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You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/a-divided-nation-ill-at-ease-with-itself-readers-on-the-eu-referendum
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| 'A divided nation ill at ease with itself': readers on the EU referendum | 'A divided nation ill at ease with itself': readers on the EU referendum |
| (2 months later) | |
| When Rupert Murdoch makes his mind up and throws the weight of his newspaper (in England and Wales at least) behind a vote, and you aren’t on his side, you have cause for concern. That might have been the mood in the remain camp on Wednesday morning when campaigners saw the Sun’s front page backing Brexit. Here, we look at your reactions to Labour further making its case for remain, a film looking at why that message isn’t getting through, and some impassioned pleas on social media. | When Rupert Murdoch makes his mind up and throws the weight of his newspaper (in England and Wales at least) behind a vote, and you aren’t on his side, you have cause for concern. That might have been the mood in the remain camp on Wednesday morning when campaigners saw the Sun’s front page backing Brexit. Here, we look at your reactions to Labour further making its case for remain, a film looking at why that message isn’t getting through, and some impassioned pleas on social media. |
| Click on the links at the end of each section to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens. | Click on the links at the end of each section to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens. |
| 1. EU referendum live: Jeremy Corbyn urges Labour supporters to vote remain | 1. EU referendum live: Jeremy Corbyn urges Labour supporters to vote remain |
| With fresh polling indicating the likelihood of leave winning, there will have been much to worry about in the remain camp on Tuesday morning. Though would a Labour In for Britain event prove timely and make a difference? | With fresh polling indicating the likelihood of leave winning, there will have been much to worry about in the remain camp on Tuesday morning. Though would a Labour In for Britain event prove timely and make a difference? |
| Jeremy Corbyn took to the stage with this comment: | Jeremy Corbyn took to the stage with this comment: |
| “This is the Labour movement saying we are voting to remain in the European Union next week. We’re saying that because we want to defend the very many gains made by trade unions across Europe that have brought us better working conditions, longer holidays, less discrimination and maternity and paternity leave.” | “This is the Labour movement saying we are voting to remain in the European Union next week. We’re saying that because we want to defend the very many gains made by trade unions across Europe that have brought us better working conditions, longer holidays, less discrimination and maternity and paternity leave.” |
| So the Labour Leader clearly wants to remain. The Labour Party wants to remain which is why they did not want to have referendum on the EU. So lets get this straight right now, as it seems that there is a gradual build up in the press. A Brexit vote will not be down to Labour ! It is squarely down to Dave Cameron trying to appease his backbenchers and his negative campaigning.The little digs at Labour that seem to be permiating into the press, as the Polls get closer and closer, are not going to wash | So the Labour Leader clearly wants to remain. The Labour Party wants to remain which is why they did not want to have referendum on the EU. So lets get this straight right now, as it seems that there is a gradual build up in the press. A Brexit vote will not be down to Labour ! It is squarely down to Dave Cameron trying to appease his backbenchers and his negative campaigning.The little digs at Labour that seem to be permiating into the press, as the Polls get closer and closer, are not going to wash |
| Below are some more of the comments that got you talking. | Below are some more of the comments that got you talking. |
| The far left Labour have crippled their party and crippled the country, the Tory party have had no credible opposition for years which is very bad for the country.By denying the damaging effects of mass immigration and denying the populace a vote on the EU they have well and truly ignored the views of the people of this country.They are still doing it | The far left Labour have crippled their party and crippled the country, the Tory party have had no credible opposition for years which is very bad for the country.By denying the damaging effects of mass immigration and denying the populace a vote on the EU they have well and truly ignored the views of the people of this country.They are still doing it |
| I fear for Brexiters. They all seem to be voting for something that will never be achieved. We already control the majority of our immigration, we could stop that tomorrow and more than halve immigration, yet we don't. We will still have to adopt EU regs if we want to trade with them, will have to pay into the single market if we wish to use it. We'll just be a poorer nation. The sad thing is Brexiters actually think this will give them more say, more democracy....they just fail to realise that the UK is already less democratic than the EU. | I fear for Brexiters. They all seem to be voting for something that will never be achieved. We already control the majority of our immigration, we could stop that tomorrow and more than halve immigration, yet we don't. We will still have to adopt EU regs if we want to trade with them, will have to pay into the single market if we wish to use it. We'll just be a poorer nation. The sad thing is Brexiters actually think this will give them more say, more democracy....they just fail to realise that the UK is already less democratic than the EU. |
| i know for a fact that most Labour supporters are voting to 'leave' the EU, and what Jeremy Corbyn says will not make any difference, his interference in the publics will could actually turn more to vote to leave. Like Cameron his best bet is to take a back seat and say nothing! | i know for a fact that most Labour supporters are voting to 'leave' the EU, and what Jeremy Corbyn says will not make any difference, his interference in the publics will could actually turn more to vote to leave. Like Cameron his best bet is to take a back seat and say nothing! |
| As usual with a fast-moving live blog, your conversations went off on many related tangents. You can click on the links on any of these comments to get involved. | As usual with a fast-moving live blog, your conversations went off on many related tangents. You can click on the links on any of these comments to get involved. |
| This is so much like the Scots indyref all over again. | This is so much like the Scots indyref all over again. |
| The late surge in polls for the separatist side (that turned out to be non-existent), the allegedly spooked government side, tales of Labour supporters backing leaving and so on. All we need is a dodgy "vow" and it'll be the full set. | The late surge in polls for the separatist side (that turned out to be non-existent), the allegedly spooked government side, tales of Labour supporters backing leaving and so on. All we need is a dodgy "vow" and it'll be the full set. |
| The real 'Project Fear' was then and is now convincing your side that the other side is going to win in order to maximise turnout to stop it. That's what we're seeing now IMO. | The real 'Project Fear' was then and is now convincing your side that the other side is going to win in order to maximise turnout to stop it. That's what we're seeing now IMO. |
| So many wild claims have been made by both sides that if Brexit does happen neither set of politicians will come out of it looking good. | So many wild claims have been made by both sides that if Brexit does happen neither set of politicians will come out of it looking good. |
| Cameron, Osborne and co will be challenged on why things haven't been as apocalyptic as they suggested before the vote. | Cameron, Osborne and co will be challenged on why things haven't been as apocalyptic as they suggested before the vote. |
| Boris, Gove and co on the other hand will be left explaining why they suddenly can't keep all of the spending promises (amongst other things) that they made during the referendum campaign. I suspect the phrase "The EU is being unreasonable" would come up a lot there. | Boris, Gove and co on the other hand will be left explaining why they suddenly can't keep all of the spending promises (amongst other things) that they made during the referendum campaign. I suspect the phrase "The EU is being unreasonable" would come up a lot there. |
| Elephant in the room is that vast majority of politicians leading for Brexit don't give a shit about ordinary people - look at their voting records on theyworkforyou, look at what they've done for ordinary people (attack on welfare, attack on education, attack on air quality, bugger all about housing for ordinary people). Nigel Farage? He won't even declare his tax return. Don't you smell a rat? | Elephant in the room is that vast majority of politicians leading for Brexit don't give a shit about ordinary people - look at their voting records on theyworkforyou, look at what they've done for ordinary people (attack on welfare, attack on education, attack on air quality, bugger all about housing for ordinary people). Nigel Farage? He won't even declare his tax return. Don't you smell a rat? |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| 2. The Labour supporters backing Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent heartland – video | 2. The Labour supporters backing Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent heartland – video |
| John Harris took to the streets and found that the message from Corbyn and the Labour party had not resonated in Stoke-on-Trent, a Labour stronghold. | John Harris took to the streets and found that the message from Corbyn and the Labour party had not resonated in Stoke-on-Trent, a Labour stronghold. |
| As well as campaigners and locals he met local Labour MP, Ruth Smeeth, who said the remain campaign’s message nationally “doesn’t work for her constituency”. You can watch the video here and read some of the key discussion points you have been picking up on below. | As well as campaigners and locals he met local Labour MP, Ruth Smeeth, who said the remain campaign’s message nationally “doesn’t work for her constituency”. You can watch the video here and read some of the key discussion points you have been picking up on below. |
| Well this is my home city; I'm Remain (the prospects for S-O-T are even bleaker outside) but my entire family in Stoke are Out for the reasons John heard in this video. The Labour Party is much to blame - parachuting aliens like Tristram Hunt into places like Stoke and then electing Milliband and Corbyn - the two best recruiting sergeants UKIP ever had. So out of touch it's astonishing. It's like they've never done what John does hear - actually go out and speak to people and lead their opinion - the EU hasn't wrecked the economy of Stoke. That was a combination of Tory policy in the 80s, globalisation, low educational attainment and mechanisation and zero help from the Labour Party. Obviously that's not stopping the EU bearing the blame in places like Stoke. | Well this is my home city; I'm Remain (the prospects for S-O-T are even bleaker outside) but my entire family in Stoke are Out for the reasons John heard in this video. The Labour Party is much to blame - parachuting aliens like Tristram Hunt into places like Stoke and then electing Milliband and Corbyn - the two best recruiting sergeants UKIP ever had. So out of touch it's astonishing. It's like they've never done what John does hear - actually go out and speak to people and lead their opinion - the EU hasn't wrecked the economy of Stoke. That was a combination of Tory policy in the 80s, globalisation, low educational attainment and mechanisation and zero help from the Labour Party. Obviously that's not stopping the EU bearing the blame in places like Stoke. |
| Btw the shot of a Moslem family walking in front of derelict shops also implies a connection - shame on you for that moment, John. | Btw the shot of a Moslem family walking in front of derelict shops also implies a connection - shame on you for that moment, John. |
| It seems to me that the middle classes and the federalism-by-stealth oligarchs who purport to speak on our behalf are about to get a rude awakening. Perhaps we could have had some kind of happy medium negotiated on behalf of the people, but no one was listening. Or maybe the Lisbon Treaty and it's ever-closer sneaky drift to federalism meant that this moment was inevitable (no one believes Cameron's recently negotiated opt out - too little, too late). | It seems to me that the middle classes and the federalism-by-stealth oligarchs who purport to speak on our behalf are about to get a rude awakening. Perhaps we could have had some kind of happy medium negotiated on behalf of the people, but no one was listening. Or maybe the Lisbon Treaty and it's ever-closer sneaky drift to federalism meant that this moment was inevitable (no one believes Cameron's recently negotiated opt out - too little, too late). |
| The people of Stoke think things can't possibly get worse, so why not roll the dice. They're wrong, but they're right that no one has listened to them (least of all Labour) for twenty years. They're listening now. | The people of Stoke think things can't possibly get worse, so why not roll the dice. They're wrong, but they're right that no one has listened to them (least of all Labour) for twenty years. They're listening now. |
| The Referendum was a huge mistake for the Conservatives its caused us to take a long hard look at ourselves as a nation, and whether you are for Remain or Leave I think you must agree what we've seen is very depressing-huge disparities in wealth and opportunity, a divided nation ill at ease with itself. | The Referendum was a huge mistake for the Conservatives its caused us to take a long hard look at ourselves as a nation, and whether you are for Remain or Leave I think you must agree what we've seen is very depressing-huge disparities in wealth and opportunity, a divided nation ill at ease with itself. |
| There's a growing sense of alienation and disenchantment with mainstream political parties. Does anyone think the Conservatives are worthy of being in government anymore? They have failed us miserably and only served their own class interests. Does Labour represent the working man? A dangerous vacuum has opened. | There's a growing sense of alienation and disenchantment with mainstream political parties. Does anyone think the Conservatives are worthy of being in government anymore? They have failed us miserably and only served their own class interests. Does Labour represent the working man? A dangerous vacuum has opened. |
| Some see the EU has helping to ameliorate the situation others see it as another expression of the same neoliberal policies that bedevil us at a national level. Its a dilemma? Whichever way we vote one faction of the neoliberal Tories will be cock-a-hoop, but its not a general election is it, its a vote to remain in the EU or leave the EU. | Some see the EU has helping to ameliorate the situation others see it as another expression of the same neoliberal policies that bedevil us at a national level. Its a dilemma? Whichever way we vote one faction of the neoliberal Tories will be cock-a-hoop, but its not a general election is it, its a vote to remain in the EU or leave the EU. |
| I'm voting Leave. This is not an endorsement of the opportunists who have hijacked a campaign that really should have been led by Labour. What happens next will be very interesting, but its clear we cant let things remain as they are. The status quo may work for the rich and the privileged but for the rest of us it's the least attractive, least democratic gagging option, voting Leave will be a pivotal moment in the fight back for democracy and and the recreation of a fairer society for all . | I'm voting Leave. This is not an endorsement of the opportunists who have hijacked a campaign that really should have been led by Labour. What happens next will be very interesting, but its clear we cant let things remain as they are. The status quo may work for the rich and the privileged but for the rest of us it's the least attractive, least democratic gagging option, voting Leave will be a pivotal moment in the fight back for democracy and and the recreation of a fairer society for all . |
| Harris also met a Ukip voter on the street who said: “When we get out the EU I’ll reassess.” It is perhaps clear that for some people this is a protest vote rather than a vote for their future. | Harris also met a Ukip voter on the street who said: “When we get out the EU I’ll reassess.” It is perhaps clear that for some people this is a protest vote rather than a vote for their future. |
| Kind of depressing and encouraging. Interesting that the UKIP bloke was not a committed UKIP voter - once the EU referendum was over, he was open to offers. What Labour needs is a proposition that genuinely speaks to these people. And it could be that a future platform include some kind of commitment to immigration control. There. I've said it. The Overton window has moved. | Kind of depressing and encouraging. Interesting that the UKIP bloke was not a committed UKIP voter - once the EU referendum was over, he was open to offers. What Labour needs is a proposition that genuinely speaks to these people. And it could be that a future platform include some kind of commitment to immigration control. There. I've said it. The Overton window has moved. |
| So as I have always believed - people are hurting and want to blame someone. So they fall for Leavers and UKIP who will simply provide them a shoulder to cry on and say - yes all the fault of immigrants and the EU. | So as I have always believed - people are hurting and want to blame someone. So they fall for Leavers and UKIP who will simply provide them a shoulder to cry on and say - yes all the fault of immigrants and the EU. |
| I have met people who say they are feaful of immigration but do not actually know many immigrants. | I have met people who say they are feaful of immigration but do not actually know many immigrants. |
| The video of the spectaled man on his door step - saying there are load of council houses out there just left for immigrant about sums up the ignorance that is allowed to foster and nurtured by UKIP - and UKIP will never be able to provide any evidence of it. | The video of the spectaled man on his door step - saying there are load of council houses out there just left for immigrant about sums up the ignorance that is allowed to foster and nurtured by UKIP - and UKIP will never be able to provide any evidence of it. |
| This video speaks volumes, why the hell is the Labour party taking a view on the EU that is so wildly at odds with its natural supporters? EU membership does nothing for ordinary working people and probably harms their long term interests. We don't need unelected EU officials to protect the rights of UK workers, that is the raison d'etre of the Labour party. Have some confidence in the UK democratic system - if people felt that Labour genuinely put their interests first, then perhaps they would start winning again. In the meantime, let's vote #Leave and at least live in a democracy again. | This video speaks volumes, why the hell is the Labour party taking a view on the EU that is so wildly at odds with its natural supporters? EU membership does nothing for ordinary working people and probably harms their long term interests. We don't need unelected EU officials to protect the rights of UK workers, that is the raison d'etre of the Labour party. Have some confidence in the UK democratic system - if people felt that Labour genuinely put their interests first, then perhaps they would start winning again. In the meantime, let's vote #Leave and at least live in a democracy again. |
| Good old Stoke, you have to travel a long way to find such a good natured, down to earth, and unassuming bunch of people. But I can't believe no one in that otherwise well produced video didn't say duck. | Good old Stoke, you have to travel a long way to find such a good natured, down to earth, and unassuming bunch of people. But I can't believe no one in that otherwise well produced video didn't say duck. |
| Good to see the remaining potters seem to be doing OK, but Stoke could still be doing a whole lot more to increase exports of its most famous product. All well and good selling plates to people outside Stoke, but where can I get any oaties to eat off said plate? | Good to see the remaining potters seem to be doing OK, but Stoke could still be doing a whole lot more to increase exports of its most famous product. All well and good selling plates to people outside Stoke, but where can I get any oaties to eat off said plate? |
| But what planet are those 2 Labour MPs from? At least she has a go at engaging with people, Tristam Hunt? If Labour can't get at least 1 local candidate elected as MP for somewhere like the 5 towns, you can understand what a real mess it is in. | But what planet are those 2 Labour MPs from? At least she has a go at engaging with people, Tristam Hunt? If Labour can't get at least 1 local candidate elected as MP for somewhere like the 5 towns, you can understand what a real mess it is in. |
| Many of you came back to immigration. | Many of you came back to immigration. |
| Interesting video. I think that last woman interviewed may have explained the problem. People have been unhappy about high immigration for a while, no one listened, voting leave forces people to listen. There is a lesson there. | Interesting video. I think that last woman interviewed may have explained the problem. People have been unhappy about high immigration for a while, no one listened, voting leave forces people to listen. There is a lesson there. |
| Finally on this point, it’s hard to miss some of the praise our reporter is receiving for his work, so thanks for watching and joining the conversation. | Finally on this point, it’s hard to miss some of the praise our reporter is receiving for his work, so thanks for watching and joining the conversation. |
| I'd just like to say, another excellent piece by John Harris. Amongst all the blatant propaganda from both sides it's nice to see a genuine conversation with regular people. And a broad spectrum too! I liked the surprise in the middle - the much maligned and misunderstood immigrants wanting out as well! Keep up the good work Mr Harris, you're a big reason why I keep coming to this website | I'd just like to say, another excellent piece by John Harris. Amongst all the blatant propaganda from both sides it's nice to see a genuine conversation with regular people. And a broad spectrum too! I liked the surprise in the middle - the much maligned and misunderstood immigrants wanting out as well! Keep up the good work Mr Harris, you're a big reason why I keep coming to this website |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| 3. Friends vs politicians: how viral posts are shaping the EU referendum | 3. Friends vs politicians: how viral posts are shaping the EU referendum |
| More of you are telling us that you are disengaged from so-called “establishment” voices on the campaign trail. Projects such as John Harris’s film, above, which meets “normal” people and shares their concerns and hopes are resonating. This piece looks at how word-of-mouth advocacy on social media is playing an important role engaging people in the upcoming vote. | More of you are telling us that you are disengaged from so-called “establishment” voices on the campaign trail. Projects such as John Harris’s film, above, which meets “normal” people and shares their concerns and hopes are resonating. This piece looks at how word-of-mouth advocacy on social media is playing an important role engaging people in the upcoming vote. |
| I am almost afraid to post anything urging friends to remain. My Facebook includes people I was at school with many years ago who saw me as a "snob" (and said so) because I was quite academic, and as they seem to be leaning to Brexit I actually fear that anything I post will simply antagonise them and have the opposite effect. I feel that peoples' voting is THAT atavistic. | I am almost afraid to post anything urging friends to remain. My Facebook includes people I was at school with many years ago who saw me as a "snob" (and said so) because I was quite academic, and as they seem to be leaning to Brexit I actually fear that anything I post will simply antagonise them and have the opposite effect. I feel that peoples' voting is THAT atavistic. |
| We spoke with Nick Carter-Lando, whose impassioned plea on behalf of remain, had gone viral on Facebook. He said: “If you see something from a friend you’ll read it with a sympathetic ear; you’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, which you wouldn’t with an MP or some soundbite on television.” | We spoke with Nick Carter-Lando, whose impassioned plea on behalf of remain, had gone viral on Facebook. He said: “If you see something from a friend you’ll read it with a sympathetic ear; you’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, which you wouldn’t with an MP or some soundbite on television.” |
| Purely on a an entirely unscientific basis I reckon about 95% of my facebook people who have posted or liked things in relation to the referendum are in the remain camp. There is a tiny minority on the leave side. There is an education/type of industry split there. The majority are in academia or service based industries who have lot of EU interaction professionally, the leavers are more manual workers who's interaction is in the form of the polish guy on site etc. | Purely on a an entirely unscientific basis I reckon about 95% of my facebook people who have posted or liked things in relation to the referendum are in the remain camp. There is a tiny minority on the leave side. There is an education/type of industry split there. The majority are in academia or service based industries who have lot of EU interaction professionally, the leavers are more manual workers who's interaction is in the form of the polish guy on site etc. |
| On this theme I an genuinely staggered by the activity of pro-brexit people on social media. The speed of response in comment sections to any piece of pro-remain analysis is breathtaking. And the force of those responses (in seeking to tear down any argument that is put forward) is pretty staggering too. Seemingly, for virtually every pro-remain post the first comment is an aggressive rebuttal. If nothing else, you have to praise their coordination. But it's a sad day for democracy when immediately shouting "that's rubbish" to an attempt to stimulate informed debate becomes an entrenched and accepted practice... | On this theme I an genuinely staggered by the activity of pro-brexit people on social media. The speed of response in comment sections to any piece of pro-remain analysis is breathtaking. And the force of those responses (in seeking to tear down any argument that is put forward) is pretty staggering too. Seemingly, for virtually every pro-remain post the first comment is an aggressive rebuttal. If nothing else, you have to praise their coordination. But it's a sad day for democracy when immediately shouting "that's rubbish" to an attempt to stimulate informed debate becomes an entrenched and accepted practice... |
| Finally, it’s not just on social media where we see passion. | Finally, it’s not just on social media where we see passion. |
| If you vote remain, Boris will move into Number 10 regardless and put his own people around him. The next thing he will do is personally appoint his own man as the UK's Commissioner to the EU. You won't know his name and you won't be able to recognise his face. Nevertheless, this nameless, faceless bureaucrat, this Tory plant, will write your laws, appoint your judiciary, set the agenda for your life and nation. And there won't be a thing you can do about it. Ever. You can't afford one of the 15,000 lobbyists living in Brussels. You aren't a giant capitalist. You aren't an international bank. Why should he listen to a pleb like you? The one thing, the one power you have to hold your executive and legislature to account, your vote, will be taken out of your hands and put into Boris's. | If you vote remain, Boris will move into Number 10 regardless and put his own people around him. The next thing he will do is personally appoint his own man as the UK's Commissioner to the EU. You won't know his name and you won't be able to recognise his face. Nevertheless, this nameless, faceless bureaucrat, this Tory plant, will write your laws, appoint your judiciary, set the agenda for your life and nation. And there won't be a thing you can do about it. Ever. You can't afford one of the 15,000 lobbyists living in Brussels. You aren't a giant capitalist. You aren't an international bank. Why should he listen to a pleb like you? The one thing, the one power you have to hold your executive and legislature to account, your vote, will be taken out of your hands and put into Boris's. |
| Join the debate here. | Join the debate here. |
| We’ll be back tomorrow with another roundup of what you’re talking about in the comment sections on the EU referendum. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below. | We’ll be back tomorrow with another roundup of what you’re talking about in the comment sections on the EU referendum. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below. |
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