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| Cardinal George Pell agrees to meet survivors after completing child sexual abuse royal commission evidence – as it happened | |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 2.57am GMT | |
| 02:57 | |
| A recap of the day's evidence | |
| Melissa Davey with you here, closing off our live blog for today. Thanks for joining me. I’ll be with you again from 6.30am tomorrow and, in the meantime, you can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook. | |
| Updated | |
| at 3.05am GMT | |
| 2.37am GMT | 2.37am GMT |
| 02:37 | 02:37 |
| Some comments from abuse survivor Philip Nagle to reporters in Rome; | Some comments from abuse survivor Philip Nagle to reporters in Rome; |
| This model is a proven failure in protecting children against sexual abuse by their clergy. We want to know who we can talk to about getting this changed. Pope Francis, please help us. | This model is a proven failure in protecting children against sexual abuse by their clergy. We want to know who we can talk to about getting this changed. Pope Francis, please help us. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.39am GMT | at 2.39am GMT |
| 2.34am GMT | 2.34am GMT |
| 02:34 | 02:34 |
| Some video from earlier in the day, courtesy of ABC’s The Drum. | Some video from earlier in the day, courtesy of ABC’s The Drum. |
| George #Pell says he "turned the situation right around" re sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. More on #thedrum https://t.co/FrOMe1Ux9b | George #Pell says he "turned the situation right around" re sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. More on #thedrum https://t.co/FrOMe1Ux9b |
| 2.28am GMT | 2.28am GMT |
| 02:28 | 02:28 |
| Survivors give a press conference in Rome following third day of evidence | Survivors give a press conference in Rome following third day of evidence |
| Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said “George Pell has consistently pointed the blame elsewhere, accused everybody of being a liar and deceitful”. “If he is telling the truth that would make him an extraordinarily ignorant man,” Ridsdale said.While he said he would welcome a meeting with Pell if it was “on a level playing field,” his and other survivors’ primary concern was getting a meeting with Pope Francis, he said. “That’s the one we’re interested in, because as we continually say, it’s a global process and the structure has to change from the top and George Pell has made it very clear he does not have the ability, the power or the interest to do any of those things so we need to speak to the boss.” | Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said “George Pell has consistently pointed the blame elsewhere, accused everybody of being a liar and deceitful”. “If he is telling the truth that would make him an extraordinarily ignorant man,” Ridsdale said.While he said he would welcome a meeting with Pell if it was “on a level playing field,” his and other survivors’ primary concern was getting a meeting with Pope Francis, he said. “That’s the one we’re interested in, because as we continually say, it’s a global process and the structure has to change from the top and George Pell has made it very clear he does not have the ability, the power or the interest to do any of those things so we need to speak to the boss.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.39am GMT | at 2.39am GMT |
| 2.07am GMT | 2.07am GMT |
| 02:07 | 02:07 |
| The commission adjourns for day three | The commission adjourns for day three |
| Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, says tomorrow the commission will begin at 7am instead of 8am Australian eastern daylight savings time and go through until 1pm. | Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, says tomorrow the commission will begin at 7am instead of 8am Australian eastern daylight savings time and go through until 1pm. |
| Lawyers representing the victims and the church clearly have several hours worth of questioning to ask Pell, now that Furness and Justice Peter McClellan have concluded their own questioning. | Lawyers representing the victims and the church clearly have several hours worth of questioning to ask Pell, now that Furness and Justice Peter McClellan have concluded their own questioning. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.12am GMT | at 2.12am GMT |
| 2.04am GMT | 2.04am GMT |
| 02:04 | 02:04 |
| Hanscombe insists it is plausible that her client, Timothy Green, did tell Pell that the abuse by Dowlan needed to be addressed. | Hanscombe insists it is plausible that her client, Timothy Green, did tell Pell that the abuse by Dowlan needed to be addressed. |
| Hanscombe: “You already knew that there had been problems of a sexual nature with Dowlan at St Pat’s, you’d heard it from one or two priests. You’d been concerned enough to tell the school chaplain and you’d heard it from somebody else, not Mr Green who you have described as ‘a good and honest lad’. So you had that knowledge already. That meant that what Mr Green blurted out to you was not only inherently implausible but it was likely to be true. That’s right, isn’t it?” | Hanscombe: “You already knew that there had been problems of a sexual nature with Dowlan at St Pat’s, you’d heard it from one or two priests. You’d been concerned enough to tell the school chaplain and you’d heard it from somebody else, not Mr Green who you have described as ‘a good and honest lad’. So you had that knowledge already. That meant that what Mr Green blurted out to you was not only inherently implausible but it was likely to be true. That’s right, isn’t it?” |
| Pell: “No, I don’t think that follows at all. If I’d been clear in my mind at that stage when this incident is alleged to have happened, and I had actually heard the accusation, that would have been significant for me and I would have accepted it and done something about it.” | Pell: “No, I don’t think that follows at all. If I’d been clear in my mind at that stage when this incident is alleged to have happened, and I had actually heard the accusation, that would have been significant for me and I would have accepted it and done something about it.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.12am GMT | at 2.12am GMT |
| 2.00am GMT | 2.00am GMT |
| 02:00 | 02:00 |
| Pell says if abuse survivor Timothy Green had come to him to tell him to take action against the paedophile Father Dowlan, he would have acted upon that information. | Pell says if abuse survivor Timothy Green had come to him to tell him to take action against the paedophile Father Dowlan, he would have acted upon that information. |
| Pell tells Green’s lawyer, Dr Hanscombe, that Green must be “mistaken”. | Pell tells Green’s lawyer, Dr Hanscombe, that Green must be “mistaken”. |
| Pell: “Could I just say ... see, the possibility is that over this passage of time Mr Green’s simply mistaken. For example, he has me coming to Villa in 1971 and 72, or 72. I was not in Ballarat in 1971 or 72 and my diaries, I have no recollection of going to Villa in those years and my diaries do not show me going to Villa in those years. So as he seems to have been mistaken on that particular point, there is also the possibility he is in error in his recollections.” | Pell: “Could I just say ... see, the possibility is that over this passage of time Mr Green’s simply mistaken. For example, he has me coming to Villa in 1971 and 72, or 72. I was not in Ballarat in 1971 or 72 and my diaries, I have no recollection of going to Villa in those years and my diaries do not show me going to Villa in those years. So as he seems to have been mistaken on that particular point, there is also the possibility he is in error in his recollections.” |
| Some in Rome are shaking heads. Survivor Peter Blenkiron appears agitated, raising his hand as #Pell says witnesses were mistaken | Some in Rome are shaking heads. Survivor Peter Blenkiron appears agitated, raising his hand as #Pell says witnesses were mistaken |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.40am GMT | |
| 1.55am GMT | 1.55am GMT |
| 01:55 | 01:55 |
| So we are into the 5th hour of evidence, it is nearly 3 am in Rome. This has to be very taxing for all involved, including the witness. | So we are into the 5th hour of evidence, it is nearly 3 am in Rome. This has to be very taxing for all involved, including the witness. |
| Head count in Rome - 2.48am and still about 70 people in the room. Cardinal #Pell will be able to step away from the table in 10mins | Head count in Rome - 2.48am and still about 70 people in the room. Cardinal #Pell will be able to step away from the table in 10mins |
| Lawyers for other 'interested parties' are now asking Cardinal Pell questions. They've estimated they'll need an hour each. Hence 4th day. | Lawyers for other 'interested parties' are now asking Cardinal Pell questions. They've estimated they'll need an hour each. Hence 4th day. |
| 1.49am GMT | 1.49am GMT |
| 01:49 | 01:49 |
| Dr Kristine Hanscombe, a lawyer representing Timothy Green, a survivor of notorious Ballarat paedophile Father Dowlan, is now asking Pell questions. Hanscombe represents seven survivors in total. | Dr Kristine Hanscombe, a lawyer representing Timothy Green, a survivor of notorious Ballarat paedophile Father Dowlan, is now asking Pell questions. Hanscombe represents seven survivors in total. |
| Green has previously given evidence to the commission that he told Pell to “do something about” Dowlan. | Green has previously given evidence to the commission that he told Pell to “do something about” Dowlan. |
| Pell tells Hanscombe: “I’m not necessarily accepting that his evidence is accurate. It is uncorroborated and I have no recollection of it even after hearing his particular description of the unusual conversation where he only spoke to me, he said, with his back to me. | Pell tells Hanscombe: “I’m not necessarily accepting that his evidence is accurate. It is uncorroborated and I have no recollection of it even after hearing his particular description of the unusual conversation where he only spoke to me, he said, with his back to me. |
| “I’d just mention that the evidence of Mr Green is uncorroborated by the gentleman who he said was with him who did not recall it and suggest perhaps he didn’t hear it. I have got no recollection of the incident at all.” | “I’d just mention that the evidence of Mr Green is uncorroborated by the gentleman who he said was with him who did not recall it and suggest perhaps he didn’t hear it. I have got no recollection of the incident at all.” |
| Hanscombe: “I know that, you’ve said that several times. When you say the gentleman who was with him, you’re talking about BWD who gave a witness said saying he couldn’t recall it, but he wasn’t saying it didn’t happen – is that who you’re talking about?” | Hanscombe: “I know that, you’ve said that several times. When you say the gentleman who was with him, you’re talking about BWD who gave a witness said saying he couldn’t recall it, but he wasn’t saying it didn’t happen – is that who you’re talking about?” |
| Pell: “I think that would be correct.” | Pell: “I think that would be correct.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.00am GMT | at 2.00am GMT |
| 1.40am GMT | 1.40am GMT |
| 01:40 | 01:40 |
| Pell says "Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia" | Pell says "Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia" |
| Pell says the Melbourne Response, which he established, “is one reason why the Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia”. | Pell says the Melbourne Response, which he established, “is one reason why the Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia”. |
| The Melbourne Response, implemented in 1996 by the Catholic archdiocese of Melbourne to investigate child sex abuse claims internally, has been repeatedly criticised by abuse victims for being inadequate in previous commission hearings. | The Melbourne Response, implemented in 1996 by the Catholic archdiocese of Melbourne to investigate child sex abuse claims internally, has been repeatedly criticised by abuse victims for being inadequate in previous commission hearings. |
| Loud mirth here in Rome as Pell says Melbourne Response is reason why Catholic church ''is among the safest institutions in Australia'' | Loud mirth here in Rome as Pell says Melbourne Response is reason why Catholic church ''is among the safest institutions in Australia'' |
| 1.36am GMT | 1.36am GMT |
| 01:36 | 01:36 |
| From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome, more on the statement from Pell’s office. | From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome, more on the statement from Pell’s office. |
| Cardinal Pell’s office has released a statement saying he would be “happy” to meet privately with survivors from the Ballarat and Melbourne cases in Rome. The cardinal said he told survivors that they could meet on Thursday morning or afternoon after he completed giving evidence and that the meetings could be held here at the Hotel Quirinale and not the Vatican. | Cardinal Pell’s office has released a statement saying he would be “happy” to meet privately with survivors from the Ballarat and Melbourne cases in Rome. The cardinal said he told survivors that they could meet on Thursday morning or afternoon after he completed giving evidence and that the meetings could be held here at the Hotel Quirinale and not the Vatican. |
| It comes a few hours after abuse survivors said they had no interest in seeing Pell and announced that they requested a formal meeting with Pope Francis. The statement from Pell’s office goes on to say: | It comes a few hours after abuse survivors said they had no interest in seeing Pell and announced that they requested a formal meeting with Pope Francis. The statement from Pell’s office goes on to say: |
| Cardinal Pell hopes that these meetings might be helpful and contribute to healing, and he is happy to meet survivors either individually or in smaller groups, as he has done many times in the past. The Cardinal would like to be able to listen to survivors and private meetings offer a good opportunity for this, rather than larger meetings where not everyone may be able to tell their story and emotions can run high. | Cardinal Pell hopes that these meetings might be helpful and contribute to healing, and he is happy to meet survivors either individually or in smaller groups, as he has done many times in the past. The Cardinal would like to be able to listen to survivors and private meetings offer a good opportunity for this, rather than larger meetings where not everyone may be able to tell their story and emotions can run high. |
| Survivors are welcome to bring a person to support them at the meetings, but because of the private and pastoral nature of these meetings it would not be appropriate for media or legal representatives to attend. | Survivors are welcome to bring a person to support them at the meetings, but because of the private and pastoral nature of these meetings it would not be appropriate for media or legal representatives to attend. |
| Cardinal Pell has also advised survivors that he would be happy to assist with requests to meet Pope Francis, but has to rely on the officials responsible for considering these requests. Yesterday Cardinal Pell, in response to a request from survivors, arranged for a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors to meet with survivors on Thursday morning. | Cardinal Pell has also advised survivors that he would be happy to assist with requests to meet Pope Francis, but has to rely on the officials responsible for considering these requests. Yesterday Cardinal Pell, in response to a request from survivors, arranged for a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors to meet with survivors on Thursday morning. |
| Survivors who have requested meetings will be contacted again later today (Wednesday) to confirm their interest in meeting with Cardinal Pell and to arrange times for the meetings. | Survivors who have requested meetings will be contacted again later today (Wednesday) to confirm their interest in meeting with Cardinal Pell and to arrange times for the meetings. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.46am GMT | at 1.46am GMT |
| 1.34am GMT | 1.34am GMT |
| 01:34 | 01:34 |
| McClellan says to Pell if there was any other organisation with more than 200 branch offices, engaging with tens of thousands of people, you would have a significant middle management structure in that organisation. Pell has repeatedly said that it was up to the upper echelons of the church to handle and respond to child sexual abuse allegations. | McClellan says to Pell if there was any other organisation with more than 200 branch offices, engaging with tens of thousands of people, you would have a significant middle management structure in that organisation. Pell has repeatedly said that it was up to the upper echelons of the church to handle and respond to child sexual abuse allegations. |
| Pell: “We are not like that. There is a direct relationship between the bishop and the priests, obviously there were intermediate unofficial groupings like the regions, but I am not in favour of the imposition of a corporate model ... That is not our model. We have a very flat model of organisation.” | Pell: “We are not like that. There is a direct relationship between the bishop and the priests, obviously there were intermediate unofficial groupings like the regions, but I am not in favour of the imposition of a corporate model ... That is not our model. We have a very flat model of organisation.” |
| McClellan:would it be time to consider if the structure that worked for the Holy Roman empire is no longer appropriate for the church today? | McClellan:would it be time to consider if the structure that worked for the Holy Roman empire is no longer appropriate for the church today? |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.36am GMT | at 1.36am GMT |
| 1.30am GMT | 1.30am GMT |
| 01:30 | 01:30 |
| Pell says survivors can bring support person to meeting- but private nature means no media, legal reps @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/Wy3EGMk7Dx | Pell says survivors can bring support person to meeting- but private nature means no media, legal reps @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/Wy3EGMk7Dx |
| 1.29am GMT | 1.29am GMT |
| 01:29 | 01:29 |
| Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, closes her questioning | Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, closes her questioning |
| Furness finishes by asking Pell; “Do you accept any responsibility for a failure to act upon credible information which was indicative of risk and instead requiring proof of allegations and the involvement of police before being willing to act?” | Furness finishes by asking Pell; “Do you accept any responsibility for a failure to act upon credible information which was indicative of risk and instead requiring proof of allegations and the involvement of police before being willing to act?” |
| Pell: “I would, ah, accept that the executive authorities did – were deficient in that way and, as for myself, I perhaps might have pushed a bit harder but I certainly went to the man who had the last word, explicitly asked him what the situation was and was told that there was not sufficient evidence to remove [abusive priest Peter Searson]. | Pell: “I would, ah, accept that the executive authorities did – were deficient in that way and, as for myself, I perhaps might have pushed a bit harder but I certainly went to the man who had the last word, explicitly asked him what the situation was and was told that there was not sufficient evidence to remove [abusive priest Peter Searson]. |
| “I did not query that, and I believe I did not have sufficient evidence to query it so, in those terms, I believe that I have acted responsibly.” | “I did not query that, and I believe I did not have sufficient evidence to query it so, in those terms, I believe that I have acted responsibly.” |
| Furness: “Cardinal, is there anything that you did as auxiliary bishop that touched upon priests and allegations, rumours or concerns of child sexual abuse by those priests, that you consider wanting or deficient in any way?” | Furness: “Cardinal, is there anything that you did as auxiliary bishop that touched upon priests and allegations, rumours or concerns of child sexual abuse by those priests, that you consider wanting or deficient in any way?” |
| Pell: “I think the matters you raised about ascribing resignations to ill health, that is one area of regret. Other than that, I don’t believe there is.” | Pell: “I think the matters you raised about ascribing resignations to ill health, that is one area of regret. Other than that, I don’t believe there is.” |
| Furness: “Thank you Cardinal. I have nothing further.” | Furness: “Thank you Cardinal. I have nothing further.” |
| The chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, is now asking closing questions of his own. And lawyers might have questions to ask of Pell too. | The chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, is now asking closing questions of his own. And lawyers might have questions to ask of Pell too. |
| Pell says his only area of regret as Auxiliary Bishop was ascribing resignations to ill-health when they were re sexual abuse @australian | Pell says his only area of regret as Auxiliary Bishop was ascribing resignations to ill-health when they were re sexual abuse @australian |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.33am GMT | at 1.33am GMT |
| 1.25am GMT | 1.25am GMT |
| 01:25 | 01:25 |
| More on conservative News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of the royal commission, this time from the Australian; | More on conservative News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of the royal commission, this time from the Australian; |
| Columnist Andrew Bolt has stepped back from his harsh criticism of Cardinal George Pell in his most recent column, after regretting he had “joined the pack” of critics. | Columnist Andrew Bolt has stepped back from his harsh criticism of Cardinal George Pell in his most recent column, after regretting he had “joined the pack” of critics. |
| In his syndicated column for News Corp Australia today, Bolt, who has secured an exclusive interview with Cardinal Pell at the conclusion of his testimony, wrote Pell had “uttered words that will stain his reputation forever” and the “rightly aggressive” royal commission now “seems poised to consider whether this prince of the Catholic church is a liar”. | In his syndicated column for News Corp Australia today, Bolt, who has secured an exclusive interview with Cardinal Pell at the conclusion of his testimony, wrote Pell had “uttered words that will stain his reputation forever” and the “rightly aggressive” royal commission now “seems poised to consider whether this prince of the Catholic church is a liar”. |
| This morning on Sky News, for which Mr Bolt is reporting as a special contributor in Rome, he said he felt “embarrassed because I think I’ve joined the pack attacking Pell”. | This morning on Sky News, for which Mr Bolt is reporting as a special contributor in Rome, he said he felt “embarrassed because I think I’ve joined the pack attacking Pell”. |
| Full story here. | Full story here. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.26am GMT | at 1.26am GMT |
| 1.21am GMT | 1.21am GMT |
| 01:21 | 01:21 |
| A meeting was held to "identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse” | A meeting was held to "identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse” |
| In December 1993 a meeting was held by senior figures in the church to “identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”, Furness says. Pell was present at that meeting. | In December 1993 a meeting was held by senior figures in the church to “identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”, Furness says. Pell was present at that meeting. |
| Furness: “You recall at this time, 1993, that that was an active issue in the church, how to protect its assets if it is successfully sued in child sexual abuse claims?” | Furness: “You recall at this time, 1993, that that was an active issue in the church, how to protect its assets if it is successfully sued in child sexual abuse claims?” |
| Pell: “... that certainly wasn’t the only consideration but that certainly was a consideration.” | Pell: “... that certainly wasn’t the only consideration but that certainly was a consideration.” |
| Furness: “This item in the minutes suggests that, at that stage, all that was being considered was how to protect diocese assets in the effect of successful litigation?” | Furness: “This item in the minutes suggests that, at that stage, all that was being considered was how to protect diocese assets in the effect of successful litigation?” |
| Pell: “I don’t think that is a justified conclusion, either about myself or the other participates but it was very important to know where we were about the money.” | Pell: “I don’t think that is a justified conclusion, either about myself or the other participates but it was very important to know where we were about the money.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.23am GMT | at 1.23am GMT |
| 1.14am GMT | 1.14am GMT |
| 01:14 | 01:14 |
| Guardian Australia’s media correspondent, Amanda Meade, has filed this piece on News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of Pell’s evidence; | Guardian Australia’s media correspondent, Amanda Meade, has filed this piece on News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of Pell’s evidence; |
| News Corp columnist Andrew Bolt, a staunch defender of Cardinal George Pell, has declared the Catholic cleric’s evidence at the royal commission on Tuesday “disastrous” and the case against him “very damning”. | News Corp columnist Andrew Bolt, a staunch defender of Cardinal George Pell, has declared the Catholic cleric’s evidence at the royal commission on Tuesday “disastrous” and the case against him “very damning”. |
| In a dramatic reversal of his consistent defence of Pell, the Herald Sun commentator now says the Vatican’s finance chief was either lying or “dangerously indifferent” to the fact children were being raped. | In a dramatic reversal of his consistent defence of Pell, the Herald Sun commentator now says the Vatican’s finance chief was either lying or “dangerously indifferent” to the fact children were being raped. |
| On Tuesday afternoon Bolt stunned viewers when he told Sky News Australia that he had just witnessed Pell’s cross-examination in the hearing room in Rome and it was “terrible” and his image was forever damaged. | On Tuesday afternoon Bolt stunned viewers when he told Sky News Australia that he had just witnessed Pell’s cross-examination in the hearing room in Rome and it was “terrible” and his image was forever damaged. |
| Read Amanda’s full piece here and follow her on Twitter here. | Read Amanda’s full piece here and follow her on Twitter here. |