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| George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live | George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 10.20pm GMT | |
| 22:20 | |
| Ballarat was 'was one of the very worst places in Australia', Pell says | |
| Lawyer Jim Shaw says to Pell: “As we’ve found, Ballarat was, if you like, the very epicentre of clergy sexual abuse in the 70s, wasn’t it? That’s what we now know.” | |
| Pell agrees. “We now know it was one of the very worst places in Australia,” he says. | |
| Shaw: “You said also on the second day of your evidence on Tuesday, and we’ve heard this quote many times before, you are probably sick of hearing it: ‘[paedophile priest Gerald] Ridsdale was a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’ Do you remember that?” | |
| Pell: “I said nothing of the kind as I have endeavoured to explain this evening.” | |
| Shaw: “I’m quoting you from the transcript, Cardinal.” | |
| Pell: “I would like you to do so.” | |
| Shaw: “I just did. ‘A sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’” | |
| Pell: “That’s a selective quotation. I’ve explained that the use of the word ‘interested’ was a mistake and misleading and I tried to explain just what I was starting to say in a confused and inadequate way.” | |
| And with that we’re taking a 40-minute break. Pell requested the 40 minutes, saying he wanted to return “as clear-headed as possible”. | |
| Melissa Davey with you here, you in can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook. | |
| Survivors are due to make some statements outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome shortly. | |
| Updated | |
| at 10.24pm GMT | |
| 10.14pm GMT | |
| 22:14 | |
| Pope Francis receives a daily summary of Pell's evidence | |
| Pell tells lawyer Jim Shaw that he saw Pope Francis on Monday but that he did not discuss the commission hearings with him. | |
| Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?” | |
| Pell: “I arranged for him to have a summary of each day’s activities provided to him and to the secretary of state.” | |
| Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?” | |
| Pell: “No, not really, not at all.” | |
| Jim Shaw up for Andrew Collins and Stephen Woods who are both in the room in Rome (middle and right) #CARoyalComm pic.twitter.com/n8UBG3FpxK | |
| Updated | |
| at 10.23pm GMT | |
| 10.09pm GMT | |
| 22:09 | |
| In 1991 the archdiocese of Ballarat heard from a mother who complained that Paul David Ryan tried to have a bath with her youngest son when he was 12 or 13. | |
| Giving evidence to the royal commission last year, Australian army chaplain Monsignor Glynn Murphy, who was the bishop’s secretary at Ballarat between 1990 and 1997, gave evidence that the bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, subsequently told him that Ryan was to be sent to another parish, in Ararat. | |
| After a few months at Ararat, Ryan was sent to the US for treatment for his abusing. Under questioning from a lawyer, Pell says that although he was aware that Ryan was being sent to the US, he did not know that was to receive treatment for his behaviour towards young boys. | |
| “I would have accepted at face value the statement of the bishop to the clergy that he was in the States for study purposes,” Pell says. | |
| But Pell does say that he regarded Ryan “at least a potential problem”. | |
| He says: “I wasn’t aware that there was a peadophilia problem and I thought he was there basically to study.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 10.22pm GMT | |
| 9.46pm GMT | 9.46pm GMT |
| 21:46 | 21:46 |
| 'The boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it' – Pell | |
| Pell says when a schoolboy complained to him about paedophile Brother Dowlan, “He just mentioned it casually in conversation, he never asked me to do anything.” | |
| Lawyer: “You didn’t go straight to the school and say, ‘I’ve got this allegation, what’s going on?’” | |
| Pell: “No, I didn’t. People had a different attitude then. There was no specifics about the activity, how serious it was and the boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it but just lamenting and mentioning it.” | Pell: “No, I didn’t. People had a different attitude then. There was no specifics about the activity, how serious it was and the boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it but just lamenting and mentioning it.” |
| Justice McClellan interjects here. He says: “You and I have had this discussion on more than one occasion. Why was it necessary for people to ask you to do something rather than for you to accept the information and initiate your own response?” | Justice McClellan interjects here. He says: “You and I have had this discussion on more than one occasion. Why was it necessary for people to ask you to do something rather than for you to accept the information and initiate your own response?” |
| Pell: “Obviously that is not the case and my responsibilities as an auxiliary bishop and director of an educational institution, an archbishop, I was more aware of those obligations in those situations than I was as a young cleric … But I don’t ... excuse my comparative lack of activity, the fact that I only went to the school chaplain and inquired what was the truth of these rumours.” | |
| Tension in room rises as Pell says he did nothing about a 1973 complaint from a boy who told him Father Dowlan was misbehaving with boys. | Tension in room rises as Pell says he did nothing about a 1973 complaint from a boy who told him Father Dowlan was misbehaving with boys. |
| Q: You could have done something... [to stop Dowlan's abuse] couldn't you?Cd. Pell: "I think that's a vast overstatement." #CARoyalComm | Q: You could have done something... [to stop Dowlan's abuse] couldn't you?Cd. Pell: "I think that's a vast overstatement." #CARoyalComm |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.53pm GMT | |
| 9.38pm GMT | 9.38pm GMT |
| 21:38 | 21:38 |
| BWF’s lawyer tells Pell that BWF’s ex-wife also remembers her ex-husband telling her he went to Pell and told him about Dowlan’s abusing. | BWF’s lawyer tells Pell that BWF’s ex-wife also remembers her ex-husband telling her he went to Pell and told him about Dowlan’s abusing. |
| The lawyer points out BWF and his ex do not have a good relationship and she had no reason to help him, yet supported his evidence that he told Pell of the abuse. | The lawyer points out BWF and his ex do not have a good relationship and she had no reason to help him, yet supported his evidence that he told Pell of the abuse. |
| BWF “might have had a fantasy” that the conversation with him happened, Pell suggests. | BWF “might have had a fantasy” that the conversation with him happened, Pell suggests. |
| Cardinal Pell says Ballarat witness BWF might have had a fantasy. Denies he rejected a boy trying to inform him of a sexual assault. | Cardinal Pell says Ballarat witness BWF might have had a fantasy. Denies he rejected a boy trying to inform him of a sexual assault. |
| 9.30pm GMT | 9.30pm GMT |
| 21:30 | 21:30 |
| A lawyer representing a witness, identified only as BWF, tells Pell BWF’s “younger brother was beaten so seriously and so alarmingly and the injuries so apparent that his mother complained to the headmaster, Brother Nangle, about his treatment. Do you understand that to be the evidence?” | A lawyer representing a witness, identified only as BWF, tells Pell BWF’s “younger brother was beaten so seriously and so alarmingly and the injuries so apparent that his mother complained to the headmaster, Brother Nangle, about his treatment. Do you understand that to be the evidence?” |
| Pell: “I do. I do, very sad.” | Pell: “I do. I do, very sad.” |
| Lawyer: “The evidence also from BWF is that at 14 years of age he came to learn of the bashing and such was the knowledge of Brother Dowlan’s abuse of children and sexual abuse and molestation of children within the school population, the student population in particular, that he came to understand correctly, as it turned out, that his younger brother had been beaten and sexually abused, do you understand that to be his evidence?” | Lawyer: “The evidence also from BWF is that at 14 years of age he came to learn of the bashing and such was the knowledge of Brother Dowlan’s abuse of children and sexual abuse and molestation of children within the school population, the student population in particular, that he came to understand correctly, as it turned out, that his younger brother had been beaten and sexually abused, do you understand that to be his evidence?” |
| Pell: “I do.” | Pell: “I do.” |
| Lawyer: “Now he’s said to this royal commission ... ‘I was very upset about what happened so that same week during some free time, I went to the presbytery to seek out Father Pell, who was a well-known influential priest in the area. I was so nervous I just blurted out to Pell that Dowlan had beaten and molested BWG [his brother], and demanded to know what he, Pell, was going to do about it. Pell became angry, yelled at me, ‘Young man, how dare you knock at this door and make demands.’ We argued for a bit and told me to go away and shut the door on me.’” | Lawyer: “Now he’s said to this royal commission ... ‘I was very upset about what happened so that same week during some free time, I went to the presbytery to seek out Father Pell, who was a well-known influential priest in the area. I was so nervous I just blurted out to Pell that Dowlan had beaten and molested BWG [his brother], and demanded to know what he, Pell, was going to do about it. Pell became angry, yelled at me, ‘Young man, how dare you knock at this door and make demands.’ We argued for a bit and told me to go away and shut the door on me.’” |
| After some questioning Pell says: “Even if language that I was alleged to have used is ridiculous. The suggestion that I would speak like that to a young person in distress is absolutely false.” | After some questioning Pell says: “Even if language that I was alleged to have used is ridiculous. The suggestion that I would speak like that to a young person in distress is absolutely false.” |
| “It might have happened with some other individual, but it certainly didn’t happen with me.” | “It might have happened with some other individual, but it certainly didn’t happen with me.” |
| In 2015, Edward Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four Christian Brothers schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period. | In 2015, Edward Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four Christian Brothers schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period. |
| Cd. Pell denies the brother of a beaten, molested boy came to him at presbytery to complain. "It didn't happen with me." #CARoyalComm | Cd. Pell denies the brother of a beaten, molested boy came to him at presbytery to complain. "It didn't happen with me." #CARoyalComm |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.42pm GMT | at 9.42pm GMT |
| 9.20pm GMT | 9.20pm GMT |
| 21:20 | 21:20 |
| Michael Fitzgerald, the lawyer for abuse survivor Paul Levey, is now asking Pell questions. Like survivor David Ridsdale, Levey is present in the room with Pell in Rome. | |
| Levey was sexually abused by Father Gerald Ridsdale in Melbourne and Mortlake multiple times, and despite this abuse, was forced to live with Ridsdale when he was just 14 years old, subjecting him to further horrific and ongoing abuse. | Levey was sexually abused by Father Gerald Ridsdale in Melbourne and Mortlake multiple times, and despite this abuse, was forced to live with Ridsdale when he was just 14 years old, subjecting him to further horrific and ongoing abuse. |
| Levey made the trip to Rome despite suffering severe medical ailments that meant he required a 24-hour stopover for medications on his way. | Levey made the trip to Rome despite suffering severe medical ailments that meant he required a 24-hour stopover for medications on his way. |
| Pell tells Fitzgerald he was asked to appear in court with Gerald Ridsdale to perhaps lessen his jail time. | Pell tells Fitzgerald he was asked to appear in court with Gerald Ridsdale to perhaps lessen his jail time. |
| “I had some status as an auxiliary bishop and I was asked to appear with the ambition that this would lessen the term or punishment, perhaps, lessen his time in jail.” | “I had some status as an auxiliary bishop and I was asked to appear with the ambition that this would lessen the term or punishment, perhaps, lessen his time in jail.” |
| Cardinal Pell says he agreed to walk alongside pedophile Gerald Ridsdale to court so he could get a lesser jail term. | Cardinal Pell says he agreed to walk alongside pedophile Gerald Ridsdale to court so he could get a lesser jail term. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.03pm GMT | |
| 9.10pm GMT | 9.10pm GMT |
| 21:10 | 21:10 |
| Lawyer: “Now, it’s been publicly suggested in Australia that you are the target of a witch-hunt. You could not possibly share that view, could you?” | Lawyer: “Now, it’s been publicly suggested in Australia that you are the target of a witch-hunt. You could not possibly share that view, could you?” |
| Pell: “I have never expressed such a view but I must confess the idea has occurred to me.” | Pell: “I have never expressed such a view but I must confess the idea has occurred to me.” |
| Lawyer: “Do you feel victimised by the process, Cardinal?” | Lawyer: “Do you feel victimised by the process, Cardinal?” |
| Pell: “By the process itself, no, but I am very keen to clearly demonstrate that when false claims are made against me that I explain the grounds why they are false as I’ve done in this case.” | Pell: “By the process itself, no, but I am very keen to clearly demonstrate that when false claims are made against me that I explain the grounds why they are false as I’ve done in this case.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.17pm GMT | at 9.17pm GMT |
| 9.08pm GMT | 9.08pm GMT |
| 21:08 | 21:08 |
| The number of paedophiles in Ballarat was a 'disastrous coincidence', Pell says | The number of paedophiles in Ballarat was a 'disastrous coincidence', Pell says |
| A lawyer representing a child sex abuse victim identified only as BWE, as well as other survivors, asks Pell the reasons behind so many child sexual abusers aggregating in Ballarat East diocese in the 1970s. | A lawyer representing a child sex abuse victim identified only as BWE, as well as other survivors, asks Pell the reasons behind so many child sexual abusers aggregating in Ballarat East diocese in the 1970s. |
| Pell: “I think it was a ... disastrous coincidence.” | Pell: “I think it was a ... disastrous coincidence.” |
| Lawyer: “At the time, there were approximately four or five persons with very similar predilections, specifically a sexual attraction to boys of a similar age in the same suburb. You believe that’s a coincidence?” | Lawyer: “At the time, there were approximately four or five persons with very similar predilections, specifically a sexual attraction to boys of a similar age in the same suburb. You believe that’s a coincidence?” |
| Pell: “Yes, I do.” | Pell: “Yes, I do.” |
| Lawyer: “So you have turned your mind to this issue and your conclusion is that it’s an unfortunate coincidence?” | Lawyer: “So you have turned your mind to this issue and your conclusion is that it’s an unfortunate coincidence?” |
| Pell: “Yes, well, I couldn’t imagine the placements that were done there were made there by the leadership of the Christian Brothers and I think their leadership in this area was pretty disastrous but I wouldn’t for a minute think that they put all these people together for some specific purpose.” | Pell: “Yes, well, I couldn’t imagine the placements that were done there were made there by the leadership of the Christian Brothers and I think their leadership in this area was pretty disastrous but I wouldn’t for a minute think that they put all these people together for some specific purpose.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.17pm GMT | at 9.17pm GMT |
| 9.02pm GMT | 9.02pm GMT |
| 21:02 | 21:02 |
| The lawyer representing abuse survivor David Ridsdale, Stephen Odgers, concludes his cross-examination of Pell by saying David once told Pell: “F you, George, and everything you stand for.” | The lawyer representing abuse survivor David Ridsdale, Stephen Odgers, concludes his cross-examination of Pell by saying David once told Pell: “F you, George, and everything you stand for.” |
| Odgers: “I suggest that it was you, not him, who raised the possibility of financial assistance, that you asked him, ‘What would it take for you to keep quiet?’ And that he responded angrily to your suggestions saying, ‘F you, George, and everything you stand for.’ What do you say to that, Cardinal?” | Odgers: “I suggest that it was you, not him, who raised the possibility of financial assistance, that you asked him, ‘What would it take for you to keep quiet?’ And that he responded angrily to your suggestions saying, ‘F you, George, and everything you stand for.’ What do you say to that, Cardinal?” |
| Pell: “That certainly did not happen because I would certainly remember it. I don’t think in fact it’s ever happened to my face in 50 years of priesthood and secondly, I would have been absolutely shocked in that coming – being said to me by a person who phoned me as a friend. That part of the conversation I’m afraid to say that that’s just not true.” | Pell: “That certainly did not happen because I would certainly remember it. I don’t think in fact it’s ever happened to my face in 50 years of priesthood and secondly, I would have been absolutely shocked in that coming – being said to me by a person who phoned me as a friend. That part of the conversation I’m afraid to say that that’s just not true.” |
| Cd. Pell says Mr Ridsdale never rebuffed his alleged bribe by saying "f*ck you George" because "I would certainly remember it." #CARoyalComm | Cd. Pell says Mr Ridsdale never rebuffed his alleged bribe by saying "f*ck you George" because "I would certainly remember it." #CARoyalComm |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.18pm GMT | at 9.18pm GMT |
| 8.57pm GMT | 8.57pm GMT |
| 20:57 | 20:57 |
| Gerald Ridsdale did 'good things', Pell says | Gerald Ridsdale did 'good things', Pell says |
| Pell is being pressed by abuse survivor David Ridsdale’s lawyer about why he walked to court with the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale when he faced charges. | Pell is being pressed by abuse survivor David Ridsdale’s lawyer about why he walked to court with the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale when he faced charges. |
| Lawyer: “You walked to court with Gerald Ridsdale in May of 1993, didn’t you? | Lawyer: “You walked to court with Gerald Ridsdale in May of 1993, didn’t you? |
| Pell: “I did.” | Pell: “I did.” |
| Lawyer: “You knew Gerald Ridsdale was pleading guilty to a number of child abuse offences?” | Lawyer: “You knew Gerald Ridsdale was pleading guilty to a number of child abuse offences?” |
| Pell: “I certainly did.” | Pell: “I certainly did.” |
| Lawyer: “Yet, quite literally you stood beside him in public.” | Lawyer: “Yet, quite literally you stood beside him in public.” |
| Pell: “I had been asked either to appear – well certainly I was asked to appear in the court and/or give a reference. There were prolonged discussions with the lawyer. I made it quite clear that I was not going to dispute any of the allegations, that I was not going to imply any disrespect for the victims, the survivors, and I certainly was proposing to say that although I was unaware of much of what he’d done, that already it had done great damage to the church. | Pell: “I had been asked either to appear – well certainly I was asked to appear in the court and/or give a reference. There were prolonged discussions with the lawyer. I made it quite clear that I was not going to dispute any of the allegations, that I was not going to imply any disrespect for the victims, the survivors, and I certainly was proposing to say that although I was unaware of much of what he’d done, that already it had done great damage to the church. |
| “The only thing I would say was that as a priest he’d done other good things like burying the dead and celebrating the sacraments, etc. His lawyer was not willing to have me stand up in court and say that. He said, ‘No, we won’t call you. Would you walk to the court with him?’ And I said yes. I now realise that was a mistake.” | “The only thing I would say was that as a priest he’d done other good things like burying the dead and celebrating the sacraments, etc. His lawyer was not willing to have me stand up in court and say that. He said, ‘No, we won’t call you. Would you walk to the court with him?’ And I said yes. I now realise that was a mistake.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.05pm GMT | at 9.05pm GMT |
| 8.47pm GMT | 8.47pm GMT |
| 20:47 | 20:47 |
| Pell: 'I've never discouraged anyone from going to the police' | Pell: 'I've never discouraged anyone from going to the police' |
| Father Gerald Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 80s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat. He is now in prison. Ridsdale’s nephew, David Ridsdale, was one of his victims, and he told Pell he was being abused. David Ridsdale has maintained that when he told Pell about the abuse, Pell encouraged him to keep quiet about it, and that Pell asked him what it would take to keep him quiet. | Father Gerald Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 80s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat. He is now in prison. Ridsdale’s nephew, David Ridsdale, was one of his victims, and he told Pell he was being abused. David Ridsdale has maintained that when he told Pell about the abuse, Pell encouraged him to keep quiet about it, and that Pell asked him what it would take to keep him quiet. |
| Pell has just told the commission David Ridsdale’s account of events is “implausible”. | Pell has just told the commission David Ridsdale’s account of events is “implausible”. |
| It is implausible that I tried to bribe him for a number of reasons. The first of those was that I was aware that the police were already speaking to his uncle and so therefore I would have no motive in trying to prevent him going to the police. | It is implausible that I tried to bribe him for a number of reasons. The first of those was that I was aware that the police were already speaking to his uncle and so therefore I would have no motive in trying to prevent him going to the police. |
| I’ve never discouraged anyone from going to the police. It’s implausible because I was an auxiliary bishop and I had no access to money or – no access to significant resources. It’s implausible because I was an auxiliary bishop of Melbourne and this was a matter for the Ballarat diocese. And it’s implausible because, of course, the attempt to bribe someone is criminal. | I’ve never discouraged anyone from going to the police. It’s implausible because I was an auxiliary bishop and I had no access to money or – no access to significant resources. It’s implausible because I was an auxiliary bishop of Melbourne and this was a matter for the Ballarat diocese. And it’s implausible because, of course, the attempt to bribe someone is criminal. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.06pm GMT | at 9.06pm GMT |
| 8.38pm GMT | 8.38pm GMT |
| 20:38 | 20:38 |
| David Ridsdale was abused by his uncle, notorious Ballarat pedophile Father Gerald Ridsdale. Pell admits to the commission that the fact he accompanied Gerald Ridsdale to court may have been upsetting to David. | David Ridsdale was abused by his uncle, notorious Ballarat pedophile Father Gerald Ridsdale. Pell admits to the commission that the fact he accompanied Gerald Ridsdale to court may have been upsetting to David. |
| Lawyer: “You accept, I think, that he’s [David Ridsdale] always believed right from the day of the phone call that you tried to keep him quiet? | Lawyer: “You accept, I think, that he’s [David Ridsdale] always believed right from the day of the phone call that you tried to keep him quiet? |
| Pell: “I don’t know quite what he believed from that day but if he says that’s the case I’ve certainly got no proof to the contrary. I suspect the fact that I accompanied his uncle to the court would have been something that displeased and upset him.” | Pell: “I don’t know quite what he believed from that day but if he says that’s the case I’ve certainly got no proof to the contrary. I suspect the fact that I accompanied his uncle to the court would have been something that displeased and upset him.” |
| Pell: "I suspect the fact I accompanied his uncle to court is something that would have upset (David)" pic.twitter.com/wom2Vbyv6R | Pell: "I suspect the fact I accompanied his uncle to court is something that would have upset (David)" pic.twitter.com/wom2Vbyv6R |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.39pm GMT | at 8.39pm GMT |
| 8.35pm GMT | 8.35pm GMT |
| 20:35 | 20:35 |
| Pell now says he was ambushed by 60 Minutes presenter Richard Carleton in an interview with him in 2002. | Pell now says he was ambushed by 60 Minutes presenter Richard Carleton in an interview with him in 2002. |
| “I was ambushed on television,” Pell says. | “I was ambushed on television,” Pell says. |
| Lawyer: “You told Richard Carleton that you thought the conversation [with David Ridsdale about his being abused] occurred after Gerald Ridsdale was in jail, didn’t you?” | Lawyer: “You told Richard Carleton that you thought the conversation [with David Ridsdale about his being abused] occurred after Gerald Ridsdale was in jail, didn’t you?” |
| Pell: “Yes, I had no prior notice that this matter was going to be brought up. My recall is not perfect and there are some details there which some suggestions which I think proved not to be true and Id on’t know whether it was so much a statement as a question asking just what was the sequence of events at that time.” | Pell: “Yes, I had no prior notice that this matter was going to be brought up. My recall is not perfect and there are some details there which some suggestions which I think proved not to be true and Id on’t know whether it was so much a statement as a question asking just what was the sequence of events at that time.” |
| Lawyer: “And you accept that the conversation occurred before he was even charged?” | Lawyer: “And you accept that the conversation occurred before he was even charged?” |
| Pell: “Yes, I now know that’s the case.” | Pell: “Yes, I now know that’s the case.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.49pm GMT | at 8.49pm GMT |