This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.

You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2016/mar/02/cardinal-george-pell-testifies-to-the-child-sexual-abuse-royal-commission-from-rome-day-three-live

The article has changed 12 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.

Version 8 Version 9
Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live Cardinal George Pell agrees to meet survivors after completing child sexual abuse royal commission evidence – live
(35 minutes later)
2.04am GMT
02:04
Hanscombe insists it is plausible that her client, Timothy Green, did tell Pell that the abuse by Dowlan needed to be addressed.
Hanscombe; “You already knew that there had been problems of a sexual nature with Dowlan at St Pat’s, you’d heard it from one or two priests. You’d been concerned enough to tell the school chaplain and you’d heard it from somebody else, not Mr Green who you have described as ‘a good and honest lad’. So you had that knowledge already. That meant that what Mr Green blurted out to you was not only inherently implausible, but it was likely to be true. That’s right, isn’t it?”
Pell: “No, I don’t think that follows at all. If I’d been clear in my mind at that stage when this incident is alleged to have happened and I had actually heard the accusation, that would have been significant for me and I would have accepted it and done something about it.”
2.00am GMT
02:00
Pell says if abuse survivor, Timothy Green, had come to him to tell him to take action against the pedophile Father Dowlan, he would have acted upon that information.
Pell tells Green’s lawyer, Dr Hanscombe, that Green must be “mistaken”.
Pell: “Could I just say... see, the possibility is that over this passage of time Mr Green’s simply mistaken. For example, he has me coming to Villa in 1971 and ‘72, or’72. I was not in Ballarat in 1971 or ‘72 and my diaries, I have no recollection of going to Villa in those years and my diaries do not show me going to Villa in those years. So as he seems to have been mistaken on that particular point, there is also the possibility he is in error in his recollections.”
Some in Rome are shaking heads. Survivor Peter Blenkiron appears agitated, raising his hand as #Pell says witnesses were mistaken
Updated
at 2.00am GMT
1.55am GMT
01:55
So we are into the 5th hour of evidence, it is nearly 3 am in Rome. This has to be very taxing for all involved, including the witness.
Head count in Rome - 2.48am and still about 70 people in the room. Cardinal #Pell will be able to step away from the table in 10mins
Lawyers for other 'interested parties' are now asking Cardinal Pell questions. They've estimated they'll need an hour each. Hence 4th day.
1.49am GMT
01:49
Dr Kristine Hanscombe, a lawyer representing Timothy Green, a survivor of notorious Ballarat paedophile Father Dowlan, is now asking Pell questions. Hanscombe represents seven survivors in total.
Green has previously given evidence to the commission that he told Pell to “do something about” Dowlan.
Pell tells Hanscombe: “I’m not necessarily accepting that his evidence is accurate. It is uncorroborated and I have no recollection of it even after hearing his particular description of the unusual conversation where he only spoke to me, he said, with his back to me.
“I’d just mention that the evidence of Mr Green is uncorroborated by the gentleman who he said was with him who did not recall it and suggest perhaps he didn’t hear it. I have got no recollection of the incident at all.”
Hanscombe: “I know that, you’ve said that several times. When you say the gentleman who was with him, you’re talking about BWD who gave a witness said saying he couldn’t recall it, but he wasn’t saying it didn’t happen – is that who you’re talking about?”
Pell: “I think that would be correct.”
Updated
at 2.00am GMT
1.40am GMT
01:40
Pell says "Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia"
Pell says the Melbourne Response, which he established, “is one reason why the Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia”.
The Melbourne Response, implemented in 1996 by the Catholic archdiocese of Melbourne to investigate child sex abuse claims internally, has been repeatedly criticised by abuse victims for being inadequate in previous commission hearings.
Loud mirth here in Rome as Pell says Melbourne Response is reason why Catholic church ''is among the safest institutions in Australia''
1.36am GMT
01:36
From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome, more on the statement from Pell’s office.
Cardinal Pell’s office has released a statement saying he would be “happy” to meet privately with survivors from the Ballarat and Melbourne cases in Rome. The cardinal said he told survivors that they could meet on Thursday morning or afternoon after he completed giving evidence and that the meetings could be held here at the Hotel Quirinale and not the Vatican.
It comes a few hours after abuse survivors said they had no interest in seeing Pell and announced that they requested a formal meeting with Pope Francis. The statement from Pell’s office goes on to say:
Cardinal Pell hopes that these meetings might be helpful and contribute to healing, and he is happy to meet survivors either individually or in smaller groups, as he has done many times in the past. The Cardinal would like to be able to listen to survivors and private meetings offer a good opportunity for this, rather than larger meetings where not everyone may be able to tell their story and emotions can run high.
Survivors are welcome to bring a person to support them at the meetings, but because of the private and pastoral nature of these meetings it would not be appropriate for media or legal representatives to attend.
Cardinal Pell has also advised survivors that he would be happy to assist with requests to meet Pope Francis, but has to rely on the officials responsible for considering these requests. Yesterday Cardinal Pell, in response to a request from survivors, arranged for a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors to meet with survivors on Thursday morning.
Survivors who have requested meetings will be contacted again later today (Wednesday) to confirm their interest in meeting with Cardinal Pell and to arrange times for the meetings.
Updated
at 1.46am GMT
1.34am GMT
01:34
McClellan says to Pell if there was any other organisation with more than 200 branch offices, engaging with tens of thousands of people, you would have a significant middle management structure in that organisation. Pell has repeatedly said that it was up to the upper echelons of the church to handle and respond to child sexual abuse allegations.
Pell: “We are not like that. There is a direct relationship between the bishop and the priests, obviously there were intermediate unofficial groupings like the regions, but I am not in favour of the imposition of a corporate model ... That is not our model. We have a very flat model of organisation.”
McClellan:would it be time to consider if the structure that worked for the Holy Roman empire is no longer appropriate for the church today?
Updated
at 1.36am GMT
1.30am GMT
01:30
Pell says survivors can bring support person to meeting- but private nature means no media, legal reps @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/Wy3EGMk7Dx
1.29am GMT1.29am GMT
01:2901:29
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, closes her questioningCounsel assisting, Gail Furness, closes her questioning
Furness finishes by asking Pell; “Do you accept any responsibility for a failure to act upon credible information which was indicative of risk and instead requiring proof of allegations and the involvement of police before being willing to act?”Furness finishes by asking Pell; “Do you accept any responsibility for a failure to act upon credible information which was indicative of risk and instead requiring proof of allegations and the involvement of police before being willing to act?”
Pell: “I would, ah, accept that the executive authorities did - were deficient in that way and as for myself, I perhaps might have pushed a bit harder but I certainly went to the man who had the last word, explicitly asked him what the situation was and was told that there was not sufficient evidence to remove [abusive priest Peter Searson]. Pell: “I would, ah, accept that the executive authorities did – were deficient in that way and, as for myself, I perhaps might have pushed a bit harder but I certainly went to the man who had the last word, explicitly asked him what the situation was and was told that there was not sufficient evidence to remove [abusive priest Peter Searson].
“I did not query that, and I believe I did not have sufficient evidence to query it so, in those terms I believe that I have acted responsibly.” “I did not query that, and I believe I did not have sufficient evidence to query it so, in those terms, I believe that I have acted responsibly.”
Furness: “Cardinal, is there anything that you did as auxiliary Bishop that touched upon priests and allegations,rumours or concerns of child sexual abuse by those priests, that you consider wanting or deficient in any way?” Furness: “Cardinal, is there anything that you did as auxiliary bishop that touched upon priests and allegations, rumours or concerns of child sexual abuse by those priests, that you consider wanting or deficient in any way?”
Pell: “I think the matters you raised about ascribing resignations to ill health, that is one area of regret. Other than that, I don’t believe there is.”Pell: “I think the matters you raised about ascribing resignations to ill health, that is one area of regret. Other than that, I don’t believe there is.”
Furness: “Thank you Cardinal. I have nothing further.”Furness: “Thank you Cardinal. I have nothing further.”
Chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, is now asking closing questions of his own. And lawyers might have questions to ask of Pell too. The chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, is now asking closing questions of his own. And lawyers might have questions to ask of Pell too.
Pell says his only area of regret as Auxiliary Bishop was ascribing resignations to ill-health when they were re sexual abuse @australianPell says his only area of regret as Auxiliary Bishop was ascribing resignations to ill-health when they were re sexual abuse @australian
Updated
at 1.33am GMT
1.25am GMT1.25am GMT
01:2501:25
More on conservative News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of the royal commission, this time from the Australian;More on conservative News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of the royal commission, this time from the Australian;
Columnist Andrew Bolt has stepped back from his harsh criticism of Cardinal George Pell in his most recent column, after regretting he had “joined the pack” of critics.Columnist Andrew Bolt has stepped back from his harsh criticism of Cardinal George Pell in his most recent column, after regretting he had “joined the pack” of critics.
In his syndicated column for News Corp Australia today, Bolt, who has secured an exclusive interview with Cardinal Pell at the conclusion of his testimony, wrote Pell had “uttered words that will stain his reputation forever” and the “rightly aggressive” royal commission now “seems poised to consider whether this prince of the Catholic church is a liar”.In his syndicated column for News Corp Australia today, Bolt, who has secured an exclusive interview with Cardinal Pell at the conclusion of his testimony, wrote Pell had “uttered words that will stain his reputation forever” and the “rightly aggressive” royal commission now “seems poised to consider whether this prince of the Catholic church is a liar”.
This morning on Sky News, for which Mr Bolt is reporting as a special contributor in Rome, he said he felt “embarrassed because I think I’ve joined the pack attacking Pell”.This morning on Sky News, for which Mr Bolt is reporting as a special contributor in Rome, he said he felt “embarrassed because I think I’ve joined the pack attacking Pell”.
Full story here.Full story here.
UpdatedUpdated
at 1.26am GMTat 1.26am GMT
1.21am GMT1.21am GMT
01:2101:21
A meeting was held to "identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”A meeting was held to "identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”
In December 1993 a meeting was held by senior figures in the church to “identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”, Furness says. Pell was present at that meeting.In December 1993 a meeting was held by senior figures in the church to “identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”, Furness says. Pell was present at that meeting.
Furness: “You recall at this time, 1993, that that was an active issue in the church, how to protect its assets if it is successfully sued in child sexual abuse claims?”Furness: “You recall at this time, 1993, that that was an active issue in the church, how to protect its assets if it is successfully sued in child sexual abuse claims?”
Pell: “... that certainly wasn’t the only consideration but that certainly was a consideration.”Pell: “... that certainly wasn’t the only consideration but that certainly was a consideration.”
Furness: “This item in the minutes suggests that, at that stage, all that was being considered was how to protect diocese assets in the effect of successful litigation?”Furness: “This item in the minutes suggests that, at that stage, all that was being considered was how to protect diocese assets in the effect of successful litigation?”
Pell: “I don’t think that is a justified conclusion, either about myself or the other participates but it was very important to know where we were about the money.”Pell: “I don’t think that is a justified conclusion, either about myself or the other participates but it was very important to know where we were about the money.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 1.23am GMTat 1.23am GMT
1.14am GMT1.14am GMT
01:1401:14
Guardian Australia’s media correspondent, Amanda Meade, has filed this piece on News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of Pell’s evidence;Guardian Australia’s media correspondent, Amanda Meade, has filed this piece on News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of Pell’s evidence;
News Corp columnist Andrew Bolt, a staunch defender of Cardinal George Pell, has declared the Catholic cleric’s evidence at the royal commission on Tuesday “disastrous” and the case against him “very damning”.News Corp columnist Andrew Bolt, a staunch defender of Cardinal George Pell, has declared the Catholic cleric’s evidence at the royal commission on Tuesday “disastrous” and the case against him “very damning”.
In a dramatic reversal of his consistent defence of Pell, the Herald Sun commentator now says the Vatican’s finance chief was either lying or “dangerously indifferent” to the fact children were being raped.In a dramatic reversal of his consistent defence of Pell, the Herald Sun commentator now says the Vatican’s finance chief was either lying or “dangerously indifferent” to the fact children were being raped.
On Tuesday afternoon Bolt stunned viewers when he told Sky News Australia that he had just witnessed Pell’s cross-examination in the hearing room in Rome and it was “terrible” and his image was forever damaged.On Tuesday afternoon Bolt stunned viewers when he told Sky News Australia that he had just witnessed Pell’s cross-examination in the hearing room in Rome and it was “terrible” and his image was forever damaged.
Read Amanda’s full piece here and follow her on Twitter here.Read Amanda’s full piece here and follow her on Twitter here.
1.06am GMT
01:06
A Catholic priest, Father David Daniel, who repeatedly sexually abused children throughout his 20-year career as a priest, also resigned “for health reasons”, Furness tells the commission.
Daniel was charged with 18 offences and was, in 2000, deemed a serious sexual offender under the Crimes Act.
Pell tells the commission; “I can’t remember when I heard about Daniel’s behaviour, but it is likely that I heard about it before this resignation.”
Updated
at 1.07am GMT
1.02am GMT
01:02
The commission has resumed and Furness has turned her attention to prominent Melbourne Catholic priest Father Desmond Gannon, who has been sentenced five times for sexually abusing children.
Gannon admitted to sexual abuse yet his resignation was publicly attributed to health reasons, Furness says.
Furness: “Were you informed in your role as auxiliary bishop and effectively consultor or adviser of the reason why Gannon had resigned?”
Pell “Yes, I think I would have been.”
Furness: “Were you aware at that time that his resignation either was going to or had been publicly attributed to health reasons?”
Pell: “Probably, yes.”
Furness: “Did you have the position or capacity to influence whether or not that was going to happen if it was beforehand? That is, that he be permitted to retire on those grounds and that the resignation be publicly attributed to health?”
Pell: “No, I don’t remember being consulted about it. If I had of, been consulted I would have had the capacity to object.”
Updated
at 1.05am GMT
12.52am GMT
00:52
The evidence this morning has focused largely on what Cardinal George Pell knew of the offending of Father Peter Searson.
Countless complaints had been made to senior figures within the church about Searson, the commission heard, and Pell too had been presented with a list of grievances about Searson’s behaviour, which included bringing a gun to school and torturing animals in front of children.
I wrote about Searson in November. Here is an excerpt from that piece;
A victim of child sexual abuse at the hands of a Melbourne priest, Peter Searson, has told a royal commission that he now sits at home in the dark with the door locked because it is the only place he feels safe.
The victim, identified only as BVD, said the abuse had begun when he was about nine years old in 1978, while he was serving as an altar boy at the Our Lady of Carmel parish in Sunbury. Searson was the parish priest and BVD was ordered to mow his lawn and wash his car.
“He was a very scary man and and very intimidating, with a gaze that would just pierce you like he was looking right through you,” BVD told the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse in Melbourne on Tuesday.
“I was very submissive as a child and I was very scared of Searson.”
Searson would order BVD to come inside with him every Saturday after he had finished washing his car, he said, and the priest’s behaviour progressed from drying BVD’s genitals to raping him.
“That happened nearly every Saturday for six months,” BVD said, breaking down into tears. “Searson threatened me, telling me I would go to hell if I told anyone. I was terrified. The only person I was more scared of than Searson was my mother. There was no way I could tell her what was happening.”
Melissa Davey with you here. We’re about 10 minutes away from the commission recommencing after a short break. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.
Updated
at 12.56am GMT
12.38am GMT
00:38
Paul Karp
I’ve been reading Italian papers to find out how Pell’s testimony has been reported. Corriere della Sera leads with Pell’s admission the Catholic church “has committed many great errors ... [it] caused serious harms in many places and disappointed the faithful”.
. @Corriereit leads w #Pell admission Catholic church "caused serious harms in many places & disappointed faithful" pic.twitter.com/Vc8YTNaHFW
Public broadcaster Rai says Pell met the Pope in the morning and before the evening of his second day of hearings, and Pell has declared he has the Pope’s “full support”.
Public broadcaster Rai says #Pell met Pope day of 2nd hearings, and has declared he has the Pope's "full support" pic.twitter.com/On3ydCS8HT
Corriere della Sera says the most embarrassing moment was when Pell admitted he knew Leo Fitzgerald used to swim nude with students and kiss them, but the general consensus was that he was eccentric but fairly harmless.
. @Corriereit says most embarrassing when #Pell admitted he knew Leo Fitzgerald wld swim nude w students &kiss them pic.twitter.com/MHDgZansyc
Corriere della Sera tweet picks up on Pell’s statement that the Ridsdale case “was not of great interest to me”.
Corriere della Sera leads with reaction to Pell saying Ridsdale case “was not of great interest to me”, reports boos/hisses and exclamations of derision. And Il Post mentions the Guardian’s coverage as an example of an international newspaper describing the hearing as historic, and that Guardian wrote “this is the first time a case that highlights the responsibility of the church for covering up paedophile.
Il Post notes @GuardianAus report this is closest issue of church responsibility for pedophilia has been to Vatican pic.twitter.com/kpw59HSoFA
12.24am GMT
00:24
A short adjournment
As the commission says it will sit for an extra hour today.
The evidence will resume in 20 minutes or so.
Updated
at 12.49am GMT
12.23am GMT
00:23
Pell tells the commission that he knew Father Searson was a serious problem. He has been presented with a list of concerns about Searson’s behaviour by the Catholic Education Office, which included a report that he had abused animals in front of children.
“Yes, I knew he was a serious problem,” Pell says.
Furness: “You knew he was such a serious problem that he shouldn’t be a priest, didn’t you?”
Pell: “No, I didn’t come to that conclusion. The position I accepted was the official position given to me that we did not have sufficient evidence to remove him.”
Q: "you knew (Searson) was such a serious problem that he shouldn't be a priest, didn't you?Cd. Pell: "No..."
Updated
at 12.49am GMT
12.20am GMT
00:20
McClellan tells Pell abuse survivors don't always go to police, but that doesn't mean their allegations of abuse are not true
Pell tells the commission that if the police are unable to proceed because of lack of a lack of evidence, that is a significant factor “colouring what the church authorities might decide to do.”
Justice Peter McClellan will have none of it.
McClellan: “Cardinal, as you know, the royal commission has spoken now to almost 5,000 survivors. You understand that?”
Pell: “I do.”
McClellan: “I assume you are aware, that a great many people who have been affected by the conduct of others, sexual or physical assaults, do not wish to involve themselves in the criminal justice process. You understand that?”
Pell: “I do.”
McClellan: “But you understand that, for many of those people, the allegations that they would make are absolutely true.”
Pell: “That’s correct.”
McClellan: “Well, is it not the case that when the church has allegations before it, that the church had a responsibility itself to deal with those allegations irrespective of whether the police are able to take action because they have people who are prepared to give evidence in a court?”
Pell: “Because they’re not prepared to, yes.”
Commissioner: doesn't the church have responsibility to deal with allegations, regardless of whether police will proceed? @australian
Updated
at 12.48am GMT
12.15am GMT
00:15
Elle Hunt
ABC reporter Danny Tran is in Ballarat for the royal commission. He says Gail Furness’ description of Pell’s evidence and reasons for being deceived as “completely implausible” was met with applause.
Applause from Ballarat as Gail Furness says Cardinal Pell's evidence &reasons for being deceived are "completely implausible" @abcnewsMelb
Cardinal Pell rejects Gail Furness' comment that the evidence he's given was designed to deflect blame from himself @abcnewsMelb
Tran reported heated scenes earlier.
Groans & catcalls in Ballarat town hall as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm the Education Office deceived him about Searson @abcnewsMelb
Laughter in Ballarat as Cardinal Pell tells the #CARoyalComm he was "the new boy on the block" who was "known to be outspoken" @abcnewsMelb
12.10am GMT
00:10
Some more analysis from Rome from Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner.
We have not seen a fiery, aggressive Pell here in the Verdi Room, even though he is often described that way. But it is clear that the cardinal from Australia is becoming more assertive in his testimony.
On the first day, he acknowledged hearing references to abuse that he never followed up. Then, on Tuesday, he insisted he never heard about suspicions that Gerald Ridsdale was a serial pedophile.
Now he has gone a step further: saying he was purposely not told about abuse because his fellow officials knew that he would shake-up the status quo. Gail Furness, it is fair to say, believes none of it.
12.08am GMT
00:08
Elle Hunt
On Sunday, Miranda Devine published a column in the Daily Telegraph, criticising the “unrestrained vitriol spewed” at Pell, “the first [churchman] to respond with a plan to help victims”.Clare Linane of Ballarat published an open letter in response on her personal Facebook page.
She wrote that her husband, brother and cousin were sexually abused by Brother Edward Dowlan; her husband is currently in Rome.
Her post, in which she responds to Devine’s column point by point, is worth reading in full, but here’s an excerpt:
[On] your concern about George Pell given his frail health. Here I will lift my hands and declare my total lack of objectivity. Miranda, after being abused at 11, the way my husband was treated by the representatives of the church was heart-breaking, and was an abuse all over again. He went to Towards Healing for help in 2006; they funded approximately 10 counselling sessions then refused to fund anymore. They wanted him to ‘come to the table’ to settle this matter. In other words, they wanted him to accept a payout, sign a confidentiality agreement, and go away.
This left him with no choice but to pursue legal avenues; a cruel, frustrating process that nearly killed him. At the absolute lowest point in his life, where he had lost his ability to work, lost most of his assets, lost half of his family, lost his business, lost his sense of self-esteem, and battled suicidal thoughts daily, the representatives of the church – the church of which George Pell is effectively Australian CEO – demonstrated no compassion whatsoever. We were tiny ants taking on an elephant; we would pay $5,000 to have a QC represent us, only to have the church postpone on a technicality on the day. Not once, but three times they did this to us. I often said to my husband, “I’m sure they think if they keep drawing this out you’ll eventually crack and just top yourself”. He didn’t.
I know that he is just one of hundreds who were treated with total disregard for their well-being by church representatives; not just 40 years ago, but recently, whilst George Pell was in charge, and therefore ultimately accountable. So Miranda, no; I am not worried about George’s ‘frail health’ whilst he testifies. I’m sure he will be fine. I’m far more worried about my husband and friends.
Linane concludes by saying that the royal commission is not about Pell, or the survivors as individuals: it is about a commitment to action by the church to implement, among other things, a national redress scheme and program of education and peer support.
Her post has received considerable coverage but Devine has not publicly responded, though she did refer to the responses to her column, some of which were “bile-flecked”, in quoting a since-deleted tweet.
This is what it's come to. Get Pell. And this is one of the least bile-flecked responses to my column. https://t.co/aKHyZYA8LD
She also tweeted a link to “some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept” care of the Catholic Weekly.
Some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept - behind the Royal Commission headlines @catholic_weekly https://t.co/pGFNzEkqoE
Updated
at 12.47am GMT