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Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live Cardinal George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day three – live
(35 minutes later)
9.57pm GMT
21:57
Pell says when he was auxiliary bishop, he appointed Denis Hart as his vicar general and that “it was a verysuccessful appointment”.
“I think his work as vicar-general, especially in the matter of sexual abuse,constituted a very, very significant advance and improvement. I knew him a bit, I spoke to him off and on, I encouraged him. Father Hart was a formidably good administrator.”
9.50pm GMT
21:50
Furness is now questioning Pell about a parish priest, Peter Searson. The royal commission heard last year that complaints about Searson, made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never been acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little.
Complaints came in from parents daily and ranged from concerns about Searson sexually abusing children to his bizarre way of running confession by having children sit on his lap. He also displayed strange behaviours such as carrying a gun to school and cruelty towards animals.
Pell says that Little; “had a lot of information which he never made available to me” about Searson.
“I discovered that somebody had prepared a list of infractions, a page and a half. I was never informed that this had been prepared and I was never informed about the variety and the seriousness of the problems in Sunbury.”
Searson died in 2009 without ever facing charges. The commission has previously heard he abused children in parishes and schools across three districts over more than a decade.
George Pell: "I didn't feel any need to request access to files" (of priests in his region) when auxiliary priest of Melbourne
Updated
at 9.51pm GMT
9.42pm GMT
21:42
The commission hears that Archbishop Little, who knew priests were abusing children but moved them between parishes rather than report them to police or remove them from the church, resigned four years early.
Furness: “Now Archbishop Little ultimately resigned on grounds of ill health, didn’t he?”
Pell: “That was what was said and he certainly had four or five different health problems.”
Furness: “When you say that was said, are you suggesting that there were other reasons for his resignation other than what was said?”
Pell: “I can’t give any book, chapter and verse on this but he resigned four years early and I suspect his situation would have paralleled that of Bishop Mulkearns, who resigned early, perhaps eight years early, and has pointed out that one of the reasons for this early resignation was problems with the treatment, the way he handled paedophilia cases.”
Furness: “Bishop Mulkearns gave evidence that he decided for himself he wasn’t handling those matters well and therefore resigned. Was it the case with Archbishop Little that he decided for himself or that it was suggested to him that his handling of those complaints was deficient?”
Pell: “Both the bishops would have had to offer their resignation. As I said, I can’t give book, chapter and verse but it would not surprise me if Archbishop Little was requested to put in his resignation. But he certainly was sick.”
Cardinal Pell says Archbishop Little allowed paeodophile priests inc. Peter Searson to remain in place and then be transferred #CARoyalComm
#Pell says he was no friend of Arch Little, and didn't agree with how he handled things. #CARoyalComm
Updated
at 9.48pm GMT
9.36pm GMT
21:36
'Archbishop Little on some occasions did not act when he should have'
Furness is now turning her attention to Archbishop Frank Little.
The commission has previously heard evidence that Little, who held the position of Melbourne archbishop from 1974 to 1996, kept secret files full of “letters of complaint from all sorts of people, from parents especially, from offended people”.
Pell criticises Little, telling Furness; “Archbishop Little on some occasions did not act when he should have and certainly did not make appropriate information available to the personnel advisory board on some occasions.”
Furness: “Now are there other aspects of his handling such complaints that you’re critical of? You’ve described the provision of information.”
Pell: “Yes, allowing people to remain in place and sometimes transferring such people.”
Updated
at 9.47pm GMT
9.29pm GMT
21:29
Meanwhile, here are the front pages of the Victorian newspapers today.
Two strong front pages from Melbourne's leading newspapers. #Pell pic.twitter.com/NTrTZHPa5u
Updated
at 9.46pm GMT
9.27pm GMT
21:27
Pell is now referring to canon law, those laws which are enforced by the hierarchical authorities of the church. He’s detailing what canon law said about the authority certain roles within the church held.
“I think the first, and I’m not trying to be flippant, the first point of the canon law makes is, I think, that ultimately the auxiliary bishop has no authority to take decisions against the will of the archbishop,” Pell says.
As an aside - Pell regularly referencing Canon Law doesn't serve him well.
Cd. Pell. says "advising on personnel" is not mentioned in the role of Consultors in canon law. #CARoyalComm
Updated
at 9.46pm GMT
9.23pm GMT9.23pm GMT
21:2321:23
Furness is now turning to Pell’s time in Melbourne. He was appointed parish priest of Mentone in 1987, and shortly after, he was appointed as an auxiliary bishop of the of Archdiocese of Melbourne. Furness is now turning to Pell’s time in Melbourne. He was appointed parish priest of Mentone in 1987, and shortly after, he was appointed as an auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Melbourne.
During his time as auxiliary bishop, in 1996, Pell introduced the Melbourne Response, which has previously been a strong focus of the royal commission.During his time as auxiliary bishop, in 1996, Pell introduced the Melbourne Response, which has previously been a strong focus of the royal commission.
The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.
Furness asks Pell whether in his role as auxiliary bishop, he maintained a role in moving priests between parishes.Furness asks Pell whether in his role as auxiliary bishop, he maintained a role in moving priests between parishes.
Pell “Let me just say by way of background, I was an archbishop for 18 years and in the decisions that I took on personnel matters I would never think of attributing blame to either the consultors or the advisory board because I recognised that as archbishop they were my decisions. Pell: “Let me just say by way of background, I was an archbishop for 18 years and in the decisions that I took on personnel matters I would never think of attributing blame to either the consultors or the advisory board because I recognised that as archbishop they were my decisions.”
Furness: “Blame about what?”Furness: “Blame about what?”
Pell: “I... would not believe it is appropriate if, for example, I had made a wrong decision, that something didn’t work out. I didn’t think it would have been appropriate to blame my advisers for the decision that I had taken.” Pell: “I ... would not believe it is appropriate if, for example, I had made a wrong decision, that something didn’t work out. I didn’t think it would have been appropriate to blame my advisers for the decision that I had taken.”
Updated
at 9.45pm GMT
9.17pm GMT9.17pm GMT
21:1721:17
Furness is now turning her questioning to In 2015, brother Edward Dowlan. Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period. Furness is now turning her questioning to Brother Edward Dowlan. In 2015 Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period.
His victims gave evidence to the commission last week. Rather than being reported to police, Dowlan was moved from parish to parish.His victims gave evidence to the commission last week. Rather than being reported to police, Dowlan was moved from parish to parish.
Pell said he knew there were “was a generalised suggestion, accusation, there was nothing specific” about Dowlan’s abusing at the time.Pell said he knew there were “was a generalised suggestion, accusation, there was nothing specific” about Dowlan’s abusing at the time.
At this point chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan begins pressing Pell. At this point chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, begins pressing Pell.
McClellan: “You said the matter was resolved by him being moved. Correct?”McClellan: “You said the matter was resolved by him being moved. Correct?”
Pell: “I think he was moved at the end of’74.” Pell: “I think he was moved at the end of 74.”
McClellan: “Did it not cause you concern that a brother against whom you had heard rumours of sexual activity with children was dealt with by being moved from one place to another?”McClellan: “Did it not cause you concern that a brother against whom you had heard rumours of sexual activity with children was dealt with by being moved from one place to another?”
Pell. “No. One, I didn’t know exactly what he was accused of but 40 years ago or more than 40 years ago I... did not think that was unusual or inappropriate.” Pell. “No. One, I didn’t know exactly what he was accused of but 40 years ago or more than 40 years ago I ... did not think that was unusual or inappropriate.”
McClellan: “You mean it was not inappropriate to move someone who might be moved to a different location where they could continue to offend but against different children?”McClellan: “You mean it was not inappropriate to move someone who might be moved to a different location where they could continue to offend but against different children?”
Pell: “No, I don’t believe that now and I didn’t believe that then. My whole assumption would - or was that the brothers would be dealing adequately with the matter. I was not aware then of their poor record which I learnt about later in dealing with such things. I presumed that when they shifted him they would have also arranged for some appropriate help.” Pell: “No, I don’t believe that now and I didn’t believe that then. My whole assumption would – or was that the brothers would be dealing adequately with the matter. I was not aware then of their poor record which I learnt about later in dealing with such things. I presumed that when they shifted him they would have also arranged for some appropriate help.”
McClellan: “You made these assumptions but I gather that you didn’t make any inquiry to see whether your assumptions were correct?”McClellan: “You made these assumptions but I gather that you didn’t make any inquiry to see whether your assumptions were correct?”
Pell: “No, I did not.”Pell: “No, I did not.”
McClellan: “Did you tell the bishop?”McClellan: “Did you tell the bishop?”
Pel: “No, I did not.” Pell: “No, I did not.”
Updated
at 9.43pm GMT
9.09pm GMT9.09pm GMT
21:0921:09
The evidence begins, day threeThe evidence begins, day three
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is following up her line of questioning from yesterday about whether the topic of children being abused was ever brought up at consultors meetings. As one of the consultors, Pell provided advice to the Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns. Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is following up her line of questioning from yesterday about whether the topic of children being abused was ever brought up at consultors meetings. As one of the consultors, Pell provided advice to the then bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.
Remember yesterday, Furness told Pell it was “implausible” that he did not know of the abuse given the majority of the consultors, Mulkearns, parents, teachers and students did.Remember yesterday, Furness told Pell it was “implausible” that he did not know of the abuse given the majority of the consultors, Mulkearns, parents, teachers and students did.
Furness: “Your intention was to give evidence that at those meetings nothing was said that could be interpreted as sexual activity, misconduct or interference with children in abroad sense?”Furness: “Your intention was to give evidence that at those meetings nothing was said that could be interpreted as sexual activity, misconduct or interference with children in abroad sense?”
Pell: “That’s my recollection.”Pell: “That’s my recollection.”
Furness: “So can I ask you whether outside of those consultors meetings and in particular the 1982 meeting there was discussion among one or more of the consultors about what was known of complaints against [abuser and pedophile David] Ridsdale? Furness: “So can I ask you whether outside of those consultors meetings and in particular the 1982 meeting there was discussion among one or more of the consultors about what was known of complaints against [abuser and paedophile Gerald] Ridsdale?
Pell: “I wasn’t aware of such discussions.”Pell: “I wasn’t aware of such discussions.”
Updated
at 9.41pm GMT
9.03pm GMT9.03pm GMT
21:0321:03
Child sexual abuse survivors in Rome to watch Pell’s evidence have called for a global campaign of tying ribbons to fences and letterboxes to show support for abuse victims.Child sexual abuse survivors in Rome to watch Pell’s evidence have called for a global campaign of tying ribbons to fences and letterboxes to show support for abuse victims.
Survivors of clergy abuse from Ballarat have created a new Loud Fence at the Domus Australia in Rome. @abcnews pic.twitter.com/UI6efMYxLkSurvivors of clergy abuse from Ballarat have created a new Loud Fence at the Domus Australia in Rome. @abcnews pic.twitter.com/UI6efMYxLk
The campaign, called Loud Fence, began in Ballarat, with survivors and their supporters tying thousands of colourful ribbons tied to the fences surrounding Catholic schools and churches in the town.The campaign, called Loud Fence, began in Ballarat, with survivors and their supporters tying thousands of colourful ribbons tied to the fences surrounding Catholic schools and churches in the town.
Following the last round of gruelling hearings in December, the ribbons began cropping up on fences and people have not stopped adding to them since in a show of support for the survivors.Following the last round of gruelling hearings in December, the ribbons began cropping up on fences and people have not stopped adding to them since in a show of support for the survivors.
8.48pm GMT8.48pm GMT
20:4820:48
According to reports, conservative News Ltd media commentator, Andrew Bolt, has secured an exclusive interview with Pell, to be done once his evidence before the commission concludes.According to reports, conservative News Ltd media commentator, Andrew Bolt, has secured an exclusive interview with Pell, to be done once his evidence before the commission concludes.
Fairfax reports;Fairfax reports;
Viewers of Sky News Australia may have been shocked this week to find Andrew Bolt reporting on the royal commission into sex abuse from Rome.Viewers of Sky News Australia may have been shocked this week to find Andrew Bolt reporting on the royal commission into sex abuse from Rome.
The outspoken News Corp columnist has been sent to Rome as a Sky News contributor to cover Cardinal George Pell coming before the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.The outspoken News Corp columnist has been sent to Rome as a Sky News contributor to cover Cardinal George Pell coming before the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
He appeared on 2GB on Monday night with presenter Steve Price suggesting Bolt will interview Pell later in the week.He appeared on 2GB on Monday night with presenter Steve Price suggesting Bolt will interview Pell later in the week.
“Andrew, while in Rome, is hopeful and we’re assured this is going to happen for us later in the week, Andrew will have an exclusive, one-on-one interview with Cardinal Pell, the most senior Australian in the Vatican, and that will go to air on Friday morning as I understand it,” Price said before crossing to Bolt.“Andrew, while in Rome, is hopeful and we’re assured this is going to happen for us later in the week, Andrew will have an exclusive, one-on-one interview with Cardinal Pell, the most senior Australian in the Vatican, and that will go to air on Friday morning as I understand it,” Price said before crossing to Bolt.
The Australian has confirmed the news of the exclusive interview.The Australian has confirmed the news of the exclusive interview.
Sky News contributor Andrew Bolt is in Rome. 'There has been an enormous hate campaign against George Pell'. https://t.co/Wp5JzkxYhISky News contributor Andrew Bolt is in Rome. 'There has been an enormous hate campaign against George Pell'. https://t.co/Wp5JzkxYhI
8.35pm GMT8.35pm GMT
20:3520:35
Emma and Katie Foster were repeatedly sexually abused by a Catholic priest when they were young girls at Sacred Heart primary school.Emma and Katie Foster were repeatedly sexually abused by a Catholic priest when they were young girls at Sacred Heart primary school.
Their father, Anthony Foster, who is in Rome with a group of abuse survivors to watch Pell’s evidence, told media last night that he is “a broken man,” the ABC reports.Their father, Anthony Foster, who is in Rome with a group of abuse survivors to watch Pell’s evidence, told media last night that he is “a broken man,” the ABC reports.
Anthony Foster says he's disappointed #Pell seemed unwilling to discuss better support for abuse survivors. @abcnews pic.twitter.com/h2rvpjaDbIAnthony Foster says he's disappointed #Pell seemed unwilling to discuss better support for abuse survivors. @abcnews pic.twitter.com/h2rvpjaDbI
As a result of her abuse, Emma developed an eating disorder, became addicted to drugs and began self-harming.She died died at age 26 in 2008 after overdosing. Katie was hit by a drunk driver in 1999 and was left severely disabled, requiring 24-hour care.As a result of her abuse, Emma developed an eating disorder, became addicted to drugs and began self-harming.She died died at age 26 in 2008 after overdosing. Katie was hit by a drunk driver in 1999 and was left severely disabled, requiring 24-hour care.
The ABC reports;The ABC reports;
Mr Foster confronted Cardinal Pell outside the hearing at the Hotel Quirinale, saying he had given up hope the Cardinal would fix the church’s so-called Melbourne Response to the abuse scandal.Mr Foster confronted Cardinal Pell outside the hearing at the Hotel Quirinale, saying he had given up hope the Cardinal would fix the church’s so-called Melbourne Response to the abuse scandal.
“He held my hand for the whole duration of the chat that we had and I expressed to him that he was holding the hand of a broken man, and he put his other hand on me and tried to I suppose connect in some way, but I didn’t feel it,” Mr Foster said.“He held my hand for the whole duration of the chat that we had and I expressed to him that he was holding the hand of a broken man, and he put his other hand on me and tried to I suppose connect in some way, but I didn’t feel it,” Mr Foster said.
“Quest over. It was the smooth Cardinal Pell, not the Cardinal Pell we saw on the stand.”“Quest over. It was the smooth Cardinal Pell, not the Cardinal Pell we saw on the stand.”
You can read my interview with Foster, written before he gave evidence before the royal commission in 2014, here.You can read my interview with Foster, written before he gave evidence before the royal commission in 2014, here.
UpdatedUpdated
at 8.36pm GMTat 8.36pm GMT
8.22pm GMT8.22pm GMT
20:2220:22
Welcome to our live coverage of the third day of Cardinal George Pell’s evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse.Welcome to our live coverage of the third day of Cardinal George Pell’s evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse.
It follows an explosive day of evidence yesterday led by questioning from counsel assisting, Gail Furness, with some of Pell’s responses to her questioning prompting gasps from those in the room on both the Sydney and Rome end of the proceedings.It follows an explosive day of evidence yesterday led by questioning from counsel assisting, Gail Furness, with some of Pell’s responses to her questioning prompting gasps from those in the room on both the Sydney and Rome end of the proceedings.
For a recap of this, you can read Guardian writer David Marr’s excellent analysis here. Marr writes that Pell wasn’t much interested in stories of abuse by priests, which was lucky for his career;For a recap of this, you can read Guardian writer David Marr’s excellent analysis here. Marr writes that Pell wasn’t much interested in stories of abuse by priests, which was lucky for his career;
From Pell’s evidence on the second day of his Roman cross-examination there emerged a picture of an ambitious and capable young priest who decided, early on, to steer clear of this dangerous issue.From Pell’s evidence on the second day of his Roman cross-examination there emerged a picture of an ambitious and capable young priest who decided, early on, to steer clear of this dangerous issue.
On Monday Pell admitted knowing bits and pieces about some of the offenders and some of their crimes in Ballarat. He earned credibility for that. But on Tuesday he swore blind he knew nothing about the worst of them all: Ridsdale.On Monday Pell admitted knowing bits and pieces about some of the offenders and some of their crimes in Ballarat. He earned credibility for that. But on Tuesday he swore blind he knew nothing about the worst of them all: Ridsdale.
Fellow priests who knew the truth told him nothing. Complaints rife in several parishes never reached him. And his bishop, Ronald Mulkearns, never let him know about the complaints of Ridsdale’s abuse he had been fielding for a decade.Fellow priests who knew the truth told him nothing. Complaints rife in several parishes never reached him. And his bishop, Ronald Mulkearns, never let him know about the complaints of Ridsdale’s abuse he had been fielding for a decade.
Pell called Mulkearns’ silence “a gross deception”.Pell called Mulkearns’ silence “a gross deception”.
But the devastating admission drawn from Pell by Gail Furness SC, counsel assisting the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, was that he never bothered to ask.But the devastating admission drawn from Pell by Gail Furness SC, counsel assisting the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, was that he never bothered to ask.
“It was a sad story and of not much interest to me,” he told the commission. By the late 1970s he was a busy priest running the Catholic Institute of Education. “I had no reason to turn my mind to the evils Ridsdale had perpetrated.”“It was a sad story and of not much interest to me,” he told the commission. By the late 1970s he was a busy priest running the Catholic Institute of Education. “I had no reason to turn my mind to the evils Ridsdale had perpetrated.”
Furness will no doubt press Pell just as hard today, after yesterday telling Pell it was “implausible” that he, as a consultor to bishop Mulkearns and an assistant priest, did not know that Ridsdale was abusing children.Furness will no doubt press Pell just as hard today, after yesterday telling Pell it was “implausible” that he, as a consultor to bishop Mulkearns and an assistant priest, did not know that Ridsdale was abusing children.
Melissa Davey with you here. We’re about half an hour away from the commission commencing. You can share your thoughts with me then on Twitter or on Facebook.Melissa Davey with you here. We’re about half an hour away from the commission commencing. You can share your thoughts with me then on Twitter or on Facebook.
Stay with us.Stay with us.