moved in a year later paid £150. All that was involved was a third party making a 10 second call to my line manager. We are also charged £300 if we want to leave during the tenancy and only one person is allowed to do this. I don’t know what would happen if more than one tenant suddenly had to leave. |
| Sam, 28, Nottingham | Sam, 28, Nottingham |
| In a word – security. Signing up for 6-month or 12-month tenancies means you’re never far from the thought of having to move. Longer-term tenancy agreements (with break clauses for both sides) should absolutely be the norm, with rent increases restricted to a certain percentage during the period of the tenancy. There should also be a longer notice period of eviction - 2 months is not a long enough time to find a new suitable home, raise the necessary rental deposit & first month’s rent and arrange for moving, particularly if you have a family and need to change schools etc. | In a word – security. Signing up for 6-month or 12-month tenancies means you’re never far from the thought of having to move. Longer-term tenancy agreements (with break clauses for both sides) should absolutely be the norm, with rent increases restricted to a certain percentage during the period of the tenancy. There should also be a longer notice period of eviction - 2 months is not a long enough time to find a new suitable home, raise the necessary rental deposit & first month’s rent and arrange for moving, particularly if you have a family and need to change schools etc. |
| Nathan, 21, Leeds | Nathan, 21, Leeds |
| The biggest barriers I encountered [in terms of renting] were extortionate rents (easily 50% or more of my monthly income), ridiculous admin fees for the most basic of tasks I could have done myself – some demand £250 on top of a deposit and first months rent, how is that affordable on a low income like mine? Finally, unscrupulous landlords who are in it to screw as much money out of renters as possible. Sub par and dangerous properties for well above par prices, it isn’t hard to see how this has to change. The key issue for the vast majority of renters is affordability coupled with disgracefully low pay. An increase in housing stock and outlawing admin fees entirely would go some way to improving things in my experience. | The biggest barriers I encountered [in terms of renting] were extortionate rents (easily 50% or more of my monthly income), ridiculous admin fees for the most basic of tasks I could have done myself – some demand £250 on top of a deposit and first months rent, how is that affordable on a low income like mine? Finally, unscrupulous landlords who are in it to screw as much money out of renters as possible. Sub par and dangerous properties for well above par prices, it isn’t hard to see how this has to change. The key issue for the vast majority of renters is affordability coupled with disgracefully low pay. An increase in housing stock and outlawing admin fees entirely would go some way to improving things in my experience. |
| 12.12pm BST | 12.12pm BST |
| 12:12 | 12:12 |
| Landlords must give renters a secure home to meet their basic human needs | Landlords must give renters a secure home to meet their basic human needs |
| Dan Wilson Craw is policy manager for the campaign group Generation Rent. | Dan Wilson Craw is policy manager for the campaign group Generation Rent. |
| The housing market is waging a war of attrition on the dream of owning a home. With every increase in prices, renters recalculate the age they’ll be able to buy their own home, and with every recalculation a few more of them give up entirely, resigned to a lifetime of renting. | The housing market is waging a war of attrition on the dream of owning a home. With every increase in prices, renters recalculate the age they’ll be able to buy their own home, and with every recalculation a few more of them give up entirely, resigned to a lifetime of renting. |
| This realism does nothing to alter the fact that people prefer home ownership – it simply means a widening gap between aspiration and expectation, an indication of the current government’s abject failure on house-building. | This realism does nothing to alter the fact that people prefer home ownership – it simply means a widening gap between aspiration and expectation, an indication of the current government’s abject failure on house-building. |
| But if we examine that aspiration more closely, it starts looking more like desperation. The most important thing people want in a home is a space that is theirs, which they can’t be thrown out of for no good reason. That is something that today’s private rented sector fundamentally cannot offer. | But if we examine that aspiration more closely, it starts looking more like desperation. The most important thing people want in a home is a space that is theirs, which they can’t be thrown out of for no good reason. That is something that today’s private rented sector fundamentally cannot offer. |
| If private landlords were treated like businesses instead of hobbyists, and required to give their customers a home with security of tenure and stable rents, then suddenly renters would have a big chunk of their basic human needs met. The desperation to own would collapse, and the preference for home ownership would fall into line with expectations. | If private landlords were treated like businesses instead of hobbyists, and required to give their customers a home with security of tenure and stable rents, then suddenly renters would have a big chunk of their basic human needs met. The desperation to own would collapse, and the preference for home ownership would fall into line with expectations. |
| To save the dream of home ownership, housing minister Gavin Barwell will have to build a lot of homes to plug the shortage, but he can make his job a whole lot easier by reforming the rental market. | To save the dream of home ownership, housing minister Gavin Barwell will have to build a lot of homes to plug the shortage, but he can make his job a whole lot easier by reforming the rental market. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.18pm BST | at 12.18pm BST |
| 11.58am BST | 11.58am BST |
| 11:58 | 11:58 |
| Is it time to abandon dream of owning a home? | Is it time to abandon dream of owning a home? |
| Penny Anderson | Penny Anderson |
| Sadly, the answer is yes: it is time to abandon all hope of owning your own home. Not because life would not be greatly enhanced if you could (and you’d be liberated from the relief of random escalating rent rises). The dream is over because it is impossible for most people not from a privileged background to afford it. It is over for those too old to get a mortgage and dead for anyone without a massive deposit. The fantasy of owning a home has vanished for those enduring precarious freelancing, long-term chronic illness or disability, self-employment, low pay and zero-hours contracts. Why not then accept the dream is dead, buried and rotting? Never owning a home shouldn’t matter, except renting is horrible. Remedy the end of the dream by building masses of well-designed houses suitable for a variety of tenants including families and older people, ideally social housing. Then improve renting’s inherent destabilising insecurity: assume tenancies last for decades (or even life) with proper rent controls enforced by resurrecting rent tribunals. End revenge evictions. Rogue landlords? They forfeit the property. Perhaps then the death of our homing owning fantasy won’t hurt quite so much. | Sadly, the answer is yes: it is time to abandon all hope of owning your own home. Not because life would not be greatly enhanced if you could (and you’d be liberated from the relief of random escalating rent rises). The dream is over because it is impossible for most people not from a privileged background to afford it. It is over for those too old to get a mortgage and dead for anyone without a massive deposit. The fantasy of owning a home has vanished for those enduring precarious freelancing, long-term chronic illness or disability, self-employment, low pay and zero-hours contracts. Why not then accept the dream is dead, buried and rotting? Never owning a home shouldn’t matter, except renting is horrible. Remedy the end of the dream by building masses of well-designed houses suitable for a variety of tenants including families and older people, ideally social housing. Then improve renting’s inherent destabilising insecurity: assume tenancies last for decades (or even life) with proper rent controls enforced by resurrecting rent tribunals. End revenge evictions. Rogue landlords? They forfeit the property. Perhaps then the death of our homing owning fantasy won’t hurt quite so much. |
| 10.42am BST | 10.42am BST |
| 10:42 | 10:42 |
| Welcome to our debate | Welcome to our debate |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Will I ever be able to afford my own home? It’s a question that plagues a generation of young people, and now evidence shows how few people are getting on the property ladder: home ownership in England has fallen to its lowest level in 30 years. | Will I ever be able to afford my own home? It’s a question that plagues a generation of young people, and now evidence shows how few people are getting on the property ladder: home ownership in England has fallen to its lowest level in 30 years. |
| The reasons behind our inability to own a home are clear (there is a huge gap between earnings and property prices), but what can be done about it is less certain. | The reasons behind our inability to own a home are clear (there is a huge gap between earnings and property prices), but what can be done about it is less certain. |
| What we do know is that it’s now not just a problem in London – according to a new report by the Resolution Foundation thinktank, Greater Manchester is also seeing as big a slump in ownership since its peak in the early 2000s. Other areas are also seeing sharp drops. | What we do know is that it’s now not just a problem in London – according to a new report by the Resolution Foundation thinktank, Greater Manchester is also seeing as big a slump in ownership since its peak in the early 2000s. Other areas are also seeing sharp drops. |
| The Resolution Foundation said home ownership across England reached a peak in April 2003 (when 71% of households owned their home) either outright or with a mortgage, but by February this year the figure had fallen to 64%. | The Resolution Foundation said home ownership across England reached a peak in April 2003 (when 71% of households owned their home) either outright or with a mortgage, but by February this year the figure had fallen to 64%. |
| So, what can be done? This week Jonn Elledge, editor of the New Statesman’s cities site, argued that we’ve been obsessed with house buying since the days of Margaret Thatcher, but those days are long gone. He says, instead, we should focus on improving the option of renting (making tenancies were longer and tenants’ rights stronger) so it’s more appealing. | So, what can be done? This week Jonn Elledge, editor of the New Statesman’s cities site, argued that we’ve been obsessed with house buying since the days of Margaret Thatcher, but those days are long gone. He says, instead, we should focus on improving the option of renting (making tenancies were longer and tenants’ rights stronger) so it’s more appealing. |
| However, some people writing beneath the piece disagreed. One commenter said: “A person should own their home and have the right to do pretty much whatever they want with it, which doesn’t happen when renting and someone else owns and can make rules and demand payment every month in exchange for a roof over one’s head. That needs to be a basic right, not even something to discuss.” | However, some people writing beneath the piece disagreed. One commenter said: “A person should own their home and have the right to do pretty much whatever they want with it, which doesn’t happen when renting and someone else owns and can make rules and demand payment every month in exchange for a roof over one’s head. That needs to be a basic right, not even something to discuss.” |
| So what do you think? Should we offer a variety of tenure options instead of obsessing over home ownership or is this an idea people should not give up on? | So what do you think? Should we offer a variety of tenure options instead of obsessing over home ownership or is this an idea people should not give up on? |
| Join us from 12pm-2pm today to debate the future of housing. You can also share your views in the form below. | Join us from 12pm-2pm today to debate the future of housing. You can also share your views in the form below. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.19am BST | at 11.19am BST |