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| George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live | George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 8.38pm GMT | |
| 20:38 | |
| David Ridsdale was abused by his uncle, notorious Ballarat pedophile Father Gerald Ridsdale. Pell admits to the commission that the fact he accompanied Gerald Ridsdale to court may have been upsetting to David. | |
| Lawyer: “You accept, I think, that he’s [David Ridsdale] always believed right from the day of the phone call that you tried to keep him quiet? | |
| Pell: “I don’t know quite what he believed from that day but if he says that’s the case I’ve certainly got no proof to the contrary. I suspect the fact that I accompanied his uncle to the court would have been something that displeased and upset him.” | |
| Pell: "I suspect the fact I accompanied his uncle to court is something that would have upset (David)" pic.twitter.com/wom2Vbyv6R | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.39pm GMT | |
| 8.35pm GMT | |
| 20:35 | |
| Pell now says he was ambushed by 60 Minutes presenter Richard Carleton in an interview with him in 2002. | |
| “I was ambushed on television,” Pell says. | |
| Lawyer; “You told Richard Carleton that you thought the conversation [with David Ridsdale about his being abused] occurred after Gerald Ridsdale was in jail, didn’t you?” | |
| Pell: “Yes, I had no prior notice that this matter was going to be brought up. My recall is not perfect and there are some details there which some suggestions which I think proved not to be true and Id on’t know whether it was so much a statement as a question asking just what was the sequence of events at that time.” | |
| Lawyer: “And you accept that the conversation occurred before he was even charged?” | |
| Pell: “Yes, I now know that’s the case.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.39pm GMT | |
| 8.30pm GMT | |
| 20:30 | |
| David Ridsdale’s lawyer is asking Pell what he did to help Ridsdale after he called Pell to say that he was being abused by his uncle, Father Gerald Ridsdale. Pell says that because he regarded David Ridsdale as a friend, he was “more relaxed and loose” in his approach to providing help to him. | |
| Lawyer: “Did you ever provide any help to David?” | |
| Pell: “No, I don’t think I did.” | |
| Lawyer: “Did you ever organise any help for him?” | |
| Pell: “No, because I didn’t - I phoned his home on at least one occasion to try to speak with him. He was not there and I was ringing up to see how he was going and what I could do. I don’t think I heard from him again at that time stage.” | |
| Lawyer: “Did you seek to obtain any form of counselling for him?” | |
| Pell: “That was certainly one of the possibilities that went through my mind and if he had wanted to ask me to do that I certainly would have been happy to do so.” | |
| Lawyer: “I’m sorry, I thought you’d agree with me that you didn’t dispute that he expressed a desire for something like a private process to address his needs? | |
| Pell: “I don’t dispute that. I have no recollection of him asking me to set it up.” | |
| Lawyer: “And you didn’t feel that you should make any - take any steps to attempt to set it up?” | |
| Pell: “No, I didn’t because I was a Melbourne auxiliary bishop and the problem had occurred and was going to be dealt with in the Ballarat diocese. If I had been a little bit more careful, I would have suggested to David that I was the Melbourne official and therefore it would be much better if he dealt directly with Ballarat. I regarded him as a friend and so I was a bit more relaxed and loose in my approach to him and in how I could help him because I regarded him as a friend.” | |
| Lawyer: “But in fact, Cardinal, you didn’t do anything for him, isn’t that right?” | |
| Pell: “I spoke to him at some length. He did not ask me to do anything. If he had asked me to do any one or a number of things, I certainly would have done so.” | |
| Pell admits he made no request for financial help for David Ridsdale despite Ridsdale's request @australian #auspol @KKeneally @vanOnselenP | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.34pm GMT | |
| 8.22pm GMT | |
| 20:22 | |
| Pell: "I regret the choice of words. It was badly expressed." | |
| Lawyer: Now, you deny that you tried to persuade David Ridsdale to keep quiet about the abuse of him by Gerald Ridsdale? | |
| Pell: “Well, I’m not even sure what keeping quiet means. I do dispute it, but for a man who was expressing a preference for a Church hearing rather than going to the police, I wouldn’t have had any dispute with him on that score, although I have never impeded or discouraged anyone from going to the police.” | |
| Lawyer: “In your evidence on Tuesday, you said, ‘I had no reason to turn my mind to the extent of the evils that [Gerald] Ridsdale had perpetrated’.” Do you remember saying that?” | |
| Pell: “No, I don’t.” | |
| Lawyer: “You said on Tuesday, and I can take you to the transcript if necessary, that Father Ridsdale interfering with children at Inglewood was “A sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me”. Do you remember saying that?” | |
| Pell: “I remember messing up this sequence completely. I regret the choice of words. I was very confused, I responded poorly.” | |
| 8.16pm GMT | |
| 20:16 | |
| The commission begins | |
| In May, the commission heard allegations that Pell encouraged child sex abuse victim David Ridsdale, who is the nephew and victim of Gerald Francis Ridsdale, to keep quiet about his abuse. | |
| The commission also previously heard evidence which suggested Pell was involved in the decision to move Ridsdale between parishes once the abuse came to light, including parishes in Mildura, Swan Hill, Warrnambool, Apollo Bay, Ballarat and Mortlake. | |
| David Ridsdale’s lawyer is now questioning Pell. | |
| Lawyer: “I appear for David Ridsdale and I want to ask you some questions about a telephone conversation you had with him in early 1993 when he told you that he had been sexually abused by his uncle, the priest Father Gerald Ridsdale. I understand you accept that you had that telephone conversation but you do not accept the account of the details of that conversation given by David Ridsdale.” | |
| Pell: “We differ on some substantial matters”. | |
| Lawyer: “I understand. And particularly you don’t accept that you said to him ‘What would it take for you to keep quiet?’” | |
| Pell: “No, I certainly don’t accept that.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.28pm GMT | |
| 8.06pm GMT | |
| 20:06 | |
| Survivors of child sexual abuse have held a press conference in Rome, with the final day of evidence minutes away from starting. They’ve confirmed they are meeting with Pell tomorrow. It’s unclear whether their requested meeting with Pope Francis has been confirmed though. | |
| Breaking: abuse survivors to meet with pontifical commission tomorrow and #Pell. Waiting to confirm meeting with pope | |
| Ballarat survivors confirm George Pell meeting tomorrow. and possibly with Pope Francis on Friday | |
| Survivors will now meet with Cardinal George #Pell "on their terms" tomorrow - after "restrictions were lifted". pic.twitter.com/twTM1o3ixG | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.28pm GMT | |
| 7.57pm GMT | 7.57pm GMT |
| 19:57 | 19:57 |
| I’ve just spoken to Leonie Sheedy, head of the Care Leavers Australia Network, which represents survivors of child sexual abuse is foster homes and orphanages. She’s been protesting outside the commission in Sydney along with other survivors for every day of the evidence. She tells me: | I’ve just spoken to Leonie Sheedy, head of the Care Leavers Australia Network, which represents survivors of child sexual abuse is foster homes and orphanages. She’s been protesting outside the commission in Sydney along with other survivors for every day of the evidence. She tells me: |
| I think Pell’s lost all credibility, and he’s done the damage himself. The evidence indicates he’s lied. How can a man with the highest credentials in the Catholic church not be aware of those pedophile priests and continue put others under a series of buses, including Ronald Mulkearns, who is dying, and Archbishop Frank Little, who is dead. | I think Pell’s lost all credibility, and he’s done the damage himself. The evidence indicates he’s lied. How can a man with the highest credentials in the Catholic church not be aware of those pedophile priests and continue put others under a series of buses, including Ronald Mulkearns, who is dying, and Archbishop Frank Little, who is dead. |
| Furness and McClellan, you could see, were exasperated by the dishonesty. We’d like to hear now from the personal secretaries to Pell and others in the church at the time this abuse was occurring. If people were apparently withholding information from people like Pell, we need to hear from the gatekeepers of that information.” | Furness and McClellan, you could see, were exasperated by the dishonesty. We’d like to hear now from the personal secretaries to Pell and others in the church at the time this abuse was occurring. If people were apparently withholding information from people like Pell, we need to hear from the gatekeepers of that information.” |
| Robert 70yo was in 2 #NSW #BoysHomes #National #Redress Now #PrimeMinister #Turnbull Patron of CLAN Remember I #Vote pic.twitter.com/C7DKZF8jJH | Robert 70yo was in 2 #NSW #BoysHomes #National #Redress Now #PrimeMinister #Turnbull Patron of CLAN Remember I #Vote pic.twitter.com/C7DKZF8jJH |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.00pm GMT | at 8.00pm GMT |
| 7.43pm GMT | 7.43pm GMT |
| 19:43 | 19:43 |
| Guardian cartoonist First Dog on the Moon has provided his take on the evidence so far here. He says: | Guardian cartoonist First Dog on the Moon has provided his take on the evidence so far here. He says: |
| While the rape and torture of hundreds of children swirled around him, a monstrous wailing storm of blood and terror and unimaginable sin ... Pell heard nothing. | While the rape and torture of hundreds of children swirled around him, a monstrous wailing storm of blood and terror and unimaginable sin ... Pell heard nothing. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.55pm GMT | at 7.55pm GMT |
| 7.42pm GMT | 7.42pm GMT |
| 19:42 | 19:42 |
| It seems survivors at the hearings in Rome are about to make a statement ... I’ll keep you posted if and when this happens. | It seems survivors at the hearings in Rome are about to make a statement ... I’ll keep you posted if and when this happens. |
| Our producer @EmilyBryan on the lookout as we wait for a statement from survivors ahead of #pell hearing pic.twitter.com/WqsJdZvNui | Our producer @EmilyBryan on the lookout as we wait for a statement from survivors ahead of #pell hearing pic.twitter.com/WqsJdZvNui |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.55pm GMT | at 7.55pm GMT |
| 7.36pm GMT | 7.36pm GMT |
| 19:36 | 19:36 |
| If Pope Francis wants to retain his reputation as the people’s pope he must force Cardinal George Pell to either resign or retire, writes Joanne McCarthy for Fairfax. Read her full piece here, and in the meantime here’s an excerpt: | |
| Cardinal George Pell has to resign. Before the week is out, and on the back of his evidence to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, the cardinal must go, and Pope Francis must be involved. | Cardinal George Pell has to resign. Before the week is out, and on the back of his evidence to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, the cardinal must go, and Pope Francis must be involved. |
| If not, the Catholic Church in Australia is going to bleed numbers indefinitely. The Pope’s statements about child sexual abuse will be seen as nothing but more words from a church whose standing has been trashed on the issue, and shockingly so over the past three days. | If not, the Catholic Church in Australia is going to bleed numbers indefinitely. The Pope’s statements about child sexual abuse will be seen as nothing but more words from a church whose standing has been trashed on the issue, and shockingly so over the past three days. |
| We’re about 20 minutes away from the commission commencing. | We’re about 20 minutes away from the commission commencing. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.30pm GMT | |
| 7.36pm GMT | 7.36pm GMT |
| 19:36 | 19:36 |
| Guardian writer David Marr has analysed yesterday’s evidence: | |
| When Pell began to sketch the outlines of a grubby conspiracy by the Catholic Education Office to keep him in the dark in order to protect the inaction of Little, both the chair of the commission, Peter McClellan, and counsel assisting Gail Furness SC expressed frank disbelief. | When Pell began to sketch the outlines of a grubby conspiracy by the Catholic Education Office to keep him in the dark in order to protect the inaction of Little, both the chair of the commission, Peter McClellan, and counsel assisting Gail Furness SC expressed frank disbelief. |
| Pell denied concocting his evidence to deflect blame from his own inaction. He insisted he had done his duty – his whole duty – by taking the Searson case to Little. “I was not obliged to do more than that.” | Pell denied concocting his evidence to deflect blame from his own inaction. He insisted he had done his duty – his whole duty – by taking the Searson case to Little. “I was not obliged to do more than that.” |
| He cut a wretched figure in the witness box. After a couple of hours of interrogation he began to look like one of those Francis Bacon portraits of beefy men under torture. On that grey screen, the only colour was his face. | He cut a wretched figure in the witness box. After a couple of hours of interrogation he began to look like one of those Francis Bacon portraits of beefy men under torture. On that grey screen, the only colour was his face. |
| Everyone in the upper reaches of the Melbourne church failed those children. But not until the documents were marshalled today by the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse was the scale of the failure – or perhaps its stench – so apparent. | Everyone in the upper reaches of the Melbourne church failed those children. But not until the documents were marshalled today by the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse was the scale of the failure – or perhaps its stench – so apparent. |
| Marr’s piece on day three is here, while you can read his analysis of day two here and day one here. | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.30pm GMT | |
| 7.36pm GMT | 7.36pm GMT |
| 19:36 | 19:36 |
| Melissa Davey with you here as we enter the fourth and final day of evidence from Cardinal George Pell before Australia’s royal commission into institution responses into child sexual abuse. | Melissa Davey with you here as we enter the fourth and final day of evidence from Cardinal George Pell before Australia’s royal commission into institution responses into child sexual abuse. |
| It’s fair to say Pell has not come off well in the proceedings so far. Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, has twice accused Pell of giving evidence that was “implausible”. | It’s fair to say Pell has not come off well in the proceedings so far. Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, has twice accused Pell of giving evidence that was “implausible”. |
| It was implausible that he did not know that notorious pedophile priests, Gerald Ridsdale and Peter Searson were abusing children while everyone else around him did, as was his theory that the Catholic Education Office told senior figures in the church about Searson’s abuse but did not tell him, she said. | It was implausible that he did not know that notorious pedophile priests, Gerald Ridsdale and Peter Searson were abusing children while everyone else around him did, as was his theory that the Catholic Education Office told senior figures in the church about Searson’s abuse but did not tell him, she said. |
| Pell says the education office kept him in the dark because they thought he would ask “difficult questions” if the abuse was revealed to him. Justice Peter McClellan told Pell that made no sense. | Pell says the education office kept him in the dark because they thought he would ask “difficult questions” if the abuse was revealed to him. Justice Peter McClellan told Pell that made no sense. |
| If the education office wanted to avoid questions being asked, they wouldn’t have told several senior church figures about the abuse, or provided Pell with a list of complaints about Searson’s behaviour, including that he tortured animals in front of children, the commission has heard. | |
| Pell said this wasn’t enough evidence for him to become aware of the full extent of Searson’s abusive nature, or to remove him. | Pell said this wasn’t enough evidence for him to become aware of the full extent of Searson’s abusive nature, or to remove him. |
| So frustrated have the survivors of child sexual abuse become with Pell’s evidence that they’ve called for a meeting with Pope Francis. | So frustrated have the survivors of child sexual abuse become with Pell’s evidence that they’ve called for a meeting with Pope Francis. |
| McClellan and Furness have now finished their questioning. With day four about to begin in half an hour, Pell will face questions from lawyers representing victims and the church. | McClellan and Furness have now finished their questioning. With day four about to begin in half an hour, Pell will face questions from lawyers representing victims and the church. |
| You can share your thoughts with me onTwitter or on Facebook as we go. | |
| Updated | |
| at 8.32pm GMT |