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Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live | Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day two – live |
(35 minutes later) | |
10.33pm GMT | |
22:33 | |
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is not letting Pell off on his comments that he did share in the widespread knowledge that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children within Ballarat parishes. Especially given he was a link between the parish and senior figures in his role as consultor. | |
Furness is trying to understand how that was the case Pell did not know. Her line of questioning is clearly frustrating Pell, who is growing impatient and who encouraged Furness to read her documents. | |
Furness: “And in your own language, you were the essential link between the bishop and the parents,teacher, children and principals of Catholic schools?” | |
Pell: “I find that an extraordinary claim in the light of the discussion that we had yesterday where we did a detailed study of the passage where it was pointed out very clearly that the Episcopal Vicar was one part of an essential linking between the bishop and the educational institutions and that linkage was a religious linkage.” | |
Furness: “Ultimately, it will be a matter for commissioners as to decide the meaning of your words in that document,Cardinal. Can I turn now to- | |
Pell: Could I suggest that for both of us the obligation is to study the words in the document and to conclude from that?” | |
Furness: “Thank you, Cardinal. I suspect some lawyers have an understanding of that concept.” | |
Updated | |
at 10.33pm GMT | |
10.23pm GMT | |
22:23 | |
McClellan; "We have to determine a very serious issue". | |
Justice Peter McClellan is interrogating Pell on why senior figures in the church would have known that Gerald Ridsdale, who committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, would have known about his abuse while Pell did not. | |
McClellan says; “I don’t understand why the Bishop would choose to deceive you or lie to you, a member of his consultors, about Ridsdale’s behaviour when it was common knowledge in at least two of the parishes. Given that it was common knowledge amongst many people why would he choose to deceive you?” | |
Pell: “Because he would realise that I didn’t know and he did not want me to share in his culpability and also I think he would not have wanted to mention it to me and some - at least some other members of the consultors because we were at the very minimum we would have asked questions about the propriety of such a practice.” | |
McClellan: “What is wrong with that? That was your job, wasn’t it?” | |
Pell: “I’m trying to explain why he didn’t do it. Of course it was our job and almost certainly it would have been done.” | |
McClellan: You say you speak of the bishop’s culpability. If we were to come to the view that you did know, you would be culpable too, wouldn’t you? | |
Pell: “That’s correct.” | |
McClellan: So we have- We have to determine a very serious issue, don’t we?” | |
Updated | |
at 10.26pm GMT | |
10.17pm GMT | |
22:17 | |
"We work within a framework of Christian moral teaching" | |
Furness is really pressing Pell on how he could not have known that Ridsdale was abusing dozens of children given that it was common knowledge within the diocese of Ballarat, given that Pell was a senior figure within the diocese as a consultor and assistant priest with direct access to the Bishop, and given the Bishop, Ronald Mulkearns and many other senior figures, knew of the abuse. | |
Surely, given priests are “human”, Furness says, priests would have talked to each other about the abusing, including to Pell, she says. | |
Pell replies; “Human beings in different categories have very different approaches to these matters. We work within the framework of Christian moral teaching.” | |
[There are scoffs heard on the Sydney end of the hearing] | |
Pell: “Would you like me to continue?” | |
Furness: “I would indeed.” | |
Pell: “We work within a framework of Christian moral teaching or certainly we should. And discussion of the secret faults of others is not encouraged. | |
Furness: “The problems with Ridsdale were not secret, Cardinal. They were known, the evidence says, by two communities... Ridsdale says there must have been talk about town. Now, to suggest, Cardinal, as you have repeatedly, that knowledge about Ridsdale was secret is just not true.” | |
The hole is getting deeper. #Pell #CARoyalComm | |
Some rather impressive questioning taking place by Commissioner and SC #Pell seems to be uncertain as to which way is up (rooted) | |
Updated | |
at 10.20pm GMT | |
10.11pm GMT | |
22:11 | |
The commission chair, Justice Peter McClellan, who is widely respected by child sex abuse survivors, appears to be growing impatient with Pell. He repeatedly presses Pell to “answer my question”. | |
McClellan: “Why were you were sitting at that meeting, why did you think that Ridsdale had been moved in this irregular way?” | |
Pell: “Because obviously there were a series of difficulties but it certainly was not stated that those difficulties touched on paedophilia and crimes.” | |
McClellan: “Did you ask what the difficulties were?” | |
Pell: “I can’t remember specifically asking. But there would have been some generalised explanation.” | |
McClellan: “Generalised explanation - could you help me to understand what that might be?” | |
Pell: “Well, there might have been difficulties with the school principal, there might have been difficulties of personalities, there might have been a difficulty of an inappropriate adult relationship. There could have simply been that the man was perpetually restless. These are all possibilities.” | |
McClellan: “Did someone tell you that those possibilities had materialised in Ridsdale’s case?” | |
Pell: “They certainly did not mention that the reason he was being shipped was because of paedophilia.” | |
McClellan: “Cardinal, would you answer my question, please?” | |
Pell: “Could you repeat it, please?” | |
McClellan: “Yes. Did someone tell you that the possibilities you referred to had materialised in Ridsdale’s case?” | |
Pell: “I can’t remember exactly what was said. But it would have been quite clear that there were difficulties of some sort.” | |
Updated | |
at 10.15pm GMT | |
10.06pm GMT | |
22:06 | |
"It's hard to imagine a greater deception" | |
The head of the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, Justice Peter McClellan, has interjected to ask his own questions of Pell. As discussed in the post below, Pell was one of the consultors appointed to give advice to the Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns. | |
McClellan points out that all of the consultors seemed to know that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children, except for him and one other consultor. | |
McClellan: “And you say that none of those people shared with you any knowledge they had about Ridsdale?” | |
Pell: “That is correct and these matters were not discussed at the consultors meetings and I think that is very close to the unanimous evidence of the consultors. | |
McClellan: “Cardinal, as I understand your evidence, the consequence is you say the bishop [Mulkearns] deceived you, is that right?” | |
Pell: “Unfortunately correct.” | |
McClellan: “It is surprising, isn’t it, that a bishop and a senior cleric who joined with you in a committee to advise in relation to appointments would deceive a member of that committee? | |
Pell: “It is surprising.” | |
McClellan: “It’s hard to imagine a greater deception, isn’t it?” | |
Pell: Well, it probably would be possible to imagine a greater deception, but it’s a gross deception.” | |
Updated | |
at 10.09pm GMT | |
9.57pm GMT | 9.57pm GMT |
21:57 | 21:57 |
For part of the time he was a priest in Ballarat, Pell was one of the consultors to Bishop Ronald Mulkearns, who was head of the diocese. His was appointed to the role in 1977 and it included giving advice to Mulkearns on various diocese matters, including the appointments and movements of priests to parishes, and changing of people’s roles. | For part of the time he was a priest in Ballarat, Pell was one of the consultors to Bishop Ronald Mulkearns, who was head of the diocese. His was appointed to the role in 1977 and it included giving advice to Mulkearns on various diocese matters, including the appointments and movements of priests to parishes, and changing of people’s roles. |
Pell was a consultor during a period of priests sexually and physically abusing children, and those priests being moved between parishes. Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is now turning her attention to Pell’s consultor role, and the kind of conversations that took place about the movement of priests. Pell has always maintained he was never told that some of the priests transferred between parishes were paedophiles and that they were being moved for this reason. | Pell was a consultor during a period of priests sexually and physically abusing children, and those priests being moved between parishes. Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is now turning her attention to Pell’s consultor role, and the kind of conversations that took place about the movement of priests. Pell has always maintained he was never told that some of the priests transferred between parishes were paedophiles and that they were being moved for this reason. |
“Consultors have an obligation to share the knowledge they have,” Pell tells the commission. | “Consultors have an obligation to share the knowledge they have,” Pell tells the commission. |
Furness is pressing Pell on why Father Gerald Ridsdale had his role changed so frequently, and was also moved frequently between parishes. The commission has previously heard paedophile priests, rather than being reported to police, were simply moved to other parishes. | Furness is pressing Pell on why Father Gerald Ridsdale had his role changed so frequently, and was also moved frequently between parishes. The commission has previously heard paedophile priests, rather than being reported to police, were simply moved to other parishes. |
Furness: “So it’s the case, isn’t it, that if he [Gerald Ridsdale] went from being parish priest to administrator, that would be a sign that there was something wrong with his ministry? Doesn’t that follow?” | Furness: “So it’s the case, isn’t it, that if he [Gerald Ridsdale] went from being parish priest to administrator, that would be a sign that there was something wrong with his ministry? Doesn’t that follow?” |
Pell: “He would not go from being parish priest to administrator in the same parish. If he was parish priest and was then regularly appointed or was appointed as administrator, it would be a sign that there was some sort of problem or difficulty, yes.” | Pell: “He would not go from being parish priest to administrator in the same parish. If he was parish priest and was then regularly appointed or was appointed as administrator, it would be a sign that there was some sort of problem or difficulty, yes.” |
Furness: “Well Cardinal, it’s the case, isn’t it, he went from parish priest to administrator and then back to parish priest again, there was clearly a period between each of those parish priests appointments where there was some problem with him? Isn’t that clear? | Furness: “Well Cardinal, it’s the case, isn’t it, he went from parish priest to administrator and then back to parish priest again, there was clearly a period between each of those parish priests appointments where there was some problem with him? Isn’t that clear? |
Pell: “No, it’s not entirely clear to us. It wasn’t entirely clear then.” | Pell: “No, it’s not entirely clear to us. It wasn’t entirely clear then.” |
Updated | Updated |
at 9.59pm GMT | at 9.59pm GMT |
9.43pm GMT | 9.43pm GMT |
21:43 | 21:43 |
Looks like those gasps of shock came from the Sydney end, not from Rome. | Looks like those gasps of shock came from the Sydney end, not from Rome. |
Reaction to Card Pell's comment that Ridsdale's story "wasn't of much interest to me" was first angry reaction from gallery@australian | Reaction to Card Pell's comment that Ridsdale's story "wasn't of much interest to me" was first angry reaction from gallery@australian |
Room silent in Rome. Important to correct given spotlight on everyone here https://t.co/XTz3RRc8BE | Room silent in Rome. Important to correct given spotlight on everyone here https://t.co/XTz3RRc8BE |
Cardinal Pell taken aback when gasps of shock from Sydney room are heard in Rome room. | Cardinal Pell taken aback when gasps of shock from Sydney room are heard in Rome room. |
9.41pm GMT | 9.41pm GMT |
21:41 | 21:41 |
Another telling exchange | Another telling exchange |
Furness is trying to get Pell to be clear on who he believes was and was not responsible for protecting children in the care of the church at schools and other institutions. Furness says that surely all adults have a responsibility: | Furness is trying to get Pell to be clear on who he believes was and was not responsible for protecting children in the care of the church at schools and other institutions. Furness says that surely all adults have a responsibility: |
“So who isn’t responsible in the church to ensure the safety of children who are taken in by the church either as parishioners or as altar boys or in any other way operate within the church? Who isn’t responsible?” | “So who isn’t responsible in the church to ensure the safety of children who are taken in by the church either as parishioners or as altar boys or in any other way operate within the church? Who isn’t responsible?” |
Pell: “Well it’s very difficult to answer these questions where we swing from one extreme to the other. Everybody has some sort of general responsibility. Individuals and especially office holders have particular responsibility for their areas of concern. | Pell: “Well it’s very difficult to answer these questions where we swing from one extreme to the other. Everybody has some sort of general responsibility. Individuals and especially office holders have particular responsibility for their areas of concern. |
Furness: “So if it was the case that a parish priest heard of events dangerous to children happening in a neighbouring parish or a parish distant from them, based on what you’ve said they’ve got no responsibility in relation to the children who are in danger? Is that right?” | Furness: “So if it was the case that a parish priest heard of events dangerous to children happening in a neighbouring parish or a parish distant from them, based on what you’ve said they’ve got no responsibility in relation to the children who are in danger? Is that right?” |
Pell: “Well very obviously I said nothing of the sort. I said that a person from a neighbouring parish or a distant parish has less responsibility for the care of children in those distant parishes than he does in his own. I’m not suggesting for a minute, especially in a neighbouring parish, that a neighbouring parish priest would have no responsibility at all. I never suggested that.” | Pell: “Well very obviously I said nothing of the sort. I said that a person from a neighbouring parish or a distant parish has less responsibility for the care of children in those distant parishes than he does in his own. I’m not suggesting for a minute, especially in a neighbouring parish, that a neighbouring parish priest would have no responsibility at all. I never suggested that.” |
Updated | Updated |
at 9.48pm GMT | at 9.48pm GMT |
9.37pm GMT | 9.37pm GMT |
21:37 | 21:37 |
From reporter Ben Doherty who is in the hearing in Sydney; | From reporter Ben Doherty who is in the hearing in Sydney; |
“Clumsy from Pell on the stand – describing his knowledge of whether it was common knowledge that Ridsdale was abusing children – drew audible gasps from those in the room in Rome.” | “Clumsy from Pell on the stand – describing his knowledge of whether it was common knowledge that Ridsdale was abusing children – drew audible gasps from those in the room in Rome.” |
Updated | Updated |
at 9.47pm GMT | at 9.47pm GMT |
9.36pm GMT | 9.36pm GMT |
21:36 | 21:36 |
Audible shock heard in the room as Pell says story of abuse "wasn't of much interest to me" | Audible shock heard in the room as Pell says story of abuse "wasn't of much interest to me" |
Quite an extraordinary exchange has occurred between counsel assisting, Gail Furness and Cardinal George Pell, prompting audible gasps in the room. It’s unclear if those gasps came from Hotel Quirinale in Rome, where survivors are watching Pell, or in Sydney, where the commission is sitting. | Quite an extraordinary exchange has occurred between counsel assisting, Gail Furness and Cardinal George Pell, prompting audible gasps in the room. It’s unclear if those gasps came from Hotel Quirinale in Rome, where survivors are watching Pell, or in Sydney, where the commission is sitting. |
Furness: “Did you subsequently know, not that [paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale] he offended at Inglewood, leave that to one side, but that it was common knowledge of his interfering with children at Inglewood? | Furness: “Did you subsequently know, not that [paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale] he offended at Inglewood, leave that to one side, but that it was common knowledge of his interfering with children at Inglewood? |
Pell: “I couldn’t say that I ever knew that everyone knew. I knew a number of people did. I didn’t know whether it was common knowledge or whether it wasn’t. It’s a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.” | Pell: “I couldn’t say that I ever knew that everyone knew. I knew a number of people did. I didn’t know whether it was common knowledge or whether it wasn’t. It’s a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.” |
Furness: “What wasn’t of much interest to you, Cardinal?” | Furness: “What wasn’t of much interest to you, Cardinal?” |
Pell: “The suffering, of course, was real and I very much regret that but I had no reason to turn my mind to the extent of the evils that Ridsdale had perpetrated.” | Pell: “The suffering, of course, was real and I very much regret that but I had no reason to turn my mind to the extent of the evils that Ridsdale had perpetrated.” |
Furness: “In order, Cardinal, to not have the offences and misconduct of the past repeated, doesn’t one need to understand the circumstances in which those offences were committed and the structure and personnel that permitted that to occur? Isn’t it the case, Cardinal, that every adult in the Church is responsible for ensuring the safety of children going forward? It’s not a question of structural responsibility, it’s a question of being an adult and being responsible, isn’t it, Cardinal?” | Furness: “In order, Cardinal, to not have the offences and misconduct of the past repeated, doesn’t one need to understand the circumstances in which those offences were committed and the structure and personnel that permitted that to occur? Isn’t it the case, Cardinal, that every adult in the Church is responsible for ensuring the safety of children going forward? It’s not a question of structural responsibility, it’s a question of being an adult and being responsible, isn’t it, Cardinal?” |
Pell: “Well, an individual can only do what it is possible to do and everybody has a responsibility to try to preserve the moral health of the community in ways that are real and practical.” | Pell: “Well, an individual can only do what it is possible to do and everybody has a responsibility to try to preserve the moral health of the community in ways that are real and practical.” |
Updated | Updated |
at 9.45pm GMT | at 9.45pm GMT |
9.31pm GMT | 9.31pm GMT |
21:31 | 21:31 |
Furness is going much further today into paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children across parishes for decades. Ridsdale is now in prison. His victims were as young as four. Furness is saying his abusing was known to many. | Furness is going much further today into paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children across parishes for decades. Ridsdale is now in prison. His victims were as young as four. Furness is saying his abusing was known to many. |
Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile. | Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile. |
Furness: “I was asking you about knowledge you had that Ridsdale was interfering with children in Inglewood and you said not at that stage and then I asked you, at a later stage?” | Furness: “I was asking you about knowledge you had that Ridsdale was interfering with children in Inglewood and you said not at that stage and then I asked you, at a later stage?” |
Pell: “Yes.” | Pell: “Yes.” |
Furness: “When?” | Furness: “When?” |
Pell: “Well, I couldn’t say precisely but after he was tried and jailed.” | Pell: “Well, I couldn’t say precisely but after he was tried and jailed.” |
Furness: “So after 1993?” | Furness: “So after 1993?” |
Pell: “Yes.” | Pell: “Yes.” |
Furness: “And is it the case in 1993, or after that year, you understood that he had been committing offences for which he was now convicted and sentenced, is that what you understood in 1993 or thereafter?” | Furness: “And is it the case in 1993, or after that year, you understood that he had been committing offences for which he was now convicted and sentenced, is that what you understood in 1993 or thereafter?” |
Pell: “I did.” | Pell: “I did.” |
Furness: “Now that’s a different question from the one I asked you, Cardinal. It was whether you had knowledge that it was common knowledge at Inglewood at that time?” | Furness: “Now that’s a different question from the one I asked you, Cardinal. It was whether you had knowledge that it was common knowledge at Inglewood at that time?” |
Pell: “I did not know that it was common knowledge at Inglewood at that time because if I’d known that I would have known that there were offences. Possible offences.” | Pell: “I did not know that it was common knowledge at Inglewood at that time because if I’d known that I would have known that there were offences. Possible offences.” |
Updated | Updated |
at 9.47pm GMT | at 9.47pm GMT |
9.23pm GMT | 9.23pm GMT |
21:23 | 21:23 |
Indeed. | Indeed. |
"According to today’s standards that would be clearly insufficient, it was then" #Pell on transfer of offending priests without counselling | "According to today’s standards that would be clearly insufficient, it was then" #Pell on transfer of offending priests without counselling |