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| Cardinal George Pell testifies to child sex abuse royal commission from Rome – as it happened | |
| (about 3 hours later) | |
| 2.15am GMT | 2.15am GMT |
| 02:15 | 02:15 |
| As it happened - Cardinal George Pell gives evidence from Rome | As it happened - Cardinal George Pell gives evidence from Rome |
| Reporter Ben Doherty has been in the commission hearings in Sydney and has filed a summary of the morning of evidence. He writes that; | Reporter Ben Doherty has been in the commission hearings in Sydney and has filed a summary of the morning of evidence. He writes that; |
| You can read Ben’s full story here. | You can read Ben’s full story here. |
| We’re going to close off our live coverage of the royal commission for now. I’ll be back reporting live from 8am tomorrow morning, when Cardinal George Pell again appears via videolink from Rome. You can share your thoughts with me then on Twitter or on Facebook. | We’re going to close off our live coverage of the royal commission for now. I’ll be back reporting live from 8am tomorrow morning, when Cardinal George Pell again appears via videolink from Rome. You can share your thoughts with me then on Twitter or on Facebook. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.18am GMT | at 2.18am GMT |
| 2.06am GMT | 2.06am GMT |
| 02:06 | 02:06 |
| Video; Pell is asked about what he knew of abuse in Ballarat | Video; Pell is asked about what he knew of abuse in Ballarat |
| “My memory might be playing me false.” | “My memory might be playing me false.” |
| 1.47am GMT | 1.47am GMT |
| 01:47 | 01:47 |
| Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has spoken to a few more of the survivors in Rome. Here’s her update; | Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has spoken to a few more of the survivors in Rome. Here’s her update; |
| Among survivors, there was a sense of disappointment among some - as well as anger - and of anticipation that there was still far more in store for Pell. | Among survivors, there was a sense of disappointment among some - as well as anger - and of anticipation that there was still far more in store for Pell. |
| Anthony Foster, whose two daughters, Emma and Katie, were abused by a pedophile priest, said the solicitor has clearly used her four hours with Pell to set the groundwork for a few more days of testimony. | Anthony Foster, whose two daughters, Emma and Katie, were abused by a pedophile priest, said the solicitor has clearly used her four hours with Pell to set the groundwork for a few more days of testimony. |
| “There was a clear establishment that everyone around him knew,” Foster said. | “There was a clear establishment that everyone around him knew,” Foster said. |
| Paul Levey, an abuse survivor, said he hoped the commission still had some “trump cards” up their sleeve. There was a worry, at least among some, that what is perceived as the “last crack” at Pell might not reveal everything they want to hear, in part because they see Pell as exceedingly sharp and careful with his words. | Paul Levey, an abuse survivor, said he hoped the commission still had some “trump cards” up their sleeve. There was a worry, at least among some, that what is perceived as the “last crack” at Pell might not reveal everything they want to hear, in part because they see Pell as exceedingly sharp and careful with his words. |
| Andrew Collins, who survived sexual abuse by four separate men when he was a child in Ballarat - when he was 7, 11, 12, and 14, by a teacher, a priest, and two monks - said he was most looking forward to survivors’ own solicitors putting questions to Pell. | Andrew Collins, who survived sexual abuse by four separate men when he was a child in Ballarat - when he was 7, 11, 12, and 14, by a teacher, a priest, and two monks - said he was most looking forward to survivors’ own solicitors putting questions to Pell. |
| His own devastating history was not all that unusual, he said, given that most victims had been abused by various people at the time. | His own devastating history was not all that unusual, he said, given that most victims had been abused by various people at the time. |
| “Nearly every child would have come into contact with a pedophile - and not just Catholics - but they laid a foundation,” he said. | “Nearly every child would have come into contact with a pedophile - and not just Catholics - but they laid a foundation,” he said. |
| 1.43am GMT | 1.43am GMT |
| 01:43 | 01:43 |
| Abuse survivor, Stephen Woods, has sent through some thoughts from Rome. You can read more about his story here. | Abuse survivor, Stephen Woods, has sent through some thoughts from Rome. You can read more about his story here. |
| There was so much media here in the room, so much interest by international media. There were huge numbers in the room. A lot of the survivors are frustrated, they want to hear Pell say that he really messed up. What we want to see is him being really candid. | There was so much media here in the room, so much interest by international media. There were huge numbers in the room. A lot of the survivors are frustrated, they want to hear Pell say that he really messed up. What we want to see is him being really candid. |
| 1.22am GMT | 1.22am GMT |
| 01:22 | 01:22 |
| I’ve spoken to abuse survivor and head of the Care Leavers Australia Network [CLAN], Leonie Sheedy, who drove from Geelong to Sydney to sit-in on the hearing. | I’ve spoken to abuse survivor and head of the Care Leavers Australia Network [CLAN], Leonie Sheedy, who drove from Geelong to Sydney to sit-in on the hearing. |
| Sheedy and her group of survivors, who she affectionately refers to as “clannies,” have travelled to almost every hearing of the royal commission since it first began investigating institutional abuse in 2013. | Sheedy and her group of survivors, who she affectionately refers to as “clannies,” have travelled to almost every hearing of the royal commission since it first began investigating institutional abuse in 2013. |
| Protestors @CLAN_AU have brought their message to Sydney for #Pell @CARoyalComm hearing. pic.twitter.com/Sf3A76LaBT | Protestors @CLAN_AU have brought their message to Sydney for #Pell @CARoyalComm hearing. pic.twitter.com/Sf3A76LaBT |
| “I think that it’s very interesting that Pell could describe in detail the rooms where he lived in Ballarat, and the buildings, and he could remind Furness about exactly how far Swan Hill was from Mildura, but when it came to pedophile priests suddenly he just didn’t know anything,” Sheedy says. | “I think that it’s very interesting that Pell could describe in detail the rooms where he lived in Ballarat, and the buildings, and he could remind Furness about exactly how far Swan Hill was from Mildura, but when it came to pedophile priests suddenly he just didn’t know anything,” Sheedy says. |
| “I also found it unbelievable that Pell said boys swimming in the nude with their superiors did not register as a problem to him.” | “I also found it unbelievable that Pell said boys swimming in the nude with their superiors did not register as a problem to him.” |
| Sheedy says she hopes that in the next few days, Furness presses Pell about what action he took when he finally did become aware of the child sexual abuse that had occurred within the Diocese of Ballarat, even if he did not know about it while he worked there. | Sheedy says she hopes that in the next few days, Furness presses Pell about what action he took when he finally did become aware of the child sexual abuse that had occurred within the Diocese of Ballarat, even if he did not know about it while he worked there. |
| Eight CLAN members attended the Sydney end of the hearings, she said. It was an emotional day for them, because one of their members, a 71 year-old abuse survivor, had died overnight. | Eight CLAN members attended the Sydney end of the hearings, she said. It was an emotional day for them, because one of their members, a 71 year-old abuse survivor, had died overnight. |
| “We tied a black ribbon outside the court and held hands and remembered all those who died in care, after they left care, and those who took their own lives,” Sheedy said. | “We tied a black ribbon outside the court and held hands and remembered all those who died in care, after they left care, and those who took their own lives,” Sheedy said. |
| Black ribbon #GaryO'Neil 71yo died 3am #Wyong #Hospital 2day G was in #StVincents #Orphanage #Westmead #NSW #RIP pic.twitter.com/XwTmFwM3AF | Black ribbon #GaryO'Neil 71yo died 3am #Wyong #Hospital 2day G was in #StVincents #Orphanage #Westmead #NSW #RIP pic.twitter.com/XwTmFwM3AF |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.34am GMT | at 1.34am GMT |
| 1.15am GMT | 1.15am GMT |
| 01:15 | 01:15 |
| Some reaction to the morning of evidence from Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome; | Some reaction to the morning of evidence from Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome; |
| “Observers were standing but remained in place as Pell slowly walked up the aisle toward the door after his testimony concluded.Survivors said he attempted to make eye contact with at least one, but that they diverted their gaze. Pell shook hands with two journalists before heading out the door. | “Observers were standing but remained in place as Pell slowly walked up the aisle toward the door after his testimony concluded.Survivors said he attempted to make eye contact with at least one, but that they diverted their gaze. Pell shook hands with two journalists before heading out the door. |
| “I’m a bit pissed off,” said Dominic Ridsdale, who was abused by his uncle, the notorious pedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale. “A bit angry. | “I’m a bit pissed off,” said Dominic Ridsdale, who was abused by his uncle, the notorious pedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale. “A bit angry. |
| “He’s sharp in some subjects and selective in others,” he said. | “He’s sharp in some subjects and selective in others,” he said. |
| Another survivor, Paul Levey, said he hoped that solicitors had some “trump cards” up their sleeve, “It was disgusting the way he said the church ‘mucked up’, like he was talking about naughty little kids at school. Seeing him get escorted threw us back a bit. | Another survivor, Paul Levey, said he hoped that solicitors had some “trump cards” up their sleeve, “It was disgusting the way he said the church ‘mucked up’, like he was talking about naughty little kids at school. Seeing him get escorted threw us back a bit. |
| We had to walk through the media scrum and he went through the back door. I’m glad he walked past everyone on the way out,” Levey said. | We had to walk through the media scrum and he went through the back door. I’m glad he walked past everyone on the way out,” Levey said. |
| 1.01am GMT | 1.01am GMT |
| 01:01 | 01:01 |
| The commission adjourns | The commission adjourns |
| The commission has adjourned for the morning, and Pell will again appear tomorrow morning at 8am eastern states time. His evidence is expected to go over four half-days. | The commission has adjourned for the morning, and Pell will again appear tomorrow morning at 8am eastern states time. His evidence is expected to go over four half-days. |
| Furness finished by asking about Father Dan Torpy, who had a role counselling priests in the church who were known or suspected to be abusing children. She asked Pell about what he knew of this set-up, and if he ever referred any priests on for counselling. | Furness finished by asking about Father Dan Torpy, who had a role counselling priests in the church who were known or suspected to be abusing children. She asked Pell about what he knew of this set-up, and if he ever referred any priests on for counselling. |
| “I don’t think I did,” Pell said. There weren’t many counselling services available at that time for abusers, he said. | “I don’t think I did,” Pell said. There weren’t many counselling services available at that time for abusers, he said. |
| I’ll post reaction from survivors in Australia and Rome shortly. | I’ll post reaction from survivors in Australia and Rome shortly. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.02am GMT | at 1.02am GMT |
| 12.47am GMT | 12.47am GMT |
| 00:47 | 00:47 |
| Pell tells Furness that the 1960s were a “turbulent time” for the Catholic church. | Pell tells Furness that the 1960s were a “turbulent time” for the Catholic church. |
| This was the ‘60s. We had the Vatican Council and you would remember at the start of the ‘60s we had the invention of the contraceptive pill which has provoked a social revolution. | This was the ‘60s. We had the Vatican Council and you would remember at the start of the ‘60s we had the invention of the contraceptive pill which has provoked a social revolution. |
| The 1960s were "a difficult time" Cardinal Pell says. The Pill, the sexual revolution... | The 1960s were "a difficult time" Cardinal Pell says. The Pill, the sexual revolution... |
| 12.42am GMT | 12.42am GMT |
| 00:42 | 00:42 |
| The commission is now turning its attention back to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale. | The commission is now turning its attention back to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale. |
| Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat, the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse has previously heard. He is now in prison. | Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat, the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse has previously heard. He is now in prison. |
| Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile. | Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile. |
| Furness: “Did anything come to your attention when you were in Swan Hill about Father Ridsdale and innuendo, gossip, rumours about sexual misconduct with children?” | Furness: “Did anything come to your attention when you were in Swan Hill about Father Ridsdale and innuendo, gossip, rumours about sexual misconduct with children?” |
| Pell: “No.” | Pell: “No.” |
| Furness: “No rumours about him at all?” | Furness: “No rumours about him at all?” |
| Pell: “No rumours of sexual misconduct.” | Pell: “No rumours of sexual misconduct.” |
| 12.37am GMT | 12.37am GMT |
| 00:37 | 00:37 |
| Many people knew of the abuse, but Pell maintains he did not | Many people knew of the abuse, but Pell maintains he did not |
| Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is running Pell through the long list of people who knew about abuse occurring within the Diocese of Ballarat. Pell has maintained despite this widespread knowledge, he did not know about child sexual abuse definitively occurring within the diocese while he was an assistant priest at Ballarat East. | Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is running Pell through the long list of people who knew about abuse occurring within the Diocese of Ballarat. Pell has maintained despite this widespread knowledge, he did not know about child sexual abuse definitively occurring within the diocese while he was an assistant priest at Ballarat East. |
| Furness: “Cardinal, it seems doesn’t it, that there was knowledge around Ballarat East about the offending of a number of brothers, that’s right?” | Furness: “Cardinal, it seems doesn’t it, that there was knowledge around Ballarat East about the offending of a number of brothers, that’s right?” |
| Pell: “Yes, there was some knowledge, you’ve demonstrated that.” | Pell: “Yes, there was some knowledge, you’ve demonstrated that.” |
| Furness: The knowledge was held by a range of people, there were students who had the knowledge,you’d agree with that?” | Furness: The knowledge was held by a range of people, there were students who had the knowledge,you’d agree with that?” |
| Pell: “Some students, yes.” | Pell: “Some students, yes.” |
| Furness continued that there were also teachers, principals, and parents who knew what was going on. | Furness continued that there were also teachers, principals, and parents who knew what was going on. |
| Furness: “From the material I’ve taken you to, you’d agree wouldn’t you that the knowledge of the sexual offending by Christian Brothers at St Alpius school and St Pat’s school was known by a significant number in the community. Would you agree with that? | Furness: “From the material I’ve taken you to, you’d agree wouldn’t you that the knowledge of the sexual offending by Christian Brothers at St Alpius school and St Pat’s school was known by a significant number in the community. Would you agree with that? |
| Pell: “I would agree that it was known to all the people whom you’ve mentioned and they do constitute a significant number.” | Pell: “I would agree that it was known to all the people whom you’ve mentioned and they do constitute a significant number.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.38am GMT | at 12.38am GMT |
| 12.30am GMT | 12.30am GMT |
| 00:30 | 00:30 |
| Some reactions from Twitter; | Some reactions from Twitter; |
| #Pell getting visibly annoyed."No such recollection" "No such recollection"Inconceivable that he wouldn't know about abuse. #ABCNews24 | #Pell getting visibly annoyed."No such recollection" "No such recollection"Inconceivable that he wouldn't know about abuse. #ABCNews24 |
| Infractions.Eccentricities.Indiscretions.Misbehaviour.Say what you like about #Pell, he has a great way with euphemisms for molestation. | Infractions.Eccentricities.Indiscretions.Misbehaviour.Say what you like about #Pell, he has a great way with euphemisms for molestation. |
| It's 1am in Rome and bleary eyes are watching 4th hour of #Pell evidence. Total silence from abuse survivors, listening intently. @abcnews | It's 1am in Rome and bleary eyes are watching 4th hour of #Pell evidence. Total silence from abuse survivors, listening intently. @abcnews |
| 12.26am GMT | 12.26am GMT |
| 00:26 | 00:26 |
| Furness asks Pell if he was told of complaints made about Brother Dowlan abusing children. | Furness asks Pell if he was told of complaints made about Brother Dowlan abusing children. |
| Pell: “No.” | Pell: “No.” |
| Furness: “No?” | Furness: “No?” |
| Pell: “No, the conduct that was brought to my attention was unspecified except that it was somehow wrong or untoward.” | Pell: “No, the conduct that was brought to my attention was unspecified except that it was somehow wrong or untoward.” |
| Furness: “What about Brother Dowlan putting his hands down boys’ trousers?” | Furness: “What about Brother Dowlan putting his hands down boys’ trousers?” |
| Pell: “No.” | Pell: “No.” |