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George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live
(35 minutes later)
12.07am GMT
00:07
Pell says investigating Searson was not his responsibility
O’Dwyer: “Cardinal, can I put this to you: At this time, that is by August or later, whenever the meeting was, at this time in 1991, you were in the loop as far as knowledge of Father Searson being a risk to children in terms of abusing them. You were in the loop.”
Pell: “Yes. And the whole point at issue of course is the level of that risk and just what could be done within the church and state law to deal with that.”
O’Dwyer: “At a minimum, what I suggest to you is that knowledge would have required you to firstly investigate those matters that are outlined, investigate them.”
Pell: “No, that’s not the case because the responsibility is with the normal executive agents. If they’d asked my opinion I would have given it.”
Justice McClellan interjects here.
McClellan: Now do you not think, irrespective of who might have had the formal authority, that it fell upon you to do everything you could to ensure that these problems were investigated by someone and, if found to be true, proper action was taken?”
Pell: “Yes. I believe that’s the case. I believe that there was an investigation by the Catholic Education Office, there was an investigation by Minter Ellison and I was satisfied that the matter was in hand.”
Pell denies responsibility of Father Searson, whom he admits was a risk to children. Passes buck to education office.
#Pell on Searson: “I’m not sure I recommended any particular course of action… I did as I was asked and was happy enough... to do just that”
11.51pm GMT
23:51
Paul O’Dwyer SC, representing two child sexual abuse victims, is asking Pell about pedophile priest Peter Searson. Complaints had been made about Searson from his time as a parish priest at Our Lady of Mount Carmel parish in Sunbury in 1977, to the decade when he was a parish priest at Holy Family parish in Doveton, the commission has previously heard.
O’Dwyer: “We now know clearly, from reading all the documents, that there had been along-standing concern at that school that Father Searson was a risk to those children, at risk of sexual abusing those children. We know that, don’t we?”
Pell: “We now know that. At that stage, I knew primarily what the staff came to tell me and what they did tell me.”
O’Dwyer: “You see, when the staff presented their grievances, I suggest to you that it was obvious that they were concerned about those three matters that I’ve just pointed to you in relation to the children.”
Staff told Pell Searson had shown children a dead body in a coffin, had tortured animals in front of them, and was using the children’s toilets, the commission heard. Pell said he did not think those grievances warranted removing Searson or going to police.
Pell: “They were concerned about the whole list of grievances they presented to me, all categories.”
O’Dwyer: “Of course but in explaining their grievances, I suggest to you that given the history of this school it beggars belief that they would not have told you of their concerns they had aboutFather Searson and the safety of children.”
Pell: “They were expressed to some degree but that has to be set in the context where they were not asking for him to be removed.”
The allegations of Searson’s abusing meant he had to “unpack what they meant in actual fact because, as always with allegations, they have to be tested,” Pell says.
“I remember very explicitly that they said they were not asking for his removal and, obviously, that is incompatible with their saying to me that he was a serious risk for pedophilia. Or was engaged in that activity.”
Pell says Searson's defence for loitering around toilets was to ensure there was no graffiti @australian @SkyNewsAust @abcnews @Colvinius
Updated
at 11.53pm GMT
11.38pm GMT
23:38
Shine Lawyers national legal partner, Lisa Flynn, has provided this analysis:
Following this morning’s revelations and Cardinal Pell’s testimony thus far, I believe that there is now little doubt he was derelict in his duty. If he did know of abuse within the midst of the Church and failed to take heed and act then both himself and the Church’s conduct is tantamount to negligence whereby the victims must be compensated for their suffering.
Some of Pell’s testimony also lends itself to questioning whether the Church has deliberately concealed certain knowledge that it possessed but failed to divulge at the time of past criminal and civil proceedings against the Christian Brothers and the Church. If that is so, then this could be considered to be conduct akin to fraudulent concealment.
For far too long now, the church has shirked it’s responsibility by hiding behind defences such as the statute of limitations. Now, with the limitation impediment removed in the state of Victoria and on the basis of Pell and other clergy members being aware of abuse at the time of its occurrence, the way is paved for fair and proper reparation to be made to the victims.
Shine represents survivors of child sexual abuse.
Updated
at 11.38pm GMT
11.36pm GMT
23:36
Victim could be alive today had he not been abused, commission hears
Pell agrees that at least one child sexual abuse victim may still be alive had he not been sexually abused and a proper investigation into his abuse carried out. But he says Bishop Mulkearns, not he, should have acted.
Lawyer: “Helen Watson’s son, Peter, who died in 1999, could have still been alive if a proper investigation had have been done. That’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal? Peter Watson could have been alive?”
Pell: “Yes, a proper investigation would have helped impede that and of course you need to have at least prima facie evidence to call an inquiry.
Lawyer: “And my client, BPD, who lives with the guilt and shame of Peter Watson’s death, given the knowledge he had of [pedophile] Paul David Ryan, and the fact he’d reported to the bishop, he does not bear the blame, the victims don’t bear the blame for this failure to report, the responsibility lay with the archbishops and the bishops, didn’t it, Cardinal?”
Pell: “The responsibility lay with the person who did not act when he should have and that would certainly seem to have been Bishop [Ronald] Mulkearns for sure.”
Updated
at 11.48pm GMT
11.30pm GMT11.30pm GMT
23:3023:30
The lawyers are pressed for time, with the commission due to finish at 1pm. Many have had their requested time for questioning cut back, and are being kept to a strict schedule.The lawyers are pressed for time, with the commission due to finish at 1pm. Many have had their requested time for questioning cut back, and are being kept to a strict schedule.
The lawyers are rushing to get everything in today, which means #Pell is facing machine-gun questioning #royalcommissionThe lawyers are rushing to get everything in today, which means #Pell is facing machine-gun questioning #royalcommission
11.26pm GMT11.26pm GMT
23:2623:26
Sky News’ Simon Love is back at the Ballarat Town Hall for the final day of Pell’s evidence. He was joined by a small group of survivors for the early start.Sky News’ Simon Love is back at the Ballarat Town Hall for the final day of Pell’s evidence. He was joined by a small group of survivors for the early start.
Small group of survivors inside Ballarat Town Hall for the early start on final day of #Pell evidence @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/D1kf7G4f9ySmall group of survivors inside Ballarat Town Hall for the early start on final day of #Pell evidence @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/D1kf7G4f9y
As Love’s reported over the past four days, it was another lively crowd.As Love’s reported over the past four days, it was another lively crowd.
I'm hearing people in Ballarat Town Hall muttering "liar" as #pell carefully answer questions @SkyNewsAust @KKeneallyI'm hearing people in Ballarat Town Hall muttering "liar" as #pell carefully answer questions @SkyNewsAust @KKeneally
Fair bit of laughter in Ballarat Town Hall as Jim Shaw suggests #Pell is lying to retest reputation. Mood building here. @SkyNewsAustFair bit of laughter in Ballarat Town Hall as Jim Shaw suggests #Pell is lying to retest reputation. Mood building here. @SkyNewsAust
Sarah Farnsworth of the ABC is also in Ballarat and tweeted about this emotional scene at the town hall earlier this morning.Sarah Farnsworth of the ABC is also in Ballarat and tweeted about this emotional scene at the town hall earlier this morning.
Ballarat town hall bursts into applause as lawyer angrily asks #Pell "Why didn't you take it to police? Why didn't you tell someone?"Ballarat town hall bursts into applause as lawyer angrily asks #Pell "Why didn't you take it to police? Why didn't you tell someone?"
11.18pm GMT11.18pm GMT
23:1823:18
Shaw: “I suggest very directly you are lying about this to protect your own reputation. What do you say about that?”Shaw: “I suggest very directly you are lying about this to protect your own reputation. What do you say about that?”
Pell: “I’d say that is completely untrue and unjustified by any evidence. It is a baseless allegation.”Pell: “I’d say that is completely untrue and unjustified by any evidence. It is a baseless allegation.”
Shaw: “Can I suggest ... the church cared more about itself as an institution than it did about little children and adolescents entrusted to its care, that’s right, isn’t it?”Shaw: “Can I suggest ... the church cared more about itself as an institution than it did about little children and adolescents entrusted to its care, that’s right, isn’t it?”
Pell: “The church too often did not care adequately for the survivors and children.”Pell: “The church too often did not care adequately for the survivors and children.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.21pm GMTat 11.21pm GMT
11.15pm GMT11.15pm GMT
23:1523:15
A lawyer representing victims, Jim Shaw, puts it to Pell: “To paraphrase the old saying, your memory works in mysterious ways, Cardinal?”A lawyer representing victims, Jim Shaw, puts it to Pell: “To paraphrase the old saying, your memory works in mysterious ways, Cardinal?”
Pell: “No more mysterious than many other people and in fact my memory of events 30 or 40 years ago might be marginally better than the memories of some.”Pell: “No more mysterious than many other people and in fact my memory of events 30 or 40 years ago might be marginally better than the memories of some.”
Shaw: “I suggest it’s implausible that the only thing you would remember nothing of these meetings except for one thing and a thing that didn’t happen. That is, the fact that paedophilia was not mentioned? That is implausible, Cardinal?”Shaw: “I suggest it’s implausible that the only thing you would remember nothing of these meetings except for one thing and a thing that didn’t happen. That is, the fact that paedophilia was not mentioned? That is implausible, Cardinal?”
Pell: “Well,the way you put it, it certainly is. I never suggested I remembered nothing of the meetings. Paedophilia is abhorrent and if it was mentioned, I would have remembered it.”Pell: “Well,the way you put it, it certainly is. I never suggested I remembered nothing of the meetings. Paedophilia is abhorrent and if it was mentioned, I would have remembered it.”
The meeting being referred to is a meeting of consultors in 1982 where Pell was present. At the meeting it was decided to move notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale for a sixth time between parishes. While the majority of people at that meeting knew Ridsdale was abusing children, Pell maintains he did not know and he also did not know the true reason for Ridsdale being moved. On Wednesday counsel assisting, Gail Furness, told Pell it was implausible that the bishop and his other consultors knew while Pell did not.The meeting being referred to is a meeting of consultors in 1982 where Pell was present. At the meeting it was decided to move notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale for a sixth time between parishes. While the majority of people at that meeting knew Ridsdale was abusing children, Pell maintains he did not know and he also did not know the true reason for Ridsdale being moved. On Wednesday counsel assisting, Gail Furness, told Pell it was implausible that the bishop and his other consultors knew while Pell did not.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.25pm GMTat 11.25pm GMT
11.04pm GMT11.04pm GMT
23:0423:04
The royal commission has resumed.The royal commission has resumed.
The hearing has resumed. Cardinal Pell is giving evidence. Watch online https://t.co/ftEOVFvfXXThe hearing has resumed. Cardinal Pell is giving evidence. Watch online https://t.co/ftEOVFvfXX
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.05pm GMTat 11.05pm GMT
10.57pm GMT10.57pm GMT
22:5722:57
Fairfax cartoonist Cathy Wilcox with her take on the proceedings:Fairfax cartoonist Cathy Wilcox with her take on the proceedings:
Three not very interested monkeys.My @smh cartoon. pic.twitter.com/t7IjnWZ2QGThree not very interested monkeys.My @smh cartoon. pic.twitter.com/t7IjnWZ2QG
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.26pm GMTat 11.26pm GMT
10.51pm GMT10.51pm GMT
22:5122:51
A recap of this morning's evidenceA recap of this morning's evidence
I wonder who is writing the summary of Cardinal Pell's evidence for the Pope each day?I wonder who is writing the summary of Cardinal Pell's evidence for the Pope each day?
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.01pm GMTat 11.01pm GMT
10.42pm GMT10.42pm GMT
22:4222:42
Abuse survivor, David Ridsdale, speaks to the press in RomeAbuse survivor, David Ridsdale, speaks to the press in Rome
David Ridsdale’s lawyer cross-examined Pell this morning. He tells the media:David Ridsdale’s lawyer cross-examined Pell this morning. He tells the media:
You’re our voice. Seriously, you are our voice. Without the media survivors just wouldn’t get anywhere. So anyway, it’s difficult for us ... it’s difficult for us not to give in to the strong emotional responses that the lack of empathy evokes in survivors. We maintain our dignity.You’re our voice. Seriously, you are our voice. Without the media survivors just wouldn’t get anywhere. So anyway, it’s difficult for us ... it’s difficult for us not to give in to the strong emotional responses that the lack of empathy evokes in survivors. We maintain our dignity.
Another survivor, Philip Nagle, adds:Another survivor, Philip Nagle, adds:
The Ballarat survivors came to Rome to hear truth and honesty from George. We feel we have been deceived and lied to. The royal commission at some stage in the future will give a recommendation on the evidence given by George. We feel George has not been honest not truthful. George will have to live with this chosen course.The Ballarat survivors came to Rome to hear truth and honesty from George. We feel we have been deceived and lied to. The royal commission at some stage in the future will give a recommendation on the evidence given by George. We feel George has not been honest not truthful. George will have to live with this chosen course.
They said they did not want to weigh into whether Pell should resign, saying that was a matter for the Vatican, the police and the royal commission.They said they did not want to weigh into whether Pell should resign, saying that was a matter for the Vatican, the police and the royal commission.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.49pm GMTat 10.49pm GMT
10.37pm GMT10.37pm GMT
22:3722:37
Pell must stand down – Manny WaksPell must stand down – Manny Waks
In 1988, when he was 11 years old, Manny Waks was abused by a member of the Orthodox Jewish Yeshivah centre known only to the commission as AVP. The man abused Waks multiple times. When he was 12 another Yeshivah staff member, security guard David Cyprys, began sexually abusing him.In 1988, when he was 11 years old, Manny Waks was abused by a member of the Orthodox Jewish Yeshivah centre known only to the commission as AVP. The man abused Waks multiple times. When he was 12 another Yeshivah staff member, security guard David Cyprys, began sexually abusing him.
At a press conference in Rome, Waks said he had just arrived in Italy because he felt compelled to support the Catholic survivors. Waks gave evidence to the commission during its hearings last year into the Yeshivah centres. Waks told reporters a couple of minutes ago:At a press conference in Rome, Waks said he had just arrived in Italy because he felt compelled to support the Catholic survivors. Waks gave evidence to the commission during its hearings last year into the Yeshivah centres. Waks told reporters a couple of minutes ago:
I’m here on behalf of the Jewish community. I’ve been watching the ongoing developments over the last few days and nights from Israel. I felt compelled to come over here personally, I’ve just gotten off the flight an hour ago and to stand in support of these courageous survivors and their families.I’m here on behalf of the Jewish community. I’ve been watching the ongoing developments over the last few days and nights from Israel. I felt compelled to come over here personally, I’ve just gotten off the flight an hour ago and to stand in support of these courageous survivors and their families.
As we know, this issue crosses borders. It’s not unique to any religion and we need to address it robustly and there are no excuses and there is – this is the time for no more silence. As a member of the Jewish community, as a leader of the Jewish community, there are hundreds if not thousands of Jews around the world who have contacted me and asked me to personally convey this message publicly and to the survivors and the families themselves.As we know, this issue crosses borders. It’s not unique to any religion and we need to address it robustly and there are no excuses and there is – this is the time for no more silence. As a member of the Jewish community, as a leader of the Jewish community, there are hundreds if not thousands of Jews around the world who have contacted me and asked me to personally convey this message publicly and to the survivors and the families themselves.
From my perspective personally I would say that Cardinal Pell must resign from his position. If he was aware of some of those issues that went on back then, clearly he’s culpable. If he didn’t know of what was going on, then he’s incompetent. If he’s not going to do that for the victims and the survivors, then he should do that for itself.From my perspective personally I would say that Cardinal Pell must resign from his position. If he was aware of some of those issues that went on back then, clearly he’s culpable. If he didn’t know of what was going on, then he’s incompetent. If he’s not going to do that for the victims and the survivors, then he should do that for itself.
You can read my interview with Waks from last year here.You can read my interview with Waks from last year here.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.50pm GMTat 10.50pm GMT
10.31pm GMT10.31pm GMT
22:3122:31
'Coincidence, my foot. They clearly colluded' – survivor'Coincidence, my foot. They clearly colluded' – survivor
Stephen Woods – who was abused by the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Francis Ridsdale and the convicted paedophile brother Robert Charles Best while a student at St Alipius primary school has given a press conference outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome.Stephen Woods – who was abused by the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Francis Ridsdale and the convicted paedophile brother Robert Charles Best while a student at St Alipius primary school has given a press conference outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome.
As with all survivors, we are really hopeful that more would have come out as far as the cover-ups of the ongoing, I suppose instability is the feeling I’m feeling in the Catholic church, that they seem to not really be sure about how to deal with so much criminality.As with all survivors, we are really hopeful that more would have come out as far as the cover-ups of the ongoing, I suppose instability is the feeling I’m feeling in the Catholic church, that they seem to not really be sure about how to deal with so much criminality.
Because there’s been no independent investigations, been no worrying about what has gone on over the last century in Australia. As we heard just before that Cardinal Pell said that when asked why there were so many paedophiles in Ballarat, he said it was just a tragic coincidence. Coincidence, my foot.Because there’s been no independent investigations, been no worrying about what has gone on over the last century in Australia. As we heard just before that Cardinal Pell said that when asked why there were so many paedophiles in Ballarat, he said it was just a tragic coincidence. Coincidence, my foot.
They clearly colluded and so it raises this very serious question about what is wrong with the thinking amongst the leaders in the church that they don’t want to know what has gone so seriously and tragically wrong that we have to come to the other side of the world to get answers.They clearly colluded and so it raises this very serious question about what is wrong with the thinking amongst the leaders in the church that they don’t want to know what has gone so seriously and tragically wrong that we have to come to the other side of the world to get answers.
We are wishing the pope intervenes here. The pope is willing to meet with us and just hear our concerns, hear the pain of so many thousands of victims in Australia and that this is shedding such bad light on the church and shedding such bad light on everybody who says that the Catholics are good.We are wishing the pope intervenes here. The pope is willing to meet with us and just hear our concerns, hear the pain of so many thousands of victims in Australia and that this is shedding such bad light on the church and shedding such bad light on everybody who says that the Catholics are good.
"Coincidence my foot, it was clearly systemic" says abuse survivor Stephen Wood re Cardinal Pell's evidence today pic.twitter.com/lRKVm5bRaa"Coincidence my foot, it was clearly systemic" says abuse survivor Stephen Wood re Cardinal Pell's evidence today pic.twitter.com/lRKVm5bRaa
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.43pm GMTat 10.43pm GMT
10.20pm GMT10.20pm GMT
22:2022:20
Ballarat was 'was one of the very worst places in Australia', Pell saysBallarat was 'was one of the very worst places in Australia', Pell says
Lawyer Jim Shaw says to Pell: “As we’ve found, Ballarat was, if you like, the very epicentre of clergy sexual abuse in the 70s, wasn’t it? That’s what we now know.”Lawyer Jim Shaw says to Pell: “As we’ve found, Ballarat was, if you like, the very epicentre of clergy sexual abuse in the 70s, wasn’t it? That’s what we now know.”
Pell agrees. “We now know it was one of the very worst places in Australia,” he says.Pell agrees. “We now know it was one of the very worst places in Australia,” he says.
Shaw: “You said also on the second day of your evidence on Tuesday, and we’ve heard this quote many times before, you are probably sick of hearing it: ‘[paedophile priest Gerald] Ridsdale was a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’ Do you remember that?”Shaw: “You said also on the second day of your evidence on Tuesday, and we’ve heard this quote many times before, you are probably sick of hearing it: ‘[paedophile priest Gerald] Ridsdale was a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’ Do you remember that?”
Pell: “I said nothing of the kind as I have endeavoured to explain this evening.”Pell: “I said nothing of the kind as I have endeavoured to explain this evening.”
Shaw: “I’m quoting you from the transcript, Cardinal.”Shaw: “I’m quoting you from the transcript, Cardinal.”
Pell: “I would like you to do so.”Pell: “I would like you to do so.”
Shaw: “I just did. ‘A sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’”Shaw: “I just did. ‘A sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’”
Pell: “That’s a selective quotation. I’ve explained that the use of the word ‘interested’ was a mistake and misleading and I tried to explain just what I was starting to say in a confused and inadequate way.”Pell: “That’s a selective quotation. I’ve explained that the use of the word ‘interested’ was a mistake and misleading and I tried to explain just what I was starting to say in a confused and inadequate way.”
And with that we’re taking a 40-minute break. Pell requested the 40 minutes, saying he wanted to return “as clear-headed as possible”.And with that we’re taking a 40-minute break. Pell requested the 40 minutes, saying he wanted to return “as clear-headed as possible”.
Melissa Davey with you here, you in can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.Melissa Davey with you here, you in can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.
Survivors are due to make some statements outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome shortly.Survivors are due to make some statements outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome shortly.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.01pm GMTat 11.01pm GMT
10.14pm GMT10.14pm GMT
22:1422:14
Pope Francis receives a daily summary of Pell's evidencePope Francis receives a daily summary of Pell's evidence
Pell tells lawyer Jim Shaw that he saw Pope Francis on Monday but that he did not discuss the commission hearings with him.Pell tells lawyer Jim Shaw that he saw Pope Francis on Monday but that he did not discuss the commission hearings with him.
Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”
Pell: “I arranged for him to have a summary of each day’s activities provided to him and to the secretary of state.”Pell: “I arranged for him to have a summary of each day’s activities provided to him and to the secretary of state.”
Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”
Pell: “No, not really, not at all.”Pell: “No, not really, not at all.”
Jim Shaw up for Andrew Collins and Stephen Woods who are both in the room in Rome (middle and right) #CARoyalComm pic.twitter.com/n8UBG3FpxKJim Shaw up for Andrew Collins and Stephen Woods who are both in the room in Rome (middle and right) #CARoyalComm pic.twitter.com/n8UBG3FpxK
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.23pm GMTat 10.23pm GMT
10.09pm GMT10.09pm GMT
22:0922:09
In 1991 the archdiocese of Ballarat heard from a mother who complained that Paul David Ryan tried to have a bath with her youngest son when he was 12 or 13.In 1991 the archdiocese of Ballarat heard from a mother who complained that Paul David Ryan tried to have a bath with her youngest son when he was 12 or 13.
Giving evidence to the royal commission last year, Australian army chaplain Monsignor Glynn Murphy, who was the bishop’s secretary at Ballarat between 1990 and 1997, gave evidence that the bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, subsequently told him that Ryan was to be sent to another parish, in Ararat.Giving evidence to the royal commission last year, Australian army chaplain Monsignor Glynn Murphy, who was the bishop’s secretary at Ballarat between 1990 and 1997, gave evidence that the bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, subsequently told him that Ryan was to be sent to another parish, in Ararat.
After a few months at Ararat, Ryan was sent to the US for treatment for his abusing. Under questioning from a lawyer, Pell says that although he was aware that Ryan was being sent to the US, he did not know that was to receive treatment for his behaviour towards young boys.After a few months at Ararat, Ryan was sent to the US for treatment for his abusing. Under questioning from a lawyer, Pell says that although he was aware that Ryan was being sent to the US, he did not know that was to receive treatment for his behaviour towards young boys.
“I would have accepted at face value the statement of the bishop to the clergy that he was in the States for study purposes,” Pell says.“I would have accepted at face value the statement of the bishop to the clergy that he was in the States for study purposes,” Pell says.
But Pell does say that he regarded Ryan “at least a potential problem”.But Pell does say that he regarded Ryan “at least a potential problem”.
He says: “I wasn’t aware that there was a peadophilia problem and I thought he was there basically to study.”He says: “I wasn’t aware that there was a peadophilia problem and I thought he was there basically to study.”
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at 10.22pm GMTat 10.22pm GMT
9.46pm GMT9.46pm GMT
21:4621:46
'The boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it' – Pell'The boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it' – Pell
Pell says when a schoolboy complained to him about paedophile Brother Dowlan, “He just mentioned it casually in conversation, he never asked me to do anything.”Pell says when a schoolboy complained to him about paedophile Brother Dowlan, “He just mentioned it casually in conversation, he never asked me to do anything.”
Lawyer: “You didn’t go straight to the school and say, ‘I’ve got this allegation, what’s going on?’”Lawyer: “You didn’t go straight to the school and say, ‘I’ve got this allegation, what’s going on?’”
Pell: “No, I didn’t. People had a different attitude then. There was no specifics about the activity, how serious it was and the boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it but just lamenting and mentioning it.”Pell: “No, I didn’t. People had a different attitude then. There was no specifics about the activity, how serious it was and the boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it but just lamenting and mentioning it.”
Justice McClellan interjects here. He says: “You and I have had this discussion on more than one occasion. Why was it necessary for people to ask you to do something rather than for you to accept the information and initiate your own response?”Justice McClellan interjects here. He says: “You and I have had this discussion on more than one occasion. Why was it necessary for people to ask you to do something rather than for you to accept the information and initiate your own response?”
Pell: “Obviously that is not the case and my responsibilities as an auxiliary bishop and director of an educational institution, an archbishop, I was more aware of those obligations in those situations than I was as a young cleric … But I don’t ... excuse my comparative lack of activity, the fact that I only went to the school chaplain and inquired what was the truth of these rumours.”Pell: “Obviously that is not the case and my responsibilities as an auxiliary bishop and director of an educational institution, an archbishop, I was more aware of those obligations in those situations than I was as a young cleric … But I don’t ... excuse my comparative lack of activity, the fact that I only went to the school chaplain and inquired what was the truth of these rumours.”
Tension in room rises as Pell says he did nothing about a 1973 complaint from a boy who told him Father Dowlan was misbehaving with boys.Tension in room rises as Pell says he did nothing about a 1973 complaint from a boy who told him Father Dowlan was misbehaving with boys.
Q: You could have done something... [to stop Dowlan's abuse] couldn't you?Cd. Pell: "I think that's a vast overstatement." #CARoyalCommQ: You could have done something... [to stop Dowlan's abuse] couldn't you?Cd. Pell: "I think that's a vast overstatement." #CARoyalComm
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