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| EU referendum: Michael Gove on BBC's Question Time EU Special - as it happened | |
| (about 3 hours later) | |
| 9.10pm BST | 9.10pm BST |
| 21:10 | 21:10 |
| Gove on Question Time - Summary | Gove on Question Time - Summary |
| No, because I think that what we have heard from the Remain campaign throughout this whole referendum have been dire warnings of the terrible consequences of the British people just taking control of our own destiny. | No, because I think that what we have heard from the Remain campaign throughout this whole referendum have been dire warnings of the terrible consequences of the British people just taking control of our own destiny. |
| And, the truth is, if we vote to Leave we will be in an economically stronger position. We will be able to take back some of the money that we currently give to the European Union and we can invest it in our priorities. | And, the truth is, if we vote to Leave we will be in an economically stronger position. We will be able to take back some of the money that we currently give to the European Union and we can invest it in our priorities. |
| If we leave the European Union, yes there will be bumps in the road, inevitably, but we will be in a better position to deal with them. | If we leave the European Union, yes there will be bumps in the road, inevitably, but we will be in a better position to deal with them. |
| That’s all from me for tonight. | That’s all from me for tonight. |
| Thanks for the comments. | Thanks for the comments. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.13pm BST | at 9.13pm BST |
| 8.48pm BST | 8.48pm BST |
| 20:48 | 20:48 |
| Michael Gove has subtly changed what he has been saying about his father’s business since he appeared on Sky News earlier this month. | Michael Gove has subtly changed what he has been saying about his father’s business since he appeared on Sky News earlier this month. |
| In his Sky News interview Gove implied the business went bust while his father owned it. He said: | In his Sky News interview Gove implied the business went bust while his father owned it. He said: |
| My father had a fishing business in Aberdeen destroyed by the European Union and the Common Fisheries Policy, the European Union … | My father had a fishing business in Aberdeen destroyed by the European Union and the Common Fisheries Policy, the European Union … |
| If you heard earlier, Faisal, I know what it’s like to see someone lose their job as a result of the European Union. I saw my father lose his job, I saw his business go to the wall, I saw 24 people who he employed also lose their jobs. | If you heard earlier, Faisal, I know what it’s like to see someone lose their job as a result of the European Union. I saw my father lose his job, I saw his business go to the wall, I saw 24 people who he employed also lose their jobs. |
| But Gove’s father told the Guardian he sold the business before it had to close. | But Gove’s father told the Guardian he sold the business before it had to close. |
| Tonight Gove was careful not to say the business closed while his father still owned it. He said: | Tonight Gove was careful not to say the business closed while his father still owned it. He said: |
| One of reasons I was able to go to university was because of the sacrifices my family made. One of the things I know about the European Union is that the European Union can destroy jobs. My dad ran a fish business in Aberdeen. The common fisheries policy unfortunately led to the devastation of fishing in Scotland. My dad had to close his business. As a result something that he been built up by by grandfather and maintained by my dad disappeared. So my dad suffered ... | One of reasons I was able to go to university was because of the sacrifices my family made. One of the things I know about the European Union is that the European Union can destroy jobs. My dad ran a fish business in Aberdeen. The common fisheries policy unfortunately led to the devastation of fishing in Scotland. My dad had to close his business. As a result something that he been built up by by grandfather and maintained by my dad disappeared. So my dad suffered ... |
| My dad has been clear, he was clear to the BBC on Sunday night, he was clear to me when I was a boy, that the business that he invested so much care and time in had to close as a result of the common fisheries policy. | My dad has been clear, he was clear to the BBC on Sunday night, he was clear to me when I was a boy, that the business that he invested so much care and time in had to close as a result of the common fisheries policy. |
| 8.23pm BST | 8.23pm BST |
| 20:23 | 20:23 |
| Transcript of the Guardian's conversation with Michael Gove's father | Transcript of the Guardian's conversation with Michael Gove's father |
| Severin Carrell | Severin Carrell |
| This is a full transcript of the interview the Guardian had by telephone with Ernest Gove, Michael Gove’s father, on the morning Tuesday 14 June. It has been slightly edited to remove verbal tics and some slight repetition. | This is a full transcript of the interview the Guardian had by telephone with Ernest Gove, Michael Gove’s father, on the morning Tuesday 14 June. It has been slightly edited to remove verbal tics and some slight repetition. |
| Ernest Gove: “Hello?” | Ernest Gove: “Hello?” |
| Severin Carrell: Oh, hello, is that Earnest Gove? | Severin Carrell: Oh, hello, is that Earnest Gove? |
| EG: “Yeah, it is.” | EG: “Yeah, it is.” |
| SC: Hi. My name is Severin Carrell, I’m the Guardian newspaper’s Scotland editor. I’m just phoning to see whether you’d be able to give me some more information about what happened to your family business in the early ‘80s. Just following up on the interviews your son Michael has been giving and the speeches he has made about the CFP [Common Fisheries Policy]. | SC: Hi. My name is Severin Carrell, I’m the Guardian newspaper’s Scotland editor. I’m just phoning to see whether you’d be able to give me some more information about what happened to your family business in the early ‘80s. Just following up on the interviews your son Michael has been giving and the speeches he has made about the CFP [Common Fisheries Policy]. |
| EG: “There’s nothing really to go back about anyway because it just was, when Europe went into fishing, the industry more or less collapsed down and I just packed in and got a job with another firm, you know. That was all that was happening. | EG: “There’s nothing really to go back about anyway because it just was, when Europe went into fishing, the industry more or less collapsed down and I just packed in and got a job with another firm, you know. That was all that was happening. |
| “That was all that was happening. It wasn’t any hardship or things like that, or what you call it: I just decided to call it a day and just sold up my business and went on to work with someone else, you know.” | “That was all that was happening. It wasn’t any hardship or things like that, or what you call it: I just decided to call it a day and just sold up my business and went on to work with someone else, you know.” |
| SC: Right. So there wasn’t any hardship? | SC: Right. So there wasn’t any hardship? |
| EG: “It wasn’t because of hardship but I couldn’t see any future in it, that type of thing, the business that I had, so I just said I wasn’t going to go into all the trouble of going hardship, and things like that. I just decided to sell up and get a job with someone else, you know. That was all.” | EG: “It wasn’t because of hardship but I couldn’t see any future in it, that type of thing, the business that I had, so I just said I wasn’t going to go into all the trouble of going hardship, and things like that. I just decided to sell up and get a job with someone else, you know. That was all.” |
| SC: Okay. | SC: Okay. |
| EG: “And that’s all it was, like.” | EG: “And that’s all it was, like.” |
| SC: The reason I’m interested is it’s just that I have covered the fishing industry quite a bit in my work and I was a bit puzzled about whether, how the CFP itself would’ve been the sole cause of problems in Aberdeen because I know from other people in the industry that the biggest issues in the early, mid 1980s were to do with the 200 mile nautical limit, the cod wars; then there was the competition in Aberdeen harbour with North Sea oil and gas, and there was the dockworkers strike, all of that happening making life in Aberdeen much more difficult. | SC: The reason I’m interested is it’s just that I have covered the fishing industry quite a bit in my work and I was a bit puzzled about whether, how the CFP itself would’ve been the sole cause of problems in Aberdeen because I know from other people in the industry that the biggest issues in the early, mid 1980s were to do with the 200 mile nautical limit, the cod wars; then there was the competition in Aberdeen harbour with North Sea oil and gas, and there was the dockworkers strike, all of that happening making life in Aberdeen much more difficult. |
| EG: “You had all that going on. So, to be quite honest, I just decided to sell up really and then go ahead and try and make a good living out of it, I can get a job with someone I could be more or less employed and know I was going to be employed. | EG: “You had all that going on. So, to be quite honest, I just decided to sell up really and then go ahead and try and make a good living out of it, I can get a job with someone I could be more or less employed and know I was going to be employed. |
| “But as I say, yes oil and everything else came along and things like that. I mean, as you understand, that is just what industry does. It goes on and on and on and you go from one to another and to another. As regards my own business, I just decided, as I said, that things weren’t going to work well with me, and I decided to pack it in and that’s all.” | “But as I say, yes oil and everything else came along and things like that. I mean, as you understand, that is just what industry does. It goes on and on and on and you go from one to another and to another. As regards my own business, I just decided, as I said, that things weren’t going to work well with me, and I decided to pack it in and that’s all.” |
| SC: Right. OK. When was that? | SC: Right. OK. When was that? |
| “I couldn’t tell you the dates. It’s eh … I’m getting on for 80 now. So all these type of things is not staying in my head, you know.” | “I couldn’t tell you the dates. It’s eh … I’m getting on for 80 now. So all these type of things is not staying in my head, you know.” |
| SC: OK. But would it have been around 1983, ’84, ’85, that kind of time? | SC: OK. But would it have been around 1983, ’84, ’85, that kind of time? |
| EG: “I couldn’t really say because I can’t remember to be honest. But that’s all that I can tell you.” | EG: “I couldn’t really say because I can’t remember to be honest. But that’s all that I can tell you.” |
| SC: My final question Mr Gove, if you don’t mind. Were you aware that Michael had been saying that the CFP had destroyed your business? And it was solely to blame for the business folding? | SC: My final question Mr Gove, if you don’t mind. Were you aware that Michael had been saying that the CFP had destroyed your business? And it was solely to blame for the business folding? |
| “Yeah but I’m not saying anything because I’m not going against my son and I’m not going … he’s got his own policies, his own mind, and reasons, and I’m not going to give out any information at all to turn round and say one way or another. No, no, I’m not going to start fighting over [heads](?). | “Yeah but I’m not saying anything because I’m not going against my son and I’m not going … he’s got his own policies, his own mind, and reasons, and I’m not going to give out any information at all to turn round and say one way or another. No, no, I’m not going to start fighting over [heads](?). |
| “As far as I’m concerned, I decided it wasn’t going to be my way of living, the way things was going, and I decided to change it. That was all.” | “As far as I’m concerned, I decided it wasn’t going to be my way of living, the way things was going, and I decided to change it. That was all.” |
| SC: Alright | SC: Alright |
| EG: “Okay?” | EG: “Okay?” |
| SC: Thanks very much, I’m grateful. | SC: Thanks very much, I’m grateful. |
| EG: “Okay? Right.” | EG: “Okay? Right.” |
| SC: Bye now, bye bye. | SC: Bye now, bye bye. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.31pm BST | at 8.31pm BST |
| 8.01pm BST | 8.01pm BST |
| 20:01 | 20:01 |
| Gove on the Guardian | Gove on the Guardian |
| Here is the key quote from Michael Gove about the Guardian’s story about his father contradicting claims made by Gove himself about the family’s fish processing firm in Aberdeen being destroyed by the European Union’s fisheries policies. Gove told Question Time: | Here is the key quote from Michael Gove about the Guardian’s story about his father contradicting claims made by Gove himself about the family’s fish processing firm in Aberdeen being destroyed by the European Union’s fisheries policies. Gove told Question Time: |
| My dad was rung up by a reporter from the Guardian who tried to put words into his mouth but my dad has been clear, he was clear to the BBC on Sunday night, he was clear to me when I was a boy, that the business that he invested so much care and time in had to close as a result of the common fisheries policy. | My dad was rung up by a reporter from the Guardian who tried to put words into his mouth but my dad has been clear, he was clear to the BBC on Sunday night, he was clear to me when I was a boy, that the business that he invested so much care and time in had to close as a result of the common fisheries policy. |
| I remember when my dad ran his business. Two of his employees were lads who were in a care home. They did not have parents. My dad took them in, gave them a job and allowed them to work in his business and to sleep there in a spare room that he made for them. That business closed. Those boys lost their home as a result of what happened. I know what my dad went through when I was a schoolboy and I don’t think that the Guardian or anyone else should belittle his suffering or try to get a 79-year-old man to serve their agenda instead of agreeing and being proud of what his son does. | I remember when my dad ran his business. Two of his employees were lads who were in a care home. They did not have parents. My dad took them in, gave them a job and allowed them to work in his business and to sleep there in a spare room that he made for them. That business closed. Those boys lost their home as a result of what happened. I know what my dad went through when I was a schoolboy and I don’t think that the Guardian or anyone else should belittle his suffering or try to get a 79-year-old man to serve their agenda instead of agreeing and being proud of what his son does. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.13pm BST | at 8.13pm BST |
| 7.51pm BST | 7.51pm BST |
| 19:51 | 19:51 |
| Gove on Question Time - Snap verdict | Gove on Question Time - Snap verdict |
| Gove on Question Time - Snap verdict: Michael Gove’s appearance on Sky News’s EU referendum special two weeks ago was generally viewed as a success. Personally I felt that his failure to answer key economic questions was a fatal handicap, but generally commentators felt he came across as measured, likeable and persuasive. | Gove on Question Time - Snap verdict: Michael Gove’s appearance on Sky News’s EU referendum special two weeks ago was generally viewed as a success. Personally I felt that his failure to answer key economic questions was a fatal handicap, but generally commentators felt he came across as measured, likeable and persuasive. |
| Tonight did not go quite so smoothly. It did not go badly either, but Gove sounded just a little more edgy and thin-skinned, and at times some of his answers sounded glib. Question Time with David Dimbleby is in a league of its own when it comes to getting members of a studio audience to interrogate politicians in a forensic way, and not just a shouty way, and Gove had several exchanges with people where his answers clearly fell short (eg the woman with the translation business). It was also interesting to note that immigration, which is normally an easy subject for leave, was quite tricky for him tonight, with Dimbleby highlighting the government’s failure to use its powers to curb non-EU migration and a Spanish woman trying to make Gove ashamed of his stance. | Tonight did not go quite so smoothly. It did not go badly either, but Gove sounded just a little more edgy and thin-skinned, and at times some of his answers sounded glib. Question Time with David Dimbleby is in a league of its own when it comes to getting members of a studio audience to interrogate politicians in a forensic way, and not just a shouty way, and Gove had several exchanges with people where his answers clearly fell short (eg the woman with the translation business). It was also interesting to note that immigration, which is normally an easy subject for leave, was quite tricky for him tonight, with Dimbleby highlighting the government’s failure to use its powers to curb non-EU migration and a Spanish woman trying to make Gove ashamed of his stance. |
| The highlight, though, was Gove’s attack on the Guardian. All of us can understand the desire to protect one’s parents and no doubt many people watching will sympathise with what he said. We will be publishing more on this soon. But as far as I’m aware at no point has Gove, or anyone else, challenged the accuracy of a single word attributed to Gove’s father in Severin Carrell’s story. I’ve worked with Severin on and off for about 20 years and he is one of the most scrupulous and accurate reporters I know. Obviously you would expect me to say that. You’ll have to read his story and Gove’s remarks (which I will post shortly) and decide for yourself who you trust. | The highlight, though, was Gove’s attack on the Guardian. All of us can understand the desire to protect one’s parents and no doubt many people watching will sympathise with what he said. We will be publishing more on this soon. But as far as I’m aware at no point has Gove, or anyone else, challenged the accuracy of a single word attributed to Gove’s father in Severin Carrell’s story. I’ve worked with Severin on and off for about 20 years and he is one of the most scrupulous and accurate reporters I know. Obviously you would expect me to say that. You’ll have to read his story and Gove’s remarks (which I will post shortly) and decide for yourself who you trust. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.00pm BST | at 8.00pm BST |
| 7.32pm BST | 7.32pm BST |
| 19:32 | 19:32 |
| Q: Do you regret using the £350m a week figure for the amount the EU costs the UK? | Q: Do you regret using the £350m a week figure for the amount the EU costs the UK? |
| Gove says some people have criticised. He says that is the amount of money the EU controls. Some of it comes back. But the rebate has been cut in the past, and it will be cut in the future again if we stay in. | Gove says some people have criticised. He says that is the amount of money the EU controls. Some of it comes back. But the rebate has been cut in the past, and it will be cut in the future again if we stay in. |
| Q: You sound plausible, but I can’t help thinking you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing. (She is using a phrase Jeremy Corbyn used yesterday.) | Q: You sound plausible, but I can’t help thinking you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing. (She is using a phrase Jeremy Corbyn used yesterday.) |
| Gove says Britain will be stronger, freer and fairer outside the EU. | Gove says Britain will be stronger, freer and fairer outside the EU. |
| And that’s it. | And that’s it. |
| I will post a verdict and a summary soon. | I will post a verdict and a summary soon. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.45pm BST | at 7.45pm BST |
| 7.26pm BST | 7.26pm BST |
| 19:26 | 19:26 |
| Gove says he does not favour deporting anyone who is hard working. | Gove says he does not favour deporting anyone who is hard working. |
| But he says a Bank of England report showed wages were being held down by immigration. It is not right to set community against community, he says. | But he says a Bank of England report showed wages were being held down by immigration. It is not right to set community against community, he says. |
| He says he objects to the way a member of the audience is talking down people in this country. | He says he objects to the way a member of the audience is talking down people in this country. |
| 7.24pm BST | 7.24pm BST |
| 19:24 | 19:24 |
| A member of the audience complains about how immigrants like her are treated in this country. “We are not the enemy, Mr Gove,” she says. | A member of the audience complains about how immigrants like her are treated in this country. “We are not the enemy, Mr Gove,” she says. |
| Gove says he understands the woman’s point of view. He is in favour of migration, he says. He just wants to control the numbers. | Gove says he understands the woman’s point of view. He is in favour of migration, he says. He just wants to control the numbers. |
| The woman says she does not believe him. | The woman says she does not believe him. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.45pm BST | at 7.45pm BST |
| 7.21pm BST | 7.21pm BST |
| 19:21 | 19:21 |
| Gove suggests immigration would not be reduced until after 2020 if we left the EU | Gove suggests immigration would not be reduced until after 2020 if we left the EU |
| Gove says he thinks we can secure exit from the EU by 2020. | Gove says he thinks we can secure exit from the EU by 2020. |
| And we can get immigration down in the next parliament. | And we can get immigration down in the next parliament. |
| Q: But the government can control immigration from outside the EU, and those numbers are still well over 100,000. | Q: But the government can control immigration from outside the EU, and those numbers are still well over 100,000. |
| Gove says that is within our control. If we leave the EU, we cannot place any limits on migration from within the EU. | Gove says that is within our control. If we leave the EU, we cannot place any limits on migration from within the EU. |
| 7.19pm BST | 7.19pm BST |
| 19:19 | 19:19 |
| Gove says under EU law there are criminals here we cannot deport. If we leave the EU, we can have an Australian-style points system. | Gove says under EU law there are criminals here we cannot deport. If we leave the EU, we can have an Australian-style points system. |
| 7.18pm BST | 7.18pm BST |
| 19:18 | 19:18 |
| Q: Are you scaremongering when you say Turkey will join the EU? | Q: Are you scaremongering when you say Turkey will join the EU? |
| Absolutely not, says Gove. He says the Financial Times has a story today saying moves to get Turkey into the EU are being accelerated. | Absolutely not, says Gove. He says the Financial Times has a story today saying moves to get Turkey into the EU are being accelerated. |
| Q: Cameron says we have a veto on Turkey joining the EU? | Q: Cameron says we have a veto on Turkey joining the EU? |
| Gove says that is correct. But it is official government policy for Turkey to join. The government has no intention of using that veto. | Gove says that is correct. But it is official government policy for Turkey to join. The government has no intention of using that veto. |
| He says he thinks Turkey joining the EU will “’inevitably” happen in our lifetime unless we vote to leave. | He says he thinks Turkey joining the EU will “’inevitably” happen in our lifetime unless we vote to leave. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.22pm BST | at 7.22pm BST |
| 7.15pm BST | 7.15pm BST |
| 19:15 | 19:15 |
| Q: If we get a leave vote, are you confident a prime minister who campaigned for remain will deliver what the country wants? | Q: If we get a leave vote, are you confident a prime minister who campaigned for remain will deliver what the country wants? |
| Gove says the referendum is about giving instructions to the prime minister. David Cameron has promised he will abide by the decision of the people. | Gove says the referendum is about giving instructions to the prime minister. David Cameron has promised he will abide by the decision of the people. |
| Q: And what will happen to George Osborne. Some 65 Tory MPs say they will not vote for his budget. Will he have to go? | Q: And what will happen to George Osborne. Some 65 Tory MPs say they will not vote for his budget. Will he have to go? |
| Gove says the remain campaign have been “ramping up the fear, turning it up to 11”. Do you want the UK to govern itself? Or do you want it run by the EU and its five presidents, none of whom you can name? | Gove says the remain campaign have been “ramping up the fear, turning it up to 11”. Do you want the UK to govern itself? Or do you want it run by the EU and its five presidents, none of whom you can name? |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.24pm BST | at 7.24pm BST |