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EU referendum: Michael Gove on BBC's Question Time EU Special - live EU referendum: Michael Gove on BBC's Question Time EU Special - live
(35 minutes later)
7.26pm BST
19:26
Gove says he does not favour deporting anyone who is hard working.
But he says a Bank of England report showed wages were being held down by immigration. It is not right to set community against community, he says.
He says he objects to the way a member of the audience is talking down people in this country.
7.24pm BST
19:24
A member of the audience complains about how immigrants like her are treated in this country. “We are not the enemy, Mr Gove,” she says.
Gove says she understands the woman’s point of view. He is in favour of migration, he says. He just wants to control the numbers.
The woman says she does not believe him.
7.21pm BST
19:21
Gove suggests immigration would not be reduced until after 2020 if we left the EU
Gove says he thinks we can secure exit from the EU by 2020.
And we can get immigration down in the next parliament.
Q: But the government can control immigration from outside the EU, and those numbers are still well over 100,000.
Gove says that is within our control. If we leave the EU, we cannot place any limits on migration from within the EU.
7.19pm BST
19:19
Gove says under EU law there are criminals here we cannot deport. If we leave the EU, we can have an Australian-style points system.
7.18pm BST
19:18
Q: Are you scaremongering when you say Turkey will join the EU?
Absolutely not, says Gove. He says the Financial Times has a story today saying moves to get Turkey into the EU are being accelerated.
Q: Cameron says we have a veto on Turkey joining the EU?
Gove says that is correct. But it is official government policy for Turkey to join. The government has no intention of using that veto.
He says he thinks Turkey joining the EU will “’inevitably” happen in our lifetime unless we vote to leave.
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7.15pm BST
19:15
Q: If we get a leave vote, are you confident a prime minister who campaigned for remain will deliver what the country wants?
Gove says the referendum is about giving instructions to the prime minister. David Cameron has promised he will abide by the decision of the people.
Q: And what will happen to George Osborne. Some 65 Tory MPs say they will not vote for his budget. Will he have to go?
Gove says the remain campaign have been “ramping up the fear, turning it up to 11”. Do you want the UK to govern itself? Or do you want it run by the EU and its five presidents, none of whom you can name?
Updated
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7.11pm BST
19:11
Gove attacks the Guardian for its report saying EU not to blame for his father's business going bust
Q: I study English literature, and the manipulation of words. All I’ve heard from you is manipulation.
Gove says he read English too. Vote Leave has put forward a plan today for what would happen. He says he was able to go to university because of his family’s sacrifices. He says his father lost his fishing business because of EU policies. The EU is a job-destroying machine. That is a tragedy.
Q: Today your father is quoted as saying it was not the EU that made him close his business.
Gove says his father was rung up by a Guardian journalist “who tried to put words in his mouth”. He says he remembers what happened. He says two workers lost their homes. The Guardian should not be using a 79-year-old man to suit their agenda, and it should not be belittling what he did.
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7.06pm BST
19:06
Q: I run a small business and more than 50% of my trade is with the EU. How can you guarantee that I won’t lose out?
Gove says there will be no reason to think they will impose tariffs. It will be in their interests not to impose tariffs.
Q: But I sell to them. I have a translation business. It is much more difficult to work with non-EU countries. And if we become a non-EU country, it will be harder for me.
Gove says that will only be the case if EU countries take leave of their senses. It is in the interests of both sides to keep tariffs down.
Q: But you tell us the EU does take leave of its senses. You quoted Donald Tusk.
Gove says they are trying to scare us into staying, because we pay many of the bills.
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7.03pm BST
19:03
Q: As a physicist I am terrified what will happen to British science if we succeed. What will we do when our funding dries up?
Gove says some physicists think we will be better off outside the EU. And all the EU money going to universities is our money in the first place.
He says he does not believe in the scare stories. Donald Tusk says Brexit will lead to the end of Western civilisation.
Q: But we get more money out of the EU for science than we put in.
Gove says that is not true. Overall we hand over £20bn to the EU.
Q: But for science we get more than we put in. The IOP [Institute of Physics] has said that, the Royal Society has said that.
Gove says we hand over £20bn, and get £10bn back.
7.00pm BST
19:00
Q: The risks are economic. What trading relationship will we have? You want us to lose autonomy, and lose influence over decision making. You are off your rocker if you think we are better off.
Gove says the Germans sell more cars to us than we sell to them. Germany won’t punish its car workers.
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6.57pm BST
18:57
Q: Everything in life has risks. What are the risks of leaving?
Gove says the questioner is right. But he thinks we will be better off out. Yes, there will be bumps in the road ...
Q: What will they be?
Gove says there will be risks if we leave or stay.
Q: Are you saying there are now downsides from leaving.
Gove says the UK will be in a stronger position if we leave. It won’t be milk and honey. But the British people will be liberated to deal with any risks they encounter.
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6.55pm BST
18:55
Q: If you value the NHS so much, where was your support for junior doctors?
Gove says the NHS will be stronger if we leave. It will have more money, and be under less strain.
6.54pm BST6.54pm BST
18:5418:54
Q: Why are you dismissing the views of economic experts?Q: Why are you dismissing the views of economic experts?
Gove says they were wrong about the euro and the ERM.Gove says they were wrong about the euro and the ERM.
Q: But the IFS did not support the euro.Q: But the IFS did not support the euro.
Gove says he wants the UK to take back control of its affairs.Gove says he wants the UK to take back control of its affairs.
Q: How can we trust you when you co-authored a book saying we should dismantle the NHS?Q: How can we trust you when you co-authored a book saying we should dismantle the NHS?
Gove says he supports the NHS. He says leaving would allow us to give it an extra £100m a week.Gove says he supports the NHS. He says leaving would allow us to give it an extra £100m a week.
Q: But John Major said you want to privatise it.Q: But John Major said you want to privatise it.
Gove says he cherishes it.Gove says he cherishes it.
Q: But 10 years ago you wanted to privatise it. You have changed your mind.Q: But 10 years ago you wanted to privatise it. You have changed your mind.
Gove says the book was written by a group of people. He did not write anything in it about the NHS. His commitment to the NHS is absolute.Gove says the book was written by a group of people. He did not write anything in it about the NHS. His commitment to the NHS is absolute.
He wants the money to be spent by us, on our priorities. He does not know of a higher priority to the British public.He wants the money to be spent by us, on our priorities. He does not know of a higher priority to the British public.
6.50pm BST6.50pm BST
18:5018:50
Q: If we vote to leave the EU, will you support George Osborne’s punishment budget?Q: If we vote to leave the EU, will you support George Osborne’s punishment budget?
No, says Michael Gove.No, says Michael Gove.
He says all we have heard from Remain have been dire warnings. He says all we have heard from remain have been dire warnings.
But the economy will do well, he says. Leaving would be a “win, win” for the economy. The EU has the lowest growth of any continent apart from Antarctica.But the economy will do well, he says. Leaving would be a “win, win” for the economy. The EU has the lowest growth of any continent apart from Antarctica.
Q: George Osborne was talking about IFS figures. You respect the IFS.Q: George Osborne was talking about IFS figures. You respect the IFS.
Gove says the IFS did not say there would be a £30bn hole in the budget immediately after we left. Stuart Rose, who leads the In campaign, has said nothing would change if we left, he says. Gove says the IFS did not say there would be a £30bn hole in the budget immediately after we left. Stuart Rose, who leads the in campaign, has said nothing would change if we left, he says.
Gove says “it’s a shame” the remain camp are talking this country down - with some anger in his voice. Gove says “it’s a shame” the remain camp are talking this country down – with some anger in his voice.
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at 6.57pm BST
6.46pm BST6.46pm BST
18:4618:46
Question Time EU SpecialQuestion Time EU Special
David Dimbleby is introducing the programme.David Dimbleby is introducing the programme.
They are recording from Nottingham.They are recording from Nottingham.
6.44pm BST6.44pm BST
18:4418:44
Tonight’s Question Time is going out live. Normally it records an hour or so before transmission.Tonight’s Question Time is going out live. Normally it records an hour or so before transmission.
6.42pm BST
18:42
Labour's Emma Reynolds says Vote Leave has 'dodgy claims and dishonesty at its core'
The Labour MP Emma Reynolds has put out a statement, via Britain Stronger in Europe, welcoming the fact that Michael Gove’s father has said the EU was not to blame for his business going bust - even though this is what Gove himself has claimed. She said:
I’m glad that Michael Gove’s father has made clear the EU did not destroy his fishing business.
From Boris’ bananas to Gove’s fishy tales, the Leave campaign has dodgy claims and dishonesty at its core.
If they can’t be trusted on the basic facts, how can they be trusted with the future of our country?
The truth is the only way to secure jobs, lower prices and funding for our public service is to vote remain on the 23rd June.
6.35pm BST
18:35
Michael Gove on the BBC's Question Time EU Special
The BBC’s Question Time EU Special with Michael Gove starts in 10 minutes.
Preparations are underway for our first #EURef special with Michael Gove live at 6:45pm on @BBCOne. Join us! #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/3ogjpXeFEA
6.08pm BST
18:08
Afternoon summary
But we’re not finished. At 6.45pm Michael Gove, the justice secretary and co-convenor of the Vote Leave, is on BBC 1’s Question Time EU Special. I will be covering that live.
6.03pm BST
18:03
And this is from the SNP MSP Gillian Martin on the Michael Gove story.
Michael Gove has been caught out – he should call it a day on his attempts to spin a tale about his family history.
If Mr Gove was as concerned by the plight of the Scottish fishing industry as he says, then he’d never have joined the political party that viewed it “expendable” in the first place. It’s not the EU that’s to blame for the difficulties of the fishing industry, but the indifference of the UK government who sold the industry out.
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5.59pm BST
17:59
Here is the Lib Dem MPS Tavish Scott on the Guardian’s revelations about Michael Gove’s father denying claims made by his son that the family’s fish processing firm in Aberdeen was destroyed by the European Union’s fisheries policies. Scott said:
Michael Gove’s father has just slapped him round the face with a wet fish. He spent hours this week telling anyone who would listen that the EU was to blame for the demise of his family business but now it seems there is something more than a little bit fishy about his claims.
5.54pm BST
17:54
Commons debate on the EU - Highlights
MPs have been debating a Labour motion on the economic benefits of the EU. Earlier, in response to a question BTL, I said it looked a bit dull, but reading the Press Association coverage, I see there were some good lines in it. Here are some highlights.
There is a well-founded concern that withdrawal will put jobs, investment, trade and employment at risk.
The unpredictability of the outcome of this leap in the dark has united virtually every economist and economic institution of any standing from the IMF to the OECD, the Bank of England to the Institute of Fiscal Studies, to express their concerns at the risk to the economy.
We have witnessed in the last 72 hours the reaction of the world markets to shifts in the polls pointing to a possible Brexit. £100bn has been knocked off the value of shares and the value of the pound has dropped. The Brexit campaign in four days has done more damage to capitalism than the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) in 40 years.
I’ve spent a lot of time with a lot of international trade negotiators - these are very unsentimental folk.
And the idea, it’s almost laughable simply to say it, that you can pull out of the world’s largest economic bloc and then say to these unsentimental folk - who have driven such a hard bargain with that bloc of 500m - ‘We want not just the same, we want better deals, a better set of conditions on behalf of an economy of only 60m’.
Who do the Brexit camp think these negotiators are? They’re not stupid, they’re not naive.
They will just snigger and I look in vain, I’ve scoured the internet this morning, for apparently all these freedom-loving nations who will cut these favourable deals with us as we depart, apparently, to this world of milk and honey where effortlessly people will give us concessions which they didn’t give to a bloc of 500m.
Can you find anyone? Have the Indians said ‘Yep, oh sure, we’ll give you what you want’? Have the Americans said it? Have the Canadians said it? Have the Australians said it? Has anyone said it?
Not a single country anywhere in the world has said they will give better terms of trade to the United Kingdom on its own than the European Union.
The world’s supply chain has globalised itself and I have to say to you if I’m honest, when I listen to the arguments of some of our opponents in this debate, while they frame them in terms of a hostility to the European Union, I do sometimes wonder whether what I’m hearing is a hostility to the globalisation of our economy.
The reason I will be voting to remain in is because frankly I don’t trust the Germans and the French to run Europe without us being there at that table keeping them at close heel. To my mind our job in Europe is to maintain the balance of power and that is utterly crucial. Because when we have walked away from Europe we have found ourselves having to pay for that with an enormous amount of blood and an enormous amount of treasure.
I do believe in peace and I do believe in good relations. What really troubles me however is when the majority voting system and the decisions are taken behind closed doors are so manifestly undemocratic, it is impossible to justify, and it becomes a kind of dictatorship behind closed doors.
We in this House make our decisions based upon speeches which are made in public, which are reported, the votes are there, we’re held to be accountable. This is not the case in the European Union.
Whilst I cannot say that Neil died as a result of the CFP [Common Fisheries Policy], I can say it contributed to the economic pressure he felt when deciding to fish alone.
5.31pm BST
17:31
These figures, from YouGov’s Joe Twyman, are quite telling.
Which groups + organisations do Leave supporters trust on #EURef? Generally none. Academics most trusted for Remain. pic.twitter.com/3EpFtAtsAD
Over two thirds of Leave supporters (+ quarter of Remainers) say it is wrong to rely too much on 'experts'. #EURef pic.twitter.com/PahJsgFiJc
5.26pm BST
17:26
Severin Carrell
My colleague Severin Carrell has sent me more about Michael Gove’s father denying claims made by his son that the family’s fish processing firm in Aberdeen was destroyed by the European Union’s fisheries policies. Here is some extra material left out from Severin’s story for space reasons because it was written for publication in the paper.
Other senior figures in the Scottish fishing industry said Aberdeen’s fishing businesses suffered too from competition from Peterhead, which was offering far better facilities for the fishing fleet, in the 1980s – the time when Gove gave up his company EE Gove and Sons.
That competition came at the same time as Aberdeen’s port facilities were under heavy pressure from vessels needed in the rapidly expanding North Sea oil and gas industry; industrial unrest from dock workers, and the impact of the cod wars.
John Buchan, one of the organisers of the Fishing for Leave flotilla on the Thames and a vocal supporter of Gove’s Brexit campaign, told the Guardian many larger trawler firms in Aberdeen went bankrupt because the new 200 nautical miles territorial limits closed down the Icelandic and north Norwegian fishing grounds after the cod wars. But the smaller trawlers moved to Peterhead, which is now the UK’s largest fishing port. “It all linked up,” Buchan said.
Gove Snr confirmed these were factors when he spoke to the Guardian on Tuesday morning.
“You had all that going on,” he said. “To be quite honest, I just decided to sell up and go ahead and try and make a good living, I can get a job with someone, I could be more or less employed and know I was going to be employed.
“Yes, oil and everything else came along and things like that. I mean, as you understand, that is just what industry does. It goes on and on and on and you move from one to another. As regards my own business, I just decided that things weren’t going to work well with me, I just decided to pack it in, that’s all.”
4.58pm BST
16:58
Tory revolt against Osborne grows as 65 MPs oppose post-Brexit emergency budget plan
Sky’s Beth Rigby has a list of the 65 Tory MP who are now saying they would vote against George Osborne’s hypothetical post-Brexit budget. This morning there were 57 Tory MPs on the list.
List of the 65 MPS publicly opposing Osborne & his #Brexit budget pic.twitter.com/xeS2KxqNDB
4.47pm BST
16:47
According to the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, 65 Tory MPs have now signed the letter saying they would not back George Osborne’s hypothetical post-Brexit budget.
65 Tory MPs have now signed letter saying Osborne's position 'untenable' if he tried to force thro brexit budget